Tahitian moon sand. Is it real?

[RupertR32]

If your black sand gets ugly, then you're doing it wrong.

 

Either you need more sand sifting critters, or you need to start vacuuming your sand (it's safe in a nano-sized sandbed, for the last @#@@ing time)

 

neanderthalman is correct. If sand is not sifted then any sand would look like crap. In a tank this small you would need atleast 3 inches of dsb to get any ill effects (if any) from vacuuming the sand bed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the first time i've ever heard this, which really surprises me, because usually everything gets beat into your head about reefing here.

 

My pH is not acidic. It's 7.8 which is just not as alkaline as I would like it to be.

 

You should put some buffer in your system before you get dinos and other pests.

[lakshwadeep]

In a tank this small you would need atleast 3 inches of dsb to get any ill effects (if any) from vacuuming the sand bed.

 

You should put some buffer in your system before you get dinos and other pests.

 

Do you have a link or more specific explanation for these two claims?

[GiantBen]

Loving this pic.

[Ando]

OK here's the deal.

 

I have all of my live rock out of the tank bc I had to nuke it.. Now the LR is cycling again in another bin..

 

That's why I wanna replace the sand. Should I take out the old sand now without and rocks in my tank or wait until I can get them back in?

 

I'm thinking this because I dont have much biological filtration in my tank..

[RupertR32]

Do you have a link or more specific explanation for these two claims?

 

Dinos in a low ph level, high doc, nitrates,trace elements, and phosphate system . Always try to keep ph atleast 8.2. Dinos usually arrives with cyano and a bloom could kill your fish.

 

 

Please read on Red Tides that affect our oceans and fresh water bodies.

And here is a link to one of the many web sites that discuss treatment do get rid of it.

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html

 

 

 

OK here's the deal.

 

I have all of my live rock out of the tank bc I had to nuke it.. Now the LR is cycling again in another bin..

 

That's why I wanna replace the sand. Should I take out the old sand now without and rocks in my tank or wait until I can get them back in?

 

I'm thinking this because I dont have much biological filtration in my tank..

What ever is easier for you at this point in time.

[lakshwadeep]

Dinos in a low ph level, high doc, nitrates,trace elements, and phosphate system . Always try to keep ph atleast 8.2. Dinos usually arrives with cyano and a bloom could kill your fish.

 

 

Please read on Red Tides that affect our oceans and fresh water bodies.

And here is a link to one of the many web sites that discuss treatment do get rid of it.

http://www.reefs.org/library/article/t_crail.html

 

Here's a more recent and extensive article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

 

IMO, it's not useful to artificially inflate the pH if there are no dinoflagellates problem. In this article, it shows that tanks with pHs as low as 7.8 shouldn't cause concern.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

[RupertR32]

Here's a more recent and extensive article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

 

IMO, it's not useful to artificially inflate the pH if there are no dinoflagellates problem. In this article, it shows that tanks with pHs as low as 7.8 shouldn't cause concern.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

 

A reef tank should be kept at no lower than 8.2 for PH level. Just because they didn't have issues with their thanks does no make it correct.

 

It's not useful to artificially inflate the PH (thats just rubish)? We artificially maintain everything in a tank through water changes and dosing. Salt mix contains buffers for PH. We all know what happens when we don't do a water changes...high nitrates, high phos, depleted trace elements, low ph and whole mess of problems. But, hey thats your opinion.

[neanderthalman]

A reef tank should be kept at no lower than 8.2 for PH level. Just because they didn't have issues with their thanks does no make it correct.

 

lolwut.

 

Lets follow the logic.

 

 

R: X is true

L: citation please

R: citation given

L: X is not true -> citation given

R: One example doesn't disprove the rule.

 

 

Uh. yeah it does Rupert. Yeah it does.

[GiantBen]

Really depends on what you mean by "rule". I can say I drove my car 200mph and didn't get killed. That doesn't prove it is safe to say as a rule that people can go this fast. That said, it seems like ph levels are something a little more flexible as far as defining a "rule" for governing them.

[RupertR32]

Really depends on what you mean by "rule". I can say I drove my car 200mph and didn't get killed. That doesn't prove it is safe to say as a rule that people can go this fast. That said, it seems like ph levels are something a little more flexible as far as defining a "rule" for governing them.

 

The PH in most tanks are lowered by lack of water changes corresponding to the bioload of the system. The acid wastes, C02, and the biofiltration reduces the ph level in a tank. Guidelines are set to reduce problems, doesn't mean you have to follow them. Just like doing a certain percent a week of water changes. Thats a guide line. Sooner or later if the guide lines are not followed you end up paying for it later. That's taking a chance and sometimes it is not worth it.

