Alternative to weekly water changes

[sidel]

Ok, newbie here . I've tried search, but it didn't quite give me the answers I was looking for.

 

Is there a method to reduce the need for weekly water changes? In one post (I can't even remember clearly), but someone had mentioned sumps and fuges. Did a search, but nothing turned up. Can anyone explain how that works? Perhaps I just got confused with the statement. I guess I'm just looking for a self-sustaining tank that only requires little maintenance (little to no water change) as soon as it's established. I'm planning on a 10 gallon nano. Is that even possible. Any thoughts or suggestions plz:)

 

Also, on a 10 gallon, is it better to lean towards more live rock or live sand? I was thinking of getting about 20lbs of live sand, but only 10lbs of live rock. Should I have 20lbs of LR and 10lbs of LS? Would it even make a difference?

 

I live in the Seattle area so if anyone can suggest a descent place to buy live rock, it would be much appreciated:). Well, thanks for any help!

 

Sidel

[Aiptasia]

Originally posted by sidel

[bI guess I'm just looking for a self-sustaining tank that only requires little maintenance (little to no water change) as soon as it's established.  I'm planning on a 10 gallon nano.  Is that even possible.  Any thoughts or suggestions plz:)

 

Also, on a 10 gallon, is it better to lean towards more live rock or live sand?  I was thinking of getting about 20lbs of live sand, but only 10lbs of live rock.  Should I have 20lbs of LR and 10lbs of LS?  Would it even make a difference?

 

I live in the Seattle area so if anyone can suggest a descent place to buy live rock, it would be much appreciated:).  Well, thanks for any help!

[/b]

 

Water changes are a fact of life for every type of indoor aquara. Anyone who tells you anything different is feeding you a load of bullcrap. You should get in the habit of doing weekly water changes, especially with little nano-reefs. With bigger tanks, water changes can be extended because there's more water to play with.

 

Your fish/inverts/LR/LS are full of life, and are not only going to create nitrogenous wastes, but are going to depelete the sea water of vital nutrients and minerals as they live in your little glass box. Now, you can invest in denitrification equipment, spend tons of money on reagents, suppliments and chemical filters to help you extend the periods between water changes, but why go through the expense? It can make you crazy. I have so many test kits you'd think I was a water chemist (which, as a reef keeper, you become).

 

The best suggestion I can give anyone with a fish tank (fresh, salt or reef) is to do regular water changes each week at 10-15% of the tanks volume. We're talking about 15 minutes of work to do that every week to have a little slice of a reef grace your home, and believe me, sea salts are cheaper that a denitrator (or the task of having to break it in and feed it).

 

The main problem is people want instant answers, and that's why reefkeeping is as much an art as it is a science. I wouldn't recommend anyone try reefkeeping unless they've had experience mastering a good planted freshwater tank, or at least a Fish Only/LR tank first. Go slow, read all of the FAQ's in the nano-reef FAQ section and go slow. Nano-reefs, because they are much smaller in size, need very careful dedication and attention. Believe it or not, big 300 gallon reefs are much easier to manage (water chemistry) than little tanks.

 

First, you need to think about equipment for your little tank. I'm assuming you'll be using an acrylic cube type tank or a standard all glass 10 gallon. Next, we need to think about the animals we want to keep. If you want a tank with mushrooms, small polyps, zoanthis and some hardy soft corals, such as leathers, then you will need about 40-60 watts of mixed daylight/actinic 03 lighting over the top of the tank itself. One little incasdescent strip light isn't going to cut it. If you want to keep light hungry corals, such as most LPS and SPS corals with brighter colors, you're going to need to up the lighting to the 100-175 watt range. There are manufacturers that carry compact flourescent hoods and small wattage metal halide hoods for tanks this size. Since your tank isn't going to be very deep, i'd go with compact flourescents, 50% daylight and 50% actinic 03.

 

A tank full of live rock and live sand will pretty much do all of the filtering for the tank, provided you go slowly and let the tank balance itself out. I would suggest going with a plenum setup or a 3-4" layer of live sand (check the FAQ's or search around on plenums). By having a deep sand bed, the tank will encourage the growth of bacteria that eat nitrate, the final by-product of the nitrogen cycle (see FAQ). Water changes are probably going to be the primary way that you rid the tank of nitrate, but with the plenum or a sandbed that uses nitrate, you can reduce the frequency of water changes (once a week instead of every other day).

