another nitrate thread!

[wowser]

Hi,

 

I'm still getting 15ppm Nitrates even with a brand new bag of Chempure Elite.

 

8 gal biocube; bought used 3 months ago.

 

livestock:

1 clown

1 firefish

1 turbo snail

4 hermit

1 narcissus snail (could be cause of problem; haven't seen the snail in a month, maybe he's dead under the sand bed?)

 

Filtration:

about 1.5" LS; lots of LR (don't know weight, sorry)

chempure elite

cheato with sub light in chamber 2 fuge

purigen

media basket

filter floss changed every three days

 

feed:

small chip of rinsed mysis shrimp every 2 days

few drops of microvert sometimes

 

stats:

Ph 7.8

temp 79

Nit 0

Am 0

Nat 15-20

Sal 1.025

 

Please help. Water is clear and tank is clean. Could the narcissus be dead under the sand bed? He used to come out at feeding but hasn't in a month. If so, what's the best way to get him out?

[Degener8]

Did you have another thread a while back .. nitrate was a problem in that thread to?

 

so this is not a new nitrate problem its been high all along. I can only think that there is something dieing off in the rock at this point. every other day feeding is fine but I would get a syringe and feed only what your fish will eat. Leave the CUC to clean the rocks.

 

by throwing food intot the tank it leaves it floating around and getting stuck in crevices etc. spot feed only for a while. Allow the excesses in the tank to cycle out.

 

Continue water changes (maybe even double them) bacteria is in the rock and substrate changing water has little significance on your bacterial population.

 

Doing these 2 things within 30 days should solve the problem unless your introducing nitrate as part of your water change? Have you tested water before putting it in the tank to make sure your not introducing the problem? Are you using RO water or Distilled?

 

it really sounds like your doing most everything right at this time. I hope these suggestions help.

 

Once you decide on an action make sure you stick with it long enough to see results if there are any to be had.

[wowser]

Yes, that was me. I thought I might get more suggestions in the water forum with just a question on N03.

 

I just dug through the sand to find that sand snail. The thought of that big snail rotting under the sand bugged me. I stirred up quite a storm but I found him; alive. So that's not it.

 

I feed very little. Like a small pinky nail chip of mysis, then rinse in a net, mix with tank water and baster to the corals and fish. Not much is left behind. Maybe 10%.

 

I was doing 1 gal 2x a week but decided to hold back, maybe do 1/2 gal a week. I would guess that 1 gallon is probably 25% of water volume in an 8 gal biocube, once you factor rock, corals, sand, etc. Maybe it was too much and stressed the corals?

 

Yes, tested the RODI water I use and it's 0 Nitrate.

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

Did you have another thread a while back .. nitrate was a problem in that thread to?

 

so this is not a new nitrate problem its been high all along. I can only think that there is something dieing off in the rock at this point. every other day feeding is fine but I would get a syringe and feed only what your fish will eat. Leave the CUC to clean the rocks.

 

by throwing food intot the tank it leaves it floating around and getting stuck in crevices etc. spot feed only for a while. Allow the excesses in the tank to cycle out.

 

Continue water changes (maybe even double them) bacteria is in the rock and substrate changing water has little significance on your bacterial population.

 

Doing these 2 things within 30 days should solve the problem unless your introducing nitrate as part of your water change? Have you tested water before putting it in the tank to make sure your not introducing the problem? Are you using RO water or Distilled?

 

it really sounds like your doing most everything right at this time. I hope these suggestions help.

 

Once you decide on an action make sure you stick with it long enough to see results if there are any to be had.

[lakshwadeep]

What is your freshwater source?

 

Having two fish could be a problem in an 8 gallon biocube (which in reality has a smaller volume in the display section).

[MikeTR]

You're gonna have to do a few 50% water changes in a row or you won't make a dent. Here's how it maths out. First we'll start with a 25% weekly exchange and a level of 20 for NO3.