 

Example:

 

You buy a new BMW M3, you drive 165mph for 20 minutes, you blow the engine, end result= no warranty will be honored. That is why there is guidelines, manuals, ect....

 

 

BTW... This not directed towards GiantBen, I just used his driving experience..

[RupertR32]

lolwut.

 

Lets follow the logic.

 

 

R: X is true

L: citation please

R: citation given

L: X is not true -> citation given

R: One example doesn't disprove the rule.

 

 

Uh. yeah it does Rupert. Yeah it does.

Actually you should read more and actually put the so called " logic" that you know into spelling "what" correctly and using proper spacing. Let's see...You have about 10k post and it shows you still have alot to learn about how ph works when it comes to the species that thrive in it (whether low or high).

[lakshwadeep]

Rupert: How do you explain those reef tanks that have only monthly or even fewer water changes without pH issues or other tanks that have pH values below 8.2 with many delicate organisms? Read this article on pH:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

 

You obviously have not been exposed to common internet spellings. Don't you think it would be logical to check the spelling and grammar of a post that is going to criticize the spelling and grammar of another?

 

Actually, you should read more and actually put the so-called " logic" that you know into spelling "what" correctly and using proper spacing. Let's see... You have about 10k post, and it shows you still have a lot to learn about how pH works when it comes to the species that thrive in it (whether low or high).

 

Your second sentence is more illogical than the first since you're implying that "species" thrive in pH, which is not a physical volume. How does that statement make sense?

[systemtool]

Just to sum this all up.. Yes.. it is really from the moon. case closed.

[nano-reefer1]

i win

[RupertR32]

Rupert: How do you explain those reef tanks that have only monthly or even fewer water changes without pH issues or other tanks that have pH values below 8.2 with many delicate organisms? Read this article on pH:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/june2002/chem.htm

 

You obviously have not been exposed to common internet spellings. Don't you think it would be logical to check the spelling and grammar of a post that is going to criticize the spelling and grammar of another?

 

 

 

Your second sentence is more illogical than the first since you're implying that "species" thrive in pH, which is not a physical volume. How does that statement make sense?

 

Species of dinos and cyano. Isn't that what the conversation was about? You couldn't grasp that? It shows that you didn't and it means you need to read MORE. Certain PH levels help certain species of dinos and cyano thrive....Did you get that? Why do you think the Mississippi River caused dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico and now has a high rate of dyno and cyano thriving in the region? Waste water with high nitrates and phosphates that in turn causes reduced PH levels.

 

The Gulf of Mexico dead zone is an area of hypoxic (less than 2 ppm dissolved oxygen) waters at the mouth of the Mississippi River. Its area varies in size, but can cover up to 6,000-7,000 square miles. The zone occurs between the inner and mid-continental shelf in the northern Gulf of Mexico, beginning at the Mississippi River delta and extending westward to the upper Texas coast.

 

 

These are facts and one of the many problems around the world. English is my third language so I'm not that good at it, but atleast I'm not arrogant like you. Hey you can't even keep your PH up....means your not doing the correct amount of water changes or using buffers!!! But, hey what do I know .....

Good luck with your system and good night.

[nano-reefer1]

wow okso now ph depends on wc,s ?????? im really effen lost guys lmao its a good thing i dont believe every thing i read

[RupertR32]

BTW....Also when a system matures it becomes better at sustaining itself longer without the having to do multiple amounts of water changes (microfauna and biofiltration has matured). This is for mature systems, not systems that are a year old. It takes a long time to get it that way. I've stated this in other threads, that's if you don't mind READING alittle. Again...the proper PH levels for a REEF tank is 8.2 -8.4. I provided everyone here with actual scientific proof not hog wash.

 

wow okso now ph depends on wc,s ?????? im really effen lost guys lmao its a good thing i dont believe every thing i read

Of course because you dilute the acids and the salt contains the buffers that increases PH and builds carbonate hardness.

 

BTW....Also when a system matures it becomes better at sustaining itself longer without the having to do multiple amounts of water changes (microfauna and biofiltration has matured). This is for mature systems, not systems that are a year old. It takes a long time to get it that way. I've stated this in other threads, that's if you don't mind READING alittle. Again...the proper PH levels for a REEF tank is 8.2 -8.4. I provided everyone here with actual scientific proof not hog wash.

 

 

Of course because you dilute the acids and the salt contains the buffers that increases PH and builds carbonate hardness.

And of course adding buffer to the system in between if needed.