 

Natural reefs (out in the wild) have been tested and they have virtually no nitrates (ammonia, nitrite or nitrate), which means they live in a very nutrient poor environment. I'm sure you've heard by now of the runaway algae problems along the southern coast of the USA and most especially in Florida and the carribean, where algae is choking the coral reefs to death. It's because of nitrates from farm fertilizer runoff and untreated sewage runoff. Since the nitrates have no where to go in your own little glass box, you need to remove them with water changes.

 

You'll probably need about 25 lbs. of wet live sand for a 3-4" layer in the tank. The density (and therefore weight) of live rock can vary from rock to rock. Pacific LR is usually a little more dense that carribean LR, so it really depends. You're probably going to end up with 15-25 lbs. of LR for the tank.

 

You're also going to need two small powerheads to move the water around and prevent dead spots. Corals love moving water, and i'd suggest about 10 tank volumes per hour (100 gph rating) for your powerheads. A couple of aquaclear mini-jets or small hagen powerheads will do fine. If you can swing it, see about picking up either a wave timer (so that the water can wash from one jet to another at about a 30 second interval) or an osci-wave, which will actually turn the powerheads at 90 degree angles, creating a more "tide like" environment for the tank. There's even a wavemaker that comes as a powerstrip.

 

Next, a 100 watt submersable heater like a visi therm. Set the tank temperature to 76-80 degrees with the lights on and running.

 

Next, go ahead and buy some test kits. You'll need: Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, pH, and Carbonate Hardness. The ammonia/nitrite/nitrate kits are for checking your bacteria populations in the tank (tells you when it's safe to add corals and other inverts). The pH and carbonate hardness will tell you how alkaline and stable the water is. If you do your regular partial water changes, you won't need to worry so much about calcium and mineral replacement, as your sea salt mixes will restore them in their proper proportions.

 

You probably won't need a skimmer. You should also use purified water (not tap) for making your seawater, so you'll need to buy distilled or Reverse Osmosis water to do so (not just "Spring" water). You can get it off the shelf in any supermarket. You'll also need a good hydrometer to mix up your sea salt, the floating glass ones are more accurate than the plastic box ones.

 

Set up the tank with the plenum or 3-4" sandbed, arrange your live rock how you want it and secure it in place with reef safe epoxy putty or reef safe glue, install the heaters and hook up the powerheads to your wavemaker. Then, fill the tank with synthetic sea water, wait 15 minutes, and plug everything in.

 

The reef is now going to cycle, while the live rock cures. All live rock will cure, no matter if it's been pre-cured or not. It's a fact that when LR is exposed to air, some of the creatures in it will die off. This is to be expected, even if it's just driving from your LFS to your house. If your LR is shipped in (ordered off the net), it's going to be sent dry wrapped in wet newspaper. Rinse it off with fresh seawater to get the bits and pieces of newspaper off of it.

 

It's probably a good idea to add your janitor crew at this point. Use 2 snails and one mexican red legged hermit (the really little ones) per gallon. You can use Astrea tectum, ceriths, nerites or turbo snails. They will help you keep algae explosions commonly associated with cycling in check and keep your tank glass clean.

 

It's going to take from four to six weeks (sometimes eight) for the rock to cure and the tank to cycle. The tank will have completely cycled when you show zero ammonia, zero nitrite and 10 ppm or less nitrate. During the cycling time, do not perform water changes, as this can potentially "stall" the cycling by denying your beneficial bacteria a food source.

 

Once all you see is nitrate on your test kit, it's time to start your weekly 10-15% water changes. Gradually, as the plenum/deep sand layer matures (and with regular partial water changes) you will be able to reduce the nitrates at or below 10 ppm (ideally, less than 2 ppm). Then and only then, you can start adding some hardy corals to the tank. Add them two at a time and allow them a couple of weeks to acclimate. Watch the nitrate, and if it stays low, you can add a few more. Slow, slow slow.. Gradual is key.

[Chronicles]

wow that's a long ass post...someone likes to type My answer = skimmer. :

[Aiptasia]

Yeah, I love typing

 

Skimmers are o.k., they remove organics before they have a chance to break down in the tank. Skimmers, however, are often difficult to set up and maintain. They clog, they need to be cleaned, trimming them out right is difficult, if they produce too much wet foam you can have an overflowing mess on your hands, etc.