 

Week 1 - 20

Week 2 - 15

Week 3 - 11.25

Week 4 - 8.44

Week 5 - 6.33

So you can see that it takes quite a while to reduce.. and this calculation assumes that no additional nutrients are being converted through the cycle (which is impossible). So you still may be at 8-10 after week 4.

 

Now here's the math for 50% weekly exchanges.

Week 1 - 20

Week 2 - 10

Week 3 - 5

Week 4 - 2.5

Week 5 - 1.75

 

I change 3 gallons/week in my BC14. Don't be afraid to change 2 gallons at a time in yours.

[Marine Man Tom]

its not a massive issue to have nitrates at 15ppm i had mine that high for about 1 month and nothing happens, it doesnt harm fish at all and the only things it really harms are corals and sometimes inverts, tbh u can get it down if u like or you can let nature take its course and what type of clown is it?

and isnt a firefish a bit too large for a small 8 gal? i mean i have a 32 gal and im at my stocking limit with 2 clowns 1 chromis and a coral beauty thats about 3 inches...

[Captain Billy]

My bet is that the media basket is trapping waste and that you are also lacking on flow.

[wowser]

water comes from our drinking water osmosis. It's a 4 stage and tests 0 nitrates

 

I got these fish because I saw a bc8 on youtube that was beautiful with the same clown I have (sorry, don't know the name but looks just like Nemo) and a firefish, which is about 2". I just got him a few days ago and he hasn't come out of his "hidey-hole."

 

 

 

What is your freshwater source?

 

Having two fish could be a problem in an 8 gallon biocube (which in reality has a smaller volume in the display section).

 

 

I just got the basket a few days ago. It's pretty clean! Flow is maxed out. I upgrade to a MJ606 for the pump with korilla diverter and a korilla nano for circ. Plus cut the overflow divider.

 

My bet is that the media basket is trapping waste and that you are also lacking on flow.

 

 

I'd like my corals to thrive and not just "hang on." Looking for those perfect numbers!

 

its not a massive issue to have nitrates at 15ppm i had mine that high for about 1 month and nothing happens, it doesnt harm fish at all and the only things it really harms are corals and sometimes inverts, tbh u can get it down if u like or you can let nature take its course and what type of clown is it?

and isnt a firefish a bit too large for a small 8 gal? i mean i have a 32 gal and im at my stocking limit with 2 clowns 1 chromis and a coral beauty thats about 3 inches...

 

Hmm, very good point. I may try a 50% for 2 weeks and see what happens! Thanks! Is it possible to bring nitrates down without water changes? LIke using Chaeto, Chempure, etc?

 

You're gonna have to do a few 50% water changes in a row or you won't make a dent. Here's how it maths out. First we'll start with a 25% weekly exchange and a level of 20 for NO3.

 

Week 1 - 20

Week 2 - 15

Week 3 - 11.25

Week 4 - 8.44

Week 5 - 6.33

So you can see that it takes quite a while to reduce.. and this calculation assumes that no additional nutrients are being converted through the cycle (which is impossible). So you still may be at 8-10 after week 4.

 

Now here's the math for 50% weekly exchanges.

Week 1 - 20

Week 2 - 10

Week 3 - 5

Week 4 - 2.5

Week 5 - 1.75

 

I change 3 gallons/week in my BC14. Don't be afraid to change 2 gallons at a time in yours.

[Marine Man Tom]

lolz im experiencing my tank crash yet all my levels are at 0 sigh... your so lucky nitrate isnt an issue, corals can still thrive with some nitrate in the water good luck on getting it lower, jsut do more water changes maybe feed less and just in general dont over stock over feed or over anything really

 

again good luck on your tank

[doctaq]

was your sand old? did your rocks come from a fowlr originally?

[Captain Billy]

We all want those perfect numbers, but you definitely dont have to have a media basket to get them. Some times people over do their tanks with excessive filtration methods that just trap waste.

