Seachem Reef salt low in KH?

[youincolor]

I have used Seachem's Reef Salt for a long time now, I have probably used 4 5 gallon buckets of it over the last year or two. I have never had any issues with the salt mixing up to normal levels as far as I can tell, but then again I never have been in the habit of testing my mixed water before I do a water change.

 

Well recently I have been noticing that things are not looking as good as they normally do, some SPS is experiencing RTN at the base, new frags of SPS are losing color fast and not growing as well. But I have to admit, I'm pretty lazy about testing, I usually go by a visual inspection.

 

Anyway long story short my KH is testing at 5! And that's in the tank, I mixed up a new batch of water last night and that batch tested at 5 as well!

 

I have a 5 stage RO unit in my garage that I use for fresh water, and I mix my new water up and let it aerate for 24 hours before I use it. I don't understand why a new batch would test at dkh of 5. I tested my tap water and it tested at 7, pretty normal. I am going to buy a new test kit tomorrow because it's time anyway, mine is kind of old.

 

Any one else experiencing any problems with Seachem Reef Salt? I will post parameters, etc., below if necessary.

[youincolor]

This might be off topic, but seems relevant enough: I use bulkreefsupply's 2 part to keep my levels up, as well as Brightwell +2 kalk in my ATO. When I dose the alk in the morning (100ml) it clouds the water and looks like it forms globules and eventually gets blown around enough by the powerheads to seem like it has dissolved. Is this classic precipitation? Am I losing some of the buffering capacity when it does that, or is it just the ph of the water changing rapidly (I think I've heard that before). I haven't been able to afford any kind of a dosing pump to continuously dose small amounts of the alk solution at night like I would like to be able to, so I have to dump it in before work basically. Also I have 4 huge (4"+ average size) clams, will they suck up a lot of the alk during the day?

 

I feel kind of silly because I have been doing this for a long time and I have gotten lazy about water parameters. I have forgotten more stuff than I remember about water chemistry right now.

[youincolor]

No one huh.

[Rem]

Did you thoroughly mix your dry salt bucket? Its common that the heavier elements sink to the bottom of the bucket during transport. Seachem Reef salt should be around 9-10 dkh, so if your testing 5 from a fresh batch, you need to mix the dry salt better or measure your salt by weight. They sell cheap food scales at the dollar stores and thats how I mix my salt.

 

From the Seachem Reef salt website: To prepare small quantities, use 34 g of Reef Salt™ per each liter (1/2 cup per each US gallon) of water.

[youincolor]

I never thought to mix the dry salt. If I was not using enough of the salt I wouldn't end up with an SG of 1.024 though, which I am. I will mix up the salt though, thanks for the tip.

[crewchef]

Went through the same sort of thing and finally decided it wasn't the salt I was using but how I was mixing. First thing, mix up the dry salt in the bag/bucket. Next, mix well when adding to water. Here's what I do now based on recommendations I received when trying to figure this out.

 

Pour water into mixing container

 

Slowly (very) pour in salt while stirring mix rapidly. Some people are using a paddle like device in their drill. I'm just using using a stirring stick. Keep stirring, mix it up good. I do 3 gallons of water at a time and will mix it for 5+ minutes by hand.

 

Add the heater and power head. Point power head output up towards water surface like a fountain.

 

My mixed water, same salt went from 6dKH to 10dKH.

 

Hope that helps.

[timdanger]

i'm going to offer a different thought, in light of both your cloudy water and your use of the kalk AND the 2-part: you are (as you suspected) causing precipitation and depleting your magnesium, which will make your Ca/Alk levels unstable. Kalk is infamous for rapidly depleting Mg on its own. combined with the 2-part, which is only taking account of Mg depletion from the 2-part solution itself, i would be concerned.

 

1) what's your Mg testing at (and on what kit)?

2) are you dosing Mg part of the 2-part?

3) are you dosing Mg within a similar timeframe of dosing Alk?