 

Skimmers also skim out necessary trace elements, such as iodide, so you have to begin supplimenting the tank or changing water that much more often.

 

Frankly, i'd rather see him go with a small refugium, such as the ones made by the CPR bak-pak people, so that he can add Dissolved Organic Compound loving algae, a mangrove pod or a mud filter to the tank.

 

It's funny, i've got two 20g. tall reef tanks that are set up slightly differently. One has the refugium with DOC algaes, the other a prizm skimmer. Both tanks have a deep sand bed with a plenum. I want to see which system handles nitrates better in the long run. I'll let you know the results as I go along.

[huari]

Aiptasia, that was a wonderful educational concise post. I wish I had that summary when starting out, but had to get the information in bits and pieces or buying Tullock's NRA. Thanks for typing.

 

Sidel, as to the question of alternatives of WC, there really are none though I was steered into skimming with an AquaC Remora from reading WetWebMedia and this article on water changes: http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_bri...ghtbill_wc.html

I think anything that helps water quality helps sustain the reef in the long run. Water changes and skimming are just more insurance particularly in a nano. BTW A lot of reefers with gorgeous tanks don't skim. If you're going economy which seems like an oxymoron (economic reefing) you can get a small air pump powered countercurrent skimmer like the corallife super skimmer I or a Lee's, some of them run on a powerfilter like an Aquaclear 300 that can be used for heater placement and carbon.

[sidel]

Thanks for the suggestion!

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not rushing into this hobby and trying to be lazy by not wanting to change the water:). I think I've done a heck of a whole lot of reading and researching, but somehow the idea of creating a self-sustaining nano reef (requiring little to no waterchange) stuck to my head. Plus, I've read bits and pieces of peoples posts that had mentioned something on it and I was hoping there was some new "method" that I've missed reading. I guess not.

 

Thank you though for the quick summary.

[KrackerG]

a sump helps some in the diluting wastes....

 

"the solution is dilution"

[MGXsport]

Very nice post Aiptasia I saved that to notepad so I have something to reference.

[sidel]

Sorry, just another quick question. Can the live sand sold at Petco in 10 and 20lb bags (I think they're labeled "something aragonite") be used for the 3 or 4 inch thick sand beds you refer to? TY

[Fire Marshall Dave]

I think the live sand in a bag is called "Aragalive". You can use that but I don't think it would be worth the extra money. The standard dry aragonite sand will become "live sand" in your tank if you just give it time. Even better is to seed it with a cup of live sand from an established tank.

[MGXsport]

sidel,

 

I see you are in the Seattle area. Good LFS are around the area.

 

Salt Water City in Bellevue

The Fish Store in North Seattle

Blue Sierra in Issaquah all have a good selection of LR and LS to choose from.

 

Chris

[sidel]

Thanks for the help all!

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...2&highlight=DSB

 

I found this post to be helpful too! It was the idea I was looking for. It would be ideal, but not realistic for something as small as a nano (or larger even).

[Aiptasia]

You can use aragonite sand, just don't get the sugar fine sand because the substrate can become compacted. Carib-sea makes a great product called araga-max, which is their dry "special grade seafloor" infused with nitrosomonas and nitrobactir bacteria. Using that will help speed up new tank syndrome.

 

Huari is right, in that some people don't even skim at all. That's the approach im taking with one of my 20g reefs, with just the live rock/plenum and macro-algae doing the work (and, of course, water changes).

 

Fire marshall dave is also right, you don't need to use live sand, you can use dry sand and let the liverock populate the sand. Some of the life in the LR (worms, copepods, etc.) will spread out into the sand, and eventually make the sand "live."

 

And thanks for all the positive notes guys

[tinyreef]

Originally posted by sidel

...the idea of creating a self-sustaining nano reef (requiring little to no waterchange) stuck to my head.   Plus, I've read bits and pieces of peoples posts that had mentioned something on it and I was hoping there was some new "method" that I've missed reading.

wellll, i like to call it the shaolin-method. it is a different method of reefing, closed systems (i.e. no water changes). i'm not feeding you bullcrap, in fact i don't recommend the style to anyone, including very experienced reefers but it is a valid method imho.

 

i don't normally like to discuss this type of setup because it's a controversial subject and newbies may think they can go and try it off the cuff. don't. imo it's kinda like when nano-reefing first started. you kept your mouth shut when discussions came up on the specifics of your setup for fear of backlash.