[wowser]

Full story: I bought a bc14 off craigslist that was neglected. Was dirty and had an algae bloom. Had 1 clown (which I still have) a few sad corals and a broken lighting system. Since the lights were trashed and the unit didn't fit under my counter, I decided to get a new BC8 and transfer everything over. I bought new LS and then seeded some of the old sand and used most of the old LR. It was a reef tank previously but I think once the actinic lamp/ballast blew, he took it out, had an algae bloom and dumped it on an unsuspecting sap (me) on craigslist.

 

 

was your sand old? did your rocks come from a fowlr originally?

 

 

What's the best form of filtration? Will good live rock take care of Nitrates and detritus?

 

We all want those perfect numbers, but you definitely dont have to have a media basket to get them. Some times people over do their tanks with excessive filtration methods that just trap waste.

[Nemo Niblets]

If there is a sponge anywhere, or bioballs, that will definitely cause your nitrates to rise if you don't clean them regularly.

 

If it's an inTank media basket, I doubt that's it. Especially since it's 3 days old, and you have a high flow return pump.

[wowser]

No sponge, no bioballs.

 

If there is a sponge anywhere, or bioballs, that will definitely cause your nitrates to rise if you don't clean them regularly.

 

If it's an inTank media basket, I doubt that's it. Especially since it's 3 days old, and you have a high flow return pump.

[nanoreef-R]

Solid Carbon Dosing.

 

 

Problem solved.

[wowser]

Can you explain please? Is that using activated carbon in a bag or something?

 

Solid Carbon Dosing.

 

 

Problem solved.

[nanoreef-R]

Solid Carbon dosing. is an amazing way to reduce nitrates and phosphates.

[Nano sapiens]

I had a similiar issue with nitrates hovering in the 18-25ppm zone for about a year in my 12g. I had no fish, just one Scarlet Shrimp and a small CUC. Feeding amounted to a few mini-pellets every other day. The tank was originally set up with 10 yr. old LR and 30% old/70% new sand.

 

No amount of Chemi-pure or water changes helped over the long term.

 

So, I went on a detritus cleaning frenzy and after 2 months of weekly sand vacuuming and fuge cleaning the nitrates went down to 5ppm.

 

BTW - Even 25ppm had no noticeable effect on my mixed reef corals, other than perhaps a bit more 'browning'. If I had had an Acro dominated tank then it could have been more of a problem.

[Nemo Niblets]

Have you cleaned out the bottom of the back chambers? If there is anything collecting there it can pose a problem.

[ReefEscape]

Patience is more important than any "witch doctor vodoo cure-all". You have a 3 month old tank with two fish a new sand bed and old rock. You didn't say anything about a cycle period where you let the tank mature at all before adding live stock. They only way you will ever get to the "perfect" numbers is either to invest hundreds of dollars on a sump with a skimmer and fuge with multiple filtration levels or to lie that you have zero across the board.

 

The only thing that will help to improve in your tank is to help eliminate algea (which you haven't said is a problem) and to improve the color and growth of acropora (which you don't have the proper lighting for if you have the stock hood). Most zoas, palys, mushrooms, rics, leathers, lps and some sps will grow better with some nitrates (5-20ppm). If you must obsess with getting your nitrates to zero then follow the nitrate reduction rules.

 

If you religiously do 20% water changes twice a week every week and have enough growth on your cheato to be able to trim it back regularly (trimming it removes the nutrients) and regularly replace your chemipure elite every two months and feed only what your fish will eat in three minutes and do not add any more inhabitants, you should see a reduction in nitrates to zero or near zero in 4 to 6 months. Make sure you are using a quality salt mix that doesn't include a high concentration of phosphate and nitrate.

 

Good luck

[wowser]

Yes, i've cleaned out the back chambers. There's a little sand/debris behind chamber 1 and a little escaped cheato behind 3, but that's it.

 

The tank isn't three month's old. The original tank was probably a year or more old based on the Coraline that was everywhere. I simply moved most everything to the smaller 8 gal tank. Isn't that the same as having a mature tank? I do have algae on ONE rock. I don't know why but the top surface is nearly covered and is about 4" x 3". My snails won't eat it either. Could that cause the problem. Otherwise it's a clean tank. When you say trim the cheato, what does that mean? It's a big clump and is all green and seems to be doing well. Do I cut off a hunk or trim it like a haircut every week? It nearly fills the media basket.