[youincolor]

Went through the same sort of thing and finally decided it wasn't the salt I was using but how I was mixing. First thing, mix up the dry salt in the bag/bucket. Next, mix well when adding to water. Here's what I do now based on recommendations I received when trying to figure this out.

 

Pour water into mixing container

 

Slowly (very) pour in salt while stirring mix rapidly. Some people are using a paddle like device in their drill. I'm just using using a stirring stick. Keep stirring, mix it up good. I do 3 gallons of water at a time and will mix it for 5+ minutes by hand.

 

Add the heater and power head. Point power head output up towards water surface like a fountain.

 

My mixed water, same salt went from 6dKH to 10dKH.

 

Hope that helps.

Wow very helpful, thank you.

 

I usually fill my 15 gallon container with RO water, turn on the power heads, and pour the salt in kind of slowly from a measuring cup. But I will definitely try your idea soon and see what happens. Thanks a lot.

[youincolor]

i'm going to offer a different thought, in light of both your cloudy water and your use of the kalk AND the 2-part: you are (as you suspected) causing precipitation and depleting your magnesium, which will make your Ca/Alk levels unstable. Kalk is infamous for rapidly depleting Mg on its own. combined with the 2-part, which is only taking account of Mg depletion from the 2-part solution itself, i would be concerned.

 

1) what's your Mg testing at (and on what kit)?

2) are you dosing Mg part of the 2-part?

3) are you dosing Mg within a similar timeframe of dosing Alk?

I tested Mg last week with a Salifert kit and it was around 1480, that was part of the reason I was getting confused. I know Mg has to do with stabilizing my cal and alk levels, but 1480 seemed fine. I will test again right now and see where it is at. I'm wondering if the Mg in the Brightwell Mg might be throwing the test off, by showing a Mg level around 1500, but it might not be the right kind of Mg needed to stabilize my levels. That may sound weird, but I have heard that some chemicals used in Brightwell products are, say, Magnesium compounds, or Calcium compounds, but they might not be the types of compounds necessary for coral growth and development. That may be a tangent though.

 

I am not dosing the Mg part from BRS. I got sent one part to make the Mg solution, but I didn't know I needed another part to make it and I haven't ordered it yet because my Mg level was always testing at 1460-1500.

 

Basically I need to stabilize my levels somehow, that's the bottom line. Do you think I should discontinue using the Kalk in my top off water right now? It makes sense, especially since I added the fan back to the sump for the warm weather, I am evaporating more again.

 

Plan of action:

1. Remove kalk and just use RO water.

2. Mix up salt as suggested by previous poster above and see if I can get the kh higher.

 

Sound good?

[youincolor]

Well Mg is testing at 1110. I guess I could have answered my own question about that, but it still doesn't explain why my new saltwater is testing so low.

[youincolor]

Okay so I mixed the dry salt really really well, poured in 5 cups of salt into the 10 gallons of RO water, one cup at a time, slowly, while mixing with a spoon I lifted from the kitchen. Then I added a Mag 12 and a heater and covered the can (30 gallon BRUTE that I use, sterilized long before). We will see how it tests.

 

Oh and the water that I had made earlier tests Mg at about the same as my tank, 1260, which isn't much higher than the tank is running, after consumption. I think that this batch of salt is just totally wrong.

[youincolor]

New water:

 

dkh: 8-9, so it's a bit higher.

Mg: 1260, the same.

 

Findings: bad salt!

[drakkor]

New water:

 

dkh: 8-9, so it's a bit higher.

Mg: 1260, the same.

 

Findings: bad salt!

 

I'm using the same salt and my newly mixed water has mg at about 1500 so you may be right.

 

I too have found that my KH is low (7 in my tank, not sure about the new water). What's worse is that seachem reef salt has high levels of borate which mess with most KH test kits. I've read that with this salt you will need to compensate by aiming for a higher KH target (10 or 11). I haven't seen validation of this but here is the article (from a pretty well respected author).

http://web.archive.org/web/20021127040526/...ov2002/chem.htm

 

Hope that helps!