 

i'm still passively toying with it and haven't concretely determined a method of setup for the expressed purpose of a closed system. it kinda just evolves thru trial and error. to date, the only thing that's common in such setups (for me), is the time before going closed, about a year. it's worked so far for two successive nanos and my display tank but the conditions and setups for each were different and varied.

 

they are some people trying to go without water changes for extended periods of time. (i think the current record is 7~8 yrs?) but can they do so indefinitely? i don't think they can, not sure obviously. even some older tanks experience crashes with water changes, so going without doesn't logically improve their chances.

 

however, nilsen and fossa also discuss natural semi-closed systems where the bioptope/reef is basically cut off from the ocean and still functional. thriving may be a stretch, as the typical bio-diverse systems die-off to specialized organisms.

 

skimmers and wc's are the mainstays of the hobby imo. shaolin-style is still just a couple of crazies experimenting with their reef-money. no need for everyone to flush it down. X)

[Aiptasia]

TinyReef is attempting an Eng-style tank, famous for one of the very first reefkeepers. Mr. Eng lived in Hawaii, and used live sand, reef rock, natural sunlight and a simple air diffuser to create his reef systems.

 

Coping with evaporation water loss, salinity levels, trace mineral replacement and nutrient export is hard enough in systems where you do change the water. It might be easier to experiment with not changing the water in a larger tank than a nano-reef, because there's more water to play with.

 

Unless you're a water chemist or oceanographic researcher, I would never recommend subjecting delicate coral animals to this kind of experimentation if not necessary.

[tinyreef]

i do advocate skimming tho, no matter the situation. i believe jaubert is currently the foremost leader on closed systems. i believe it's one of his systems that's running for the past 7 years without input. i don't know the details on it tho.

 

i also advocate dosing. i used to dose like an addict but i've recently backed off of such a pharmacological approach. i've been selectively 'starving' the system and look for reactions and then how to counter-effect them.

 

i also believe in chemical filtration, especially since i run predominantly softie coral tanks, such as carbon or poly-filters.

 

so i don't think i'm trying to emulate the 'natural-method', which i believe still needs nsw or wc's. but i think there's also a way around the chemical filtration too. tyree's cryptic filters/refugiums are what i've been testing out for that aspect.

 

again, all these various methods are just options. i don't recommend them as they're not fully tested imho. nano-reefing is still very new itself. for instance, this time last year i don't believe there were even nano sub-forums in some of the other major reef forums.

[DHodges34]

tagging along

[Chronicles]

Do I use a skimmer? yes

Do I think every time "holy %#@* that @$*% was in my water? yes

Do skimmers instantly pull out all the good stuff? no

Do I still change water? yes

Do I change water 20% ever week? no

Does my tank look better then ever? yes

Has my skimmer killed of vast roaming plains of hair algae? yes

 

Just because it pulls out "some" good stuff that doesn't stop people from using carbon either. Skimmer > carbon anyday, but carbon does have it's place also.

 

So in answer to his actual question a skimmer will allow you to not have to change 20% of your water a week, and yes your tank will benifit from it. I have 0 nitrates and I love it.

 

I do put in SeaChem Reef Plus. I mix it with my BTAs food and then dump the tank water/RP mix into the tank.

http://www.seachem.com/en_products/product..._reef_plus.html

[Aiptasia]

I don't doubt it chronicles. I'm just trying to point out there's more than one way to skin an onion. One of my 20g. reefs has a prizm skimmer with a plenum. And yes, they are very beneficial for removing organics before they reach the nitrogen cycle.

 

If you're doing proper water changes of 10-15% weekly, you might not need to dose iodide back into the water, but I use a little coral vital 2x wk. and it has things perky.

 

In that same tank, i'm also employing a single red mangrove plant (growing up out the back) and DOC loving macro-algae (sea lettuce, paintbrush plant, Caulerpa prolifera). Mangroves don't pull out a great deal of DOC because of their slower growth, but it's an attractive plant and does more good than harm. The sea lettuce (Ulva undulatum) and the Caulerpa I pinch back each week, they grow very quickly. The paintbrush plant is a recent addition and grows more slowly. I have a pair of child's plastic scissors and i'll give it a haircut when it starts resembling Don King a little too much.

 

I use a combination of GAC and purigen in the media basket of the prizm in small mesh bags. I toss the GAC after about a month and re-charge the purigen as needed.

