Undetectable toxin?

[thefishingone]

Hi,

 

I decided to get my saltwater tank hobby going again after a 5-year hiatus.... I purchased a bio cube 8 and have 8 lbs of live rock and about 10 lbs of live sand. It's been running for a month now. I am at a loss!!!!! I don't know what to do. I tried to cycle the tank without any fish, figuring the live rock and live sand would cycle it. About 2.5 weeks after getting the tank started, and after observing a cycle, or what I thought was a cycle, I purchased a damsel. He died the next day. So I waited a few days, and tested the water. Everything was at 0. So I purchased another damsel. He died the next day also. So I decided to wait another week. Yesterday, which is my tanks 1 month anniversary, I tested the water and everything was again at 0. I bough another small damsel, and he died the same day!! I don't know what the heck is going on!! On week 2, when I observed the cycle, ammonia went up then down to 0, then nitrite went up then down to 0. Ever since that cycle, the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have been at 0. So I don't know what's killing the fish!! What could kill the fish within 24-hours? They were bought at different fish stores. My salinity is 22, everything that I can check is fine. What should I do? I'm thinking of just shutting it down and starting over, I'm that desperate. My only conclusion is that there is a foreign toxin or something toxic that's killing the fish. But how can I find what it is? Any thoughts/feedback/suggestions?

[cheryl jordan]

How are you acclimating the fish?

 

What is your ph and water source ?

 

Are they dying at particular time, ie at night?

 

Is it possible you have a preditor like a mantis or a crab ?

[thefishingone]

How are you acclimating the fish?

 

What is your ph and water source ?

 

Are they dying at particular time, ie at night?

 

Is it possible you have a preditor like a mantis or a crab ?

 

Hi, thanks for your response. I acclimate my fish using the drip method, takes about 45 minutes. My first two, I put in during the day, and they died the next afternoon. My last one died within 5 hours of being introduced. I'm pretty sure there are no predators in there, I haven't noticed any scars or attack marks on the dead fish.

 

My Ph is 8.2.... and I use regular tap water for my water source. After I dechlorinate it of course.

[cheryl jordan]

Ok no preditor then

 

And I doubt the SG is it but I would raise it to 1.025, double check the test kit against someone elses.

 

Where did the LR come from?

 

I would try a large water change and use RO/DI only, you can get it everywhere now, and run some carbon.

[Dani3d]

Putting a lot of carbon in a canister filter would help to remove any toxin that would be present. Could there be electricity leaching from a heater or another equipement?

 

If you use tap water, there could be copper in it or other heavy metal harmfull to the fish. I would use RO water because it seem there is something wrong with your water.

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

I decided to get my saltwater tank hobby going again after a 5-year hiatus.... I purchased a bio cube 8 and have 8 lbs of live rock and about 10 lbs of live sand. It's been running for a month now. I am at a loss!!!!! I don't know what to do. I tried to cycle the tank without any fish, figuring the live rock and live sand would cycle it. About 2.5 weeks after getting the tank started, and after observing a cycle, or what I thought was a cycle, I purchased a damsel. He died the next day. So I waited a few days, and tested the water. Everything was at 0. So I purchased another damsel. He died the next day also. So I decided to wait another week. Yesterday, which is my tanks 1 month anniversary, I tested the water and everything was again at 0. I bough another small damsel, and he died the same day!! I don't know what the heck is going on!! On week 2, when I observed the cycle, ammonia went up then down to 0, then nitrite went up then down to 0. Ever since that cycle, the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have been at 0. So I don't know what's killing the fish!! What could kill the fish within 24-hours? They were bought at different fish stores. My salinity is 22, everything that I can check is fine. What should I do? I'm thinking of just shutting it down and starting over, I'm that desperate. My only conclusion is that there is a foreign toxin or something toxic that's killing the fish. But how can I find what it is? Any thoughts/feedback/suggestions?

[thefishingone]

Ok no preditor the

 

And I doubt the SG is it but I would raise it to 1.025, double check the test kit against someone elses.

 

Where did the LR come from?

 

I would try a large water change and use RO/DI only, you can get it everywhere now, and run some carbon.

 

The live rock came from a reputable LFS. I believe it's Bali rock. I'll take in some of my water to my LFS and see what they get on their tests.

[MikeTR]

I acclimate my fish using the drip method, takes about 45 minutes.

Just temp acclimate for 30 mins and let him go... nows a good chance to rethink your choice of fish...i don't think anyone likes damsels .

 

and I use regular tap water for my water source. After I dechlorinate it of course.

This is most likely your problem.

 

RO/DI.. period...or distilled.