[nano-reefer1]

lol my ph is stable and i do minamal wc,s but then again i run one of those unfuntional dsb,s in my nano

[lakshwadeep]

Rupert: I'm glad to see you gave links that support your views of how the Mississippi river flowing into the Gulf of Mexico is an analog to what happens in "REEF" tanks, especially the part where you gave actual pH values of that region to explain what was happening. Thank you for also giving specific pH values of natural reefs so that we can understand why a pH of 8.1 or 8.5 is dangerous, or any other location in the ocean. Thank you for proving that a REEF tank will automatically have high nitrates and phosphates because of infrequent water changes. Thank you for proving that a tank less than a year old has no possibility of surviving infrequent water changes.

 

Thank you for explaining how buffers "increase pH and builds carbonate hardness" because carbonate hardness is a measure of alkalinity, and carbonate/bicarbonate are the major, but not only, ions that influence saltwater pH.

 

Thank you for not reading my articles, which I stupidly provided to you in an easy to find form (i.e. clicking). I guess it's easy to dismiss those articles while at the same time providing information without any links.

 

I, for one, am glad to have such a scientifically accurate and humble member like Rupert to explain to us why pH levels above 8.4 or below 8.2 are doomsday sign.

 

 

...

 

 

Those who are still unsatisfied with rupert's extremely enlightening posts on what are the proper pH values can read this beginners' guide to pH below. It, along with the other articles I've listed, are written by a real chemist who knows how to research and provide correct citations of his references.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php

[RupertR32]

Rupert: I'm glad to see you gave links that support your views of how the Mississippi river flowing into the Gulf of Mexico is an analog to what happens in "REEF" tanks, especially the part where you gave actual pH values of that region to explain what was happening. Thank you for also giving specific pH values of natural reefs so that we can understand why a pH of 8.1 or 8.5 is dangerous, or any other location in the ocean. Thank you for proving that a REEF tank will automatically have high nitrates and phosphates because of infrequent water changes. Thank you for proving that a tank less than a year old has no possibility of surviving infrequent water changes.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for explaining how buffers "increase pH and builds carbonate hardness" because carbonate hardness is a measure of alkalinity, and carbonate/bicarbonate are the major, but not only, ions that influence saltwater pH.

 

Thank you for not reading my articles, which I stupidly provided to you in an easy to find form (i.e. clicking). I guess it's easy to dismiss those articles while at the same time providing information without any links.

 

I, for one, am glad to have such a scientifically accurate and humble member like Rupert to explain to us why pH levels above 8.4 or below 8.2 are doomsday sign.

 

 

...

 

 

Those who are still unsatisfied with rupert's extremely enlightening posts on what are the proper pH values can read this beginners' guide to pH below. It, along with the other articles I've listed, are written by a real chemist who knows how to research and provide correct citations of his references.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-05/rhf/index.php

 

 

You are actually really clueless when it comes to reef keeping. I have given you multiple reasons why the PH of a system would be reduced. In a closed system (our tanks) the levels of nitrates, phosphates, waste (whether organic or nonorganic) are at much higher levels than the actually reefs around the world. Water changes are one of the best solutions to maintain the correct PH and reduce wastes. The problem with the Gulf of Mexico is because of the extra phosphates, nitrates, and wastes that are entering it through the Mississippi (was used as a reference and example). What happens when you add nitrates, phosphates, wastes. You lower the PH, give favorable conditions for problems to occur, and lower water quality conditions....Do you understand? If you don't look it up...google is easy to use buddy. A chemist is not a marine biologist and I never stated that I was a chemist or marine biologist. Your actually not looking at the big picture....Oh wait!!!!

 

Here is a reef tank running proper PH levels 8.4 in the day and 8.1 at night!!!!! Enjoy and try to learn more kid....You need water changes plus the correct measures to go far in this hobby...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Btw, the info that I mentioned are from marine biologists, not chemists.... This is my last post on this topic here, because at the end you do what you want to do...

[Phyto4life]

I hate black sand j.m.o

[RupertR32]

lol my ph is stable and i do minamal wc,s but then again i run one of those unfuntional dsb,s in my nano

 

What's so funny? Get your head out of your butt and learn something besides lol and doing minamal wc and then saying two or three years later how hard it is to keep a reef tank.

Why do you think SW tanks in general get this statement? Its because of people like you that try to reinvent proper guidelines and twist it to your liking. Someone that might be new to reefing might take the bad advise and might make a mess out of their tanks.

 

Very arrogant bunch...

[lakshwadeep]

You are actually really clueless when it comes to reef keeping. I have given you multiple reasons why the PH of a system would be reduced. In a closed system (our tanks) the levels of nitrates, phosphates, waste (whether organic or nonorganic) are at much higher levels than the actually reefs around the world. Water changes are one of the best solutions to maintain the correct PH and reduce wastes. The problem with the Gulf of Mexico is because of the extra phosphates, nitrates, and wastes that are entering it through the Mississippi (was used as a reference and example). What happens when you add nitrates, phosphates, wastes. You lower the PH, give favorable conditions for problems to occur, and lower water quality conditions....Do you understand? If you don't look it up...google is easy to use buddy. A chemist is not a marine biologist and I never stated that I was a chemist or marine biologist. Your actually not looking at the big picture....Oh wait!!!!