 

On my second 20g. reef, i'm using a plenum sandbed and no skimming. There's a CPR refugium (19"x4"x20") hanging on the back that's completely transparent. Ambient light from the hood, and two azoo 6500k compact flourescent palm lights are lighting it from above (20 watts +/-). The refugium is on a wave timer set to a 30 second interval, during which time it fills with new tank water and overflows refugium water. It causes the refugium to rise and fall like the tide, increasing contact time with the water, which I really like. Inside is a 3" layer of sand and the following plants: A red mangrove, two 12" strings of Caulerpa prolifera, a clump of Ulva undulatum on a baseball size piece of LR, two small golfball sized clumps of red gracilaria algae. The outflow portion of the refugium has a small bag of GAC in it, and that's it for filtration besides the plenum and LR in the main tank.

 

Both of these tanks are very new, but each seems to be coming along. I have minor fluxuations in pH (time of day usually) and calcium level. Alkalinity is stable, zero ammonia, zero nitrite and nitrates < 10 ppm and falling. Calcarious algaes are on the grow on both LR and on the tank glass. No diatoms that I can see. Red tuft algae on some of the LR is constantly grazed by my hermits and green micro-algae is almost non-existant (little patch or two).

 

When these tanks are stable, i'll begin adding inverts, but for now i'm content to watch the LR. I'm more and more convinced that it's all about going slow, using good methods and seeing what works well in your own situation.

[movingshadow]

as far as "no-input" systems go, fossa and nilsen actually had (or still have, I'm not sure) several experimatal tanks which ran for years with no work performed whatsoever. though we have to keep in mind that these are seasoned marine scientists with years of knowledge and research and the finest equipment available...

 

tiny: would love to hear more about your experiments!!

[NanoAmyDee]

As for the LFS in Seattle here are my 2 cents...

 

Saltwater City = $$$ and bad LR. They also don't believe in Nano-Reefing and think we are all disasters waiting to happen. I have also never gotten anything from there that has lived for more than a month.

 

Blue Sierra is where I go. They have a great 12g nano and are very very active in nano-reefing. They are in Issaquah and their phone number is 425-392-5360.

 

Their LR is ok, they have an awesome tank selection from 1g to 500g, and their prices are amazing! They also have great lighting systems and will help you with retrofits. They have "Real Live Sand" you can buy from their tanks. That can be used to seed dead sand. If you want good rock you need to know when their shipment comes in because we all show up to scavenge for the best bits when it comes in.

 

Their corals and fish are amazing too! They also sell water, and RO/DI units cheap!

 

Don't know of the place in North Seattle. So I have no opinons on those guys.

 

Email me if you want more info on the local scene.

[tinyreef]

Originally posted by movingshadow

tiny: would love to hear more about your experiments!!

hmm, i think some of them would get my ass severely barbequed. my way of reefing isn't exactly widely accepted. it's hard to justify when it's still mainly touch and feel (for me) versus a set pattern of steps.

[nanocat]

Tiny, you don't really have much choice not to dose do you? If you don't do frequent water changes, your corals will pull most of the calc and trace minerals out of the water, right?

 

I'm in the weekly large water change camp, but my tanks are all less than 3 months old. I have a buttload of LPS in one nanocube and I depend on the water change with NSW to recharge the calc, iodine, etc.

 

In a 10g. I have 2 clams, some halimeda and a few SPS. Here again, all calc hogs.

 

It only takes me 20 minutes to change 2g. in all 3 tanks (not counting the time for the NSW to warm up) so I can't complain and it's easier for me than to dose and worry about adding one thing, and affecting another.

[Chronicles]

yay for seachem purigen and phosgaurd

[tinyreef]

Originally posted by nanocat

Tiny, you don't really have much choice not to dose do you? If you don't do frequent water changes, your corals will pull most of the calc and trace minerals out of the water, right?

i'd tend to agree with you but jaubert and nilsen/fossa seem to be sustaining systems without such inputs. ??? i'm surprised at their success with such a minimalist method but i'd also like to know what kind of top-off water they use. (btw i use distilled)

 

i used to dose quite extensively in everything but in recent months i've backed off and skipped (sometime on purpose, sometimes not) dosages. i've seen even better response, growth rates and reproduction so i may continue the trend.

 

i'm not sure of the results because i had also completed some recent changes as well (complete systems overhaul about 6 mos. ago). so i still don't know where one benefit ends and the other begins. hmmm, as always time will tell.