[thefishingone]

Putting a lot of carbon in a canister filter would help to remove any toxin that would be present. Could there be electricity leaching from a heater or another equipement?

 

If you use tap water, there could be copper in it or other heavy metal harmfull to the fish. I would use RO water because it seem there is something wrong with your water.

 

Thanks for your response. No, there shouldn't be an electric leak. My tank has the stock equipment and doesn't have a heater yet. The temp is about 80. I won't need a heater until the winter.

 

Interesting theory on copper or other heavy metal. Would that same heavy metal culprit affect freshwater fish? I've had a FW aquarium for about a year now.

 

Thanks for your response. No, there shouldn't be an electric leak. My tank has the stock equipment and doesn't have a heater yet. The temp is about 80. I won't need a heater until the winter.

 

Interesting theory on copper or other heavy metal. Would that same heavy metal culprit affect freshwater fish? I've had a FW aquarium for about a year now.

 

Are there any tests that would identify a high copper and/or heavy metal toxins?

[thefishingone]

My aquarium is still going but without any fish. Everything is still reading at 0. My question is, do you think these could be the problems. I bought the following to put in my tank until I could add real corals after the tank cycled. Does anyone have any experience and/or do you think these could be releasing any toxins into my tank? I cut a few in half or in pieces so they can fit nicely into my tank. Do you think that there could be any toxins that could have been released by exposing the inside of the pieces?

 

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/prod...mp;pcatid=14944

 

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/prod...12582&rel=1

[nole1968]

+1 to de-chlorinated tap. I believe that may be the issue. Do a large water change with ro/di or distilled water. water a day or so, then do another.

[MikeTR]

if there is anything toxic to fish in your tank, it would have come from your tap water.. there should be no reason a damsel would die the same day with your given parameters. Do you know what's in your tap water or what the TDS is? My tap water measures 300 TDS.. so that's 300 ppm of crap that I have no idea what it is..I'm sure something in there's not good for the tank. The water you are supposed to use should have 0 TDS.. since you aren't very far along.. start over.. new sand.. rock can stay. 10lbs of live sand is what 10$..? Use RO/DI or distilled water... there's a reason we advise you to do this..

[cheryl jordan]

if there is anything toxic to fish in your tank, it would have come from your tap water.. there should be no reason a damsel would die the same day with your given parameters. Do you know what's in your tap water or what the TDS is? My tap water measures 300 TDS.. so that's 300 ppm of crap that I have no idea what it is..I'm sure something in there's not good for the tank. The water you are supposed to use should have 0 TDS.. since you aren't very far along.. start over.. new sand.. rock can stay. 10lbs of live sand is what 10$..? Use RO/DI or distilled water... there's a reason we advise you to do this..

 

If you really want the problem solved ^^ is key.

[brandon429]

the reason I haven't chimed in is because its mind boggling, I have friends that use high TDS tap water for their algae farm reefs but the fishes still swim, you can also get a chemists report from your water district simply by calling them and requesting it to show what's in there, to be specific and not guessing blindly...

 

I am amazed that tap water is toxic to fish in that repeatable time span seeing the many FO and coral reef tanks in my town using only dechlorinated tap water, the tap pH is 7.8 with crusty, and I mean crusty, ca and mg levels...? tap water causes algae outbreaks but not death imo, if it is the tap you guys are getting pumped with some wierd stuff I shouldn't knock our water so bad...if I linked you to a few reefs here and on other sites using only tap water, with living fish, would that matter or would tap water still be the for-sure culprit without seeing any lab tests>?

[jeremai]

I agree. If there was a substance in the tap water at a high enough concentration to be immediately toxic to fish, then chances are that same substance would be toxic to humans. If the tap water is dechlorinated, then I think it can be ruled out.

 

The OP got his first fish after 2.5 weeks. Depending on how fresh the live rock was, the first fish probably died due to the ammonia levels in the tank. As for the other two fish, hard to say, but even at one month the tank could still be cycling.

 

Perhaps try new test kits, or take a water sample to your LFS. Or wait another month and try again. No sense completely starting over though, at least not before you find the problem.

[brandon429]

extending the ammonia idea a little further would the fish just be belly up in the morning, or did he hover at the surface with advanced gill/opercular motion like he was starving for air? what about darting or rubbing about, was there any notable behavioral tweaks? Honestly I won't forward a guess as this is just so far out of line with the norm but nonetheless very very interesting. id put in a bulletproof coral like a blue mushroom or a candy cane just to tell.