 

Here is a reef tank running proper PH levels 8.4 in the day and 8.1 at night!!!!! Enjoy and try to learn more kid....You need water changes plus the correct measures to go far in this hobby...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Btw, the info that I mentioned are from marine biologists, not chemists.... This is my last post on this topic here, because at the end you do what you want to do...

 

Is it so hard to post a link to prove your point? Besides, can you prove that the concentrations of nitrates and phosphates found in normal reef tanks are significant compared to carbonate/bicarbonate or even borate to alter the pH?

 

It's not my responsibility to go and search the multiple sources where you got your information. You didn't do the original research, so you got it from somewhere else. If you don't have the time or decency to put specific links, you're only harming your own argument. What I've been saying all along is that what happens in the Mississippi river delta (with industrial fertilizers, sediment, and sewage) is a very poor analogy to decide what someone should do with a tropical reef tank's pH. You still haven't given any single pH values besides the ones you claim are the "ideal" values. You haven't given any information on what are the normal pH values of natural reefs or even of the ocean as a whole, which my links listed as "8.0-8.3".

 

A chemist who does enough research going to be just as aware of the chemistry principles behind marine water chemistry as a marine biologist. To imply these two fields are somehow mutually exclusive or that a chemist would spread misleading information on water chemistry is pointless.

 

Since the tank you mentioned was at 8.1 at night, aren't you contradicting your narrow ideal range of 8.2-8.4? Or, is it only okay for you to make exceptions to your own rule?

 

edit: quoted for irony:

What's so funny? Get your head out of your butt and learn something besides lol and doing minamal wc and then saying two or three years later how hard it is to keep a reef tank.

Why do you think SW tanks in general get this statement? Its because of people like you that try to reinvent proper guidelines and twist it to your liking. Someone that might be new to reefing might take the bad advise and might make a mess out of their tanks.

 

Very arrogant bunch...

[RupertR32]

Is it so hard to post a link to prove your point? Besides, can you prove that the concentrations of nitrates and phosphates found in normal reef tanks are significant compared to carbonate/bicarbonate or even borate to alter the pH?

 

It's not my responsibility to go and search the multiple sources where you got your information. You didn't do the original research, so you got it from somewhere else. If you don't have the time or decency to put specific links, you're only harming your own argument. What I've been saying all along is that what happens in the Mississippi river delta (with industrial fertilizers, sediment, and sewage) is a very poor analogy to decide what someone should do with a tropical reef tank's pH. You still haven't given any single pH values besides the ones you claim are the "ideal" values. You haven't given any information on what are the normal pH values of natural reefs or even of the ocean as a whole, which my links listed as "8.0-8.3".

 

A chemist who does enough research going to be just as aware of the chemistry principles behind marine water chemistry as a marine biologist. To imply these two fields are somehow mutually exclusive or that a chemist would spread misleading information on water chemistry is pointless.

 

Since the tank you mentioned was at 8.1 at night, aren't you contradicting your narrow ideal range of 8.2-8.4? Or, is it only okay for you to make exceptions to your own rule?

PH drop at night is normal!!!!!

Most PH drops at about .2-.3 once lights are off!!!! Due to gas exchange. Please check the PH of your system after running your lights for 8-12 hours and then take a measurement a few hours after the lights are off. You will see your tank PH fall.

 

PH falls due to waste (nitrates), low oxygen/high C02, overcrowded tank, low flow/ surface agitation, and or all of the above. This is not a fresh water or a brackish water tank to be running such a low PH. Like I stated earlier, If you have a skimmer, good water flow, and good gas exchange, and its still low, then you need to do more water changes. A reef can test out at 8.0 PH levels after a heavy down pour that doesn't mean that it runs at 7.6 -8.0 and it stays there or does it? A chemist (nonexpert) is not in the same field as a marine biologist (expert in the field). Why do you think there is marine biologists, shortages of chemists maybe? I think not. Do your research and again try to learn, because if you don't know what effects PH drop at this point of time within a reef tank then I suggest you get to it, because thats your job. I'm not going to help anyone thats arrogant like you. I offered my 16 years of experience and the experience that I've obtained from others to help you out, nothing more. I only offered advice that will help you, not hurt you. But, since I only have about 216 posts and new to this wonderful site makes my advice doo doo.

[GiantBen]

\thread

 

Get a room guys