 

Four to six months is a long time but I'll give it a go. The reason I'd like the Nitrate at 0 is because my frogspawn isn't happy and I lost a torch and would like to replace but won't until I reduce Nitrates.

 

Here's the tank. The algae rock is under the shrimp.

 

 

Patience is more important than any "witch doctor vodoo cure-all". You have a 3 month old tank with two fish a new sand bed and old rock. You didn't say anything about a cycle period where you let the tank mature at all before adding live stock. They only way you will ever get to the "perfect" numbers is either to invest hundreds of dollars on a sump with a skimmer and fuge with multiple filtration levels or to lie that you have zero across the board.

 

The only thing that will help to improve in your tank is to help eliminate algea (which you haven't said is a problem) and to improve the color and growth of acropora (which you don't have the proper lighting for if you have the stock hood). Most zoas, palys, mushrooms, rics, leathers, lps and some sps will grow better with some nitrates (5-20ppm). If you must obsess with getting your nitrates to zero then follow the nitrate reduction rules.

 

If you religiously do 20% water changes twice a week every week and have enough growth on your cheato to be able to trim it back regularly (trimming it removes the nutrients) and regularly replace your chemipure elite every two months and feed only what your fish will eat in three minutes and do not add any more inhabitants, you should see a reduction in nitrates to zero or near zero in 4 to 6 months. Make sure you are using a quality salt mix that doesn't include a high concentration of phosphate and nitrate.

 

Good luck

[clownfish14]

yes when he says to trim the cheato he means cut off a clump every week. what you want to do is figure out how much it grows in a week then cut that off at the end of the week and continue. make sence?

[lakshwadeep]

Also note that the use of "solid carbon dosing" and/or "vodka dosing" is just another iteration of what used to be done in nitrate reactors, which was listed here back in 2003 (#6 under "lowering nitrate in reef aquaria"; ethanol is the alcohol found in alcoholic beverages like vodka):

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

 

Edit: amphiprion was right about the ethanol.

[wowser]

Thanks everyone. Per Degener8's recommendation, I did a 2 gallon water change today. I also boiled the one rock that had some algae on it. And instead of scooping the water out, I used a vacuum to pull up detritus in my live sand. I think that may have been a big source of the Nitrates. It pulled a LOT of murky water from the sand. Maybe my sand bed is too deep? It's about 1.5" -2".

 

My Nitrates went from a solid 20 (they're creeping up) to 15. I probably have been over feeding. I'm going to stop using microvert and only use the mysis every 4 days. Lesson learned: my corals were happier with good water instead of food. Even though I did 1 gal water changes every week, it couldn't keep up with the food.

 

I'll do the 2 gal water/vac changes every two or three days and see how my Nitrates drop. All I can say is THANKS A MILLION to everyone's help.

[wowser]

Okay, learned a few things. Always LEARNING, LEARNING! First, probably shouldn't have vacuumed the sand bed. Or at least only the top 1/4". At least that's the consensus on the web. I did a deep vac of the front half of the tank over two days and learned I probably took out a lot of good bacteria with all the muck. Hopefully there's still enough good stuff in the back and on the rocks. Nitrates are about 15 still.

 

Also learned, a dying coral is probably not a good idea to keep in the tank. I left both my torch and hammer corals in to almost the bitter end. I took out my hammer today and it smelled like rotting fish. I would guess that was a big factor to high nitrates. Probably what happened is my Torch was dying about 4 weeks ago and I left him in too long. That brought up the nitrates which took down the hammer too. I would guess this is when a quarantine tank is helpful?

 

I don't think I'm ready for LPSs at this point, so am going to get my nitrates down to 0 and wait six or so months before trying that again. Mushrooms, cloves, zoas, acan all seem to be doing well.

 

Also took out SteveT's media basket. I got better flow without it and just egg crate on top and bottom of ch2.

 

Thanks everyone!