 

what about tiny pods or crustaceans, any of them running around? can you see any kind of motile life in the tank outside of the fish? no nano should be that sterile after this long, if you put a few pellets of food around the base of the live rock that should bring out the pods if not the mystery deepens

 

jeremai, your avatar is cool and sad at the same time to me. its proof that we have all bought into mass production and consumption of heroin by the drug companies as long as the little tabs end in something like 'codone...its amazing to me that my grandmother, who so ardently hates pot, takes heroin purified now for back pain and all my friends take it for fun and are addicted to it, no one takes pills and doesn't get hooked. The hypocrisy and non understanding of the nature of drug use is amazing to me and quite entertaining to hear other's perspectives.

[farkwar]

My aquarium is still going but without any fish. Everything is still reading at 0. My question is, do you think these could be the problems. I bought the following to put in my tank until I could add real corals after the tank cycled. Does anyone have any experience and/or do you think these could be releasing any toxins into my tank? I cut a few in half or in pieces so they can fit nicely into my tank. Do you think that there could be any toxins that could have been released by exposing the inside of the pieces?

 

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/prod...mp;pcatid=14944

 

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/prod...12582&rel=1

Hydrogen sulfide perhaps.

That would kill damsels.

[brandon429]

can't be those, they are tested and intended to be used in fish only setups...

 

 

H2SO4 arises from pockets of detritus or organics in the absence of O2, surpised he built up these stores without fish! are there black pockets in your sandbed? hellofa idea though that's curious to know. how much feed have you been adding to this tank>

[jeremai]

jeremai, your avatar is cool and sad at the same time to me. its proof that we have all bought into mass production and consumption of heroin by the drug companies as long as the little tabs end in something like 'codone...its amazing to me that my grandmother, who so ardently hates pot, takes heroin purified now for back pain and all my friends take it for fun and are addicted to it, no one takes pills and doesn't get hooked. The hypocrisy and non understanding of the nature of drug use is amazing to me and quite entertaining to hear other's perspectives.

interesting perspective. I'm just a big corey haim fan.

[cheryl jordan]

I agree the water source may just be a red herring, but it sure is some where to start.

 

Your fish may all have died for different reasons, but to start over seems alittle severe.

[farkwar]

can't be those, they are tested and intended to be used in fish only setups...

 

 

H2SO4 arises from pockets of detritus or organics in the absence of O2, surpised he built up these stores without fish! are there black pockets in your sandbed? hellofa idea though that's curious to know. how much feed have you been adding to this tank>

Rookie move on my part.

Didn't follow the links and assumed it was live rock.

When I broke up my live rock it had black sludge in pockets.

Definite anoxic zone bacteria.

I didn't think that people still use coral decorations here.

My bad.

[thefishingone]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. Its comforting to know that we are all baffled by this mystery together!!

To answer some of the previous questions, the damsels would get acclimated then released, then go hide in the live rock as expected with an occasional sighting, then the next day (morning) or afternoon they would just show up dead behind the live rock, there was no breathing problems that I noticed when I would see them for brief periods. As soon as I put the wrasse in (my 3rd fish attempt) he found a hiding spot, stayed there overnight and died there. This is really freaky!!! I've never experienced/heard/read about anything like this ever. Just for my knowledge, what would labored breathing represent?

 

What do you mean by how much feed do I put in? There are no fish so I'm not feeding anything? Is that what you meant?

 

About the second week of my tanks life the glass, sand and some of the live rock were covered with algae, then in the third week all the algae disappeared (for the most part) and it still accumulates on the glass.

 

Within the first two weeks of the aquarium getting set up, there were a few little critters,bristle worms I believe.

 

Here is a pic for what it's worth.

[cheryl jordan]

Where did you buy the decorations? I would remove them asap, change out all the water and run carbon.

[thefishingone]

To answer a few more questions...

 

Yes, I was using the coral decorations as a substitute for the real thing which I was going to put in once the tank was mature and stabilized. There's no reason we can't have a tank look nice while it matures, it's better than staring at live rock imo

 

I have a FW aquarium that is just fine with tap water. I don't know if the suspected toxin in my tap water would be stronger in SW than FW... Hmmm I have no idea.

 

I think I'm going to start with a 50% water change, with RO/DI water from LFS, and then do that again in a couple of days. Then wait a few more days, test the water and see what happens.... ::collective sigh::

 

Where did you buy the decorations? I would remove them asap, change out all the water and run carbon.

 

You think it's the decorations? The link to where I purchased them is on Page 1 of the thread if you want to see it.

[kory]

when u mix up your tap water do u generally use warm water? by turning on the hot water, which is only run in copper tubes, you are basically adding pure copper to your water.

[thefishingone]

Great question, yes, I only use the cold water pipes to get my aquarium water.