[youincolor]

I'm using the same salt and my newly mixed water has mg at about 1500 so you may be right.

 

I too have found that my KH is low (7 in my tank, not sure about the new water). What's worse is that seachem reef salt has high levels of borate which mess with most KH test kits. I've read that with this salt you will need to compensate by aiming for a higher KH target (10 or 11). I haven't seen validation of this but here is the article (from a pretty well respected author).

http://web.archive.org/web/20021127040526/...ov2002/chem.htm

 

Hope that helps!

What does Borate do to a KH test?

 

Thanks for the info, I'll have to read the rest after work. I always enjoy Randy's articles, it was an article I read of his that mentioned that some Brightwell products contain compounds that can not break down properly in saltwater to benefit corals, as I stated an a post above.

 

So yeah, I think the solution is pretty clear, buy a bucket of Red Sea Pro.

[timdanger]

What does Borate do to a KH test?

 

Thanks for the info, I'll have to read the rest after work. I always enjoy Randy's articles, it was an article I read of his that mentioned that some Brightwell products contain compounds that can not break down properly in saltwater to benefit corals, as I stated an a post above.

 

Per RHF, alkalinity is the "measure of how much acid it takes to lower the pH of the water sample to the bicarbonate endpoint," not just any one particular compound. ~90% of alkalinity composition is constituted by bicarbonate, with other compounds making up the remainder of the measurement (carbonate, borate, silicate, hydroxide, magnesium monohydroxylate, phosphate).

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2002/chemistry.htm

 

So yeah, I think the solution is pretty clear, buy a bucket of Red Sea Pro.

 

why red sea pro?

[youincolor]

Per RHF, alkalinity is the "measure of how much acid it takes to lower the pH of the water sample to the bicarbonate endpoint," not just any one particular compound. ~90% of alkalinity composition is constituted by bicarbonate, with other compounds making up the remainder of the measurement (carbonate, borate, silicate, hydroxide, magnesium monohydroxylate, phosphate).

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-04/rhf/feature/

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2002/chemistry.htm

 

 

 

why red sea pro?

It's all I can get in this town, and it's rated pretty high.

 

Not sure what the quote from RHF was referring to exactly.

[drakkor]

He's just saying that the borate will make the kh test higher than it would with normal levels of borate. We use the kh test to measure the bicarbonate in the water, and the borate just throws the reading off. Unfortunatly if you're kh is low and you're using seachem reef salt then the bicarbonate is even lower than you think.

 

By the way, they add extra borate to act as a ph buffer. I think you'ld be good to switch salts, I know I plan to as soon as my bucket is done.

[youincolor]

What product would best raise my kh? The new water I made up with Red Sea Pro is testing: kh - 7, cal - 450, mg - 1350. kh is still low even in the new water. I need to start raising the kh in the tank and I also need a product I can use to buffer any new water I make from now on.

[crewchef]

What product would best raise my kh? The new water I made up with Red Sea Pro is testing: kh - 7, cal - 450, mg - 1350. kh is still low even in the new water. I need to start raising the kh in the tank and I also need a product I can use to buffer any new water I make from now on.

 

Just my .02 but I don't worry much about the levels of the new water. Of course salinity, PH, temp are important but I only measure other parameters in the first batch or two of new salt. If you're dKH is off by 2 (tank is 9 new water 7) and you're doing a 10% WC the effect on the tank is only .2. Use daily dosing to keep tank parameters stable. I use BRS 2-part, receipe 1. If you only want to address alkalinity you can use baking soda or baked baking soda. First lowers PH just a little, second raises PH fairly significantly so I wouldn't use for a big change.

[youincolor]

Just my .02 but I don't worry much about the levels of the new water. Of course salinity, PH, temp are important but I only measure other parameters in the first batch or two of new salt. If you're dKH is off by 2 (tank is 9 new water 7) and you're doing a 10% WC the effect on the tank is only .2. Use daily dosing to keep tank parameters stable. I use BRS 2-part, receipe 1. If you only want to address alkalinity you can use baking soda or baked baking soda. First lowers PH just a little, second raises PH fairly significantly so I wouldn't use for a big change.

I was using daily dosing, I dose 2 part from BRS as well. I got lazy about testing and let this get to this point, your basically right though about not worrying about the new waters readings. I just need to get things balanced somehow now.

[crewchef]

I was using daily dosing, I dose 2 part from BRS as well. I got lazy about testing and let this get to this point, your basically right though about not worrying about the new waters readings. I just need to get things balanced somehow now.

 

Get your CA/MAg/dKH levels where they need to be first and then spend a week or so dosing and testing daily. When you get your daily amounts nailed down then set up some type of automated dosing. I'm still doing it manually today but have two pumps and a reefkeeper lite on the way. My evap is low enough (and consistent) that one of the pumps will do my top off and alkalinity and the other calcium. I went with the controller but could have just used digital timers to make it cheaper. There's a good thread in the DIY section.

[youincolor]

Get your CA/MAg/dKH levels where they need to be first and then spend a week or so dosing and testing daily. When you get your daily amounts nailed down then set up some type of automated dosing. I'm still doing it manually today but have two pumps and a reefkeeper lite on the way. My evap is low enough (and consistent) that one of the pumps will do my top off and alkalinity and the other calcium. I went with the controller but could have just used digital timers to make it cheaper. There's a good thread in the DIY section.

I realize this thread comes off like I don't know what I am doing, but really I just got really lazy and let the tank coast on auto pilot with out testing to see if I was keeping up with the rate of consumption. I don't know if you guys have looked at my tank thread, but my tank is all SPS and very large clams. As this thread has unfolded i have done more research to find out a multitude of things I wasn't doing right, but, I still feel like a kh of 5 is pretty unacceptable from a new batch of salt water.

 

I have a RKL, and my evap is all over the place so I couldn't use my ATO for alk, and I just haven't been able to pay for dosing pumps yet. But yeah, I do need to start over again and figure out my tanks rate of consumption for alk and cal. And I need to add the Mag part of the two part, which I haven't done in a year out of laziness and not knowing exactly how that part worked until now.

[drakkor]

Best of luck, I'm still working on getting my kh up as well, just been dosing the alk part of my b-ionic 2 part this week. What I've noticed is that it usually takes a while for values to start rising and stabalize (noticed this while I was bringing the mg up as well). My tank is not sps heavy like yours though so your milage may vary. I think you're on the right track though, get some new salt, dose and test, and when it's where you want it it should stablize. Might be able to get away with just water changes after that if you do it every week. Time will tell

 

PS. I love your tank (and your cat), those monti caps are amazing

[youincolor]

Best of luck, I'm still working on getting my kh up as well, just been dosing the alk part of my b-ionic 2 part this week. What I've noticed is that it usually takes a while for values to start rising and stabalize (noticed this while I was bringing the mg up as well). My tank is not sps heavy like yours though so your milage may vary. I think you're on the right track though, get some new salt, dose and test, and when it's where you want it it should stablize. Might be able to get away with just water changes after that if you do it every week. Time will tell

 

PS. I love your tank (and your cat), those monti caps are amazing

 

You know what I found I had forgotten, baking soda brings kh up like a point per tbs. I have it back up to 7 now over the last 3 days, a point a day. I was making it much harder on myself than it had to be. I think I will be able to get everything back on track no problem, except that I have to move the tank in two weeks or so, we are moving

 

I will probably try to use the rest of the Seachem salt, after buffering the kh with baking soda first. I got a small bucket of Red Sea Pro that I will use as well. Then I will go back to Red Sea Pro 5 gallon buckets probably.

 

Haha thanks, that cat is really dumb, and the monti caps are all dead...I'm full of bad news.

[drakkor]

Haha thanks, that cat is really dumb, and the monti caps are all dead...I'm full of bad news.