DAVEespi - Things Are Heating Up - Come Play:)

[Guest AbSoluTc]

Just thought I would share this with DAVE and other reefers.  I agree, what has happened with the hobby?

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showt...&threadid=95223

[Nishant3789]

good post man but i dont think u understand why they change their opinions so fast. Its like a phonebook u hav e to keep gettting a new one every year just to keep up. Old information is forgotten as new information and technologies come in. ERic borneman in his first boook - a practical guide to corals wrote alot of information just to revise it again in the next book, for example, he used to have the species name for the Xenias but now he has removed them saying that its impossible to tell waht kind of xenia it is without sending it to a lab because xenias can change their form alot. so its really just something they do, they keep reviseing their ols books and writeing new ones. heck eric borneman doesnt even reccomend his old book to reefers saying its outdateds and has false information. well jmo

nishant

[Guest AbSoluTc]

I despise eric borneman!  Don't ask me why, I can not tell you. Maybe its a feeling but I will not read anything that man writes.  Him, Dr. Ron and Julian Sprung.  IMO are all a bunch of old guys that need to get out while they still have a descent name.

 

Someone younger needs to come in.  Somone not concearned with the money but more for the hobby.  Devotion is what is needed.  Not opinion.  

[Chromis]

What a jack*ss!

 

He talks about greedy people but he sounds like the selfish one - wanting the whole hobby for himself.

[Guest AbSoluTc]

OMG somone with a brain that agrees!  :alarm:  Thats amazing!

[Nishant3789]

come on now, im not saying i dont agree with you, yes the hobby shouldnt be about makeing money and greed i mean for christ sakes its a hobby, hobbys are supposed to be fun and relaxing, if all u care about is money id consider it a part time job

nishant

[Kapelakin]

Interesting that that guy had one post, and never came back. What a tool.    IMO, sounds like there are too many old dudes in the hobby who are afraid of change, or just don't want to keep up with the latest developments.  As far as the rare coral greed, I don't really keep up with that crap, so I dont have an opinion there.  

 

I think the experts do have a place in the hobby.  There are plenty of hobbyists who are responsible reefkeepers, but do not have the time or inclination to gain a marine-biologist caliber understanding of their systems.  For the, it's best to go the tried-and-true route.  One thing I find so interesting about this hobby is that it is so young and rapidly changing that there is lots of room for the dedicated hobbyist to contribute advances in technology and methodology.  Still, keeping my humble 20 gallon tank could turn into a full-time occupation if I go back to original literature and marine biology texts to formulate my own hypotheses, test, find out I'm wrong in dead live$tock, etc.  

 

Anyway, I could ramble on I'm sure, but my basic feeling is that the hobby's what you make out of it, and somone needs to call the Whaaambulance the original posters Whaaamergency.  

[Guest AbSoluTc]

I have no Idea who that person was.  However I just saw a prime opportunity to voice my opinions on Dr. Ron and the other PHD's.

 

Dr. Ron says..

Dr. Ron suggests..

Dr. Ron told me..

Dr. Ron has..

Dr. Ron insists..

Dr. Ron knows..

Dr. Ron is..

Dr. Ron states..

 

Blah blah blah blah BLAH!

[My Alife 7]

making money...? my wallets been noticeably lighter ever since I got into this hobby... I'm not complaining though, every single penny I've spent on my nano reef so far was well worth it!

[HuBu]

i agree with my alife 7. so far i have spent so much money into this hobby. and i have nothing as interesting as Sahin has in his tank. that part where he said people are fraggin stuff to make money. thats completely BS. i frag stuff and trade them with other people or give them away for free due to many reasons. like maybe to help someone out, save the reef, get variations of stuff thru trading. you can make money from selling frags but it goes both way because the person buying it also saves money.

[Dave ESPI]

CRAP THE THREAD IS CLOSED... I wanted to slam a few flamers.... I agree. I would of posted a link to here for the TRT IF YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH ABOUT REEFTANKS post I did a month or so ago. ohwell RC blows any way all thoise responses and no one said a d*mn thing they all attacked U F that. ITs all "WHATS POPULAR NOW"... I have ran my tanks the same way with minor adaptations to each system for 6 + years. I ignore all advice and take experiences with a grain of salt. Thre is no correct or perfect way to do things, but there are things we all should NOT do... that should be the focus of this hobby not Keepin up with the Jonses....

[byrself]

yeah dave, that TRUTH ABOUT REEFTANKS link would have been great.  

 

the mods on that board suck.  the dude who posted the thread was just ignorant imo. =)

[fishymissy]

I have to agree with Kaplaken, without the "experts", you would have nothing. They are the ones that have put the time and effort into studying and analyzing. If it wasn't for them, you would have given up in frustration a long time ago. I mean really, where do you think the use of LR came from? Using a DSB? Or a plenum? Stocking levels? The concept of biological filters?

Remember the line from Jurassic Park?  "You're standing on the shoulders of giants without doing any of the work yourself" (or something like that! LOL) The whole point is that these people ARE the dedicated souls that have spent most of their LIFE doing all the research, writing all the papers etc. You use their methods, yet you put them down. Is it because they're older? If you expect some teenager to come along and be more knowledgeable than these guys, you're going to have a long wait. This kind of experience takes time.....and lots of it. Why do you feel that they need to give away things? If they write a book, should they give it away for free? Because they are dedicated? Do you realise this is their career, this is how they make their money? If they spent all their time as an office clerk, do you really think they would have the time and money to do the research?

This isn't to say that they can't be wrong. After all they are human, just like you. And as Nishant said, things change all the time. You can't undo what you said 20 yrs ago. And neither can they.

 

The guy in the link seemed to be complaining more about hobbyists making money off of this hobby. I have no problem with people fragging corals and charging for them. The more aquacultured this hobby is the better it is for the hobby. It's NICE if someone gives you something, but it certainly isn't required.

 

Now I have to say something about Dr. Ron. I have a ton of respect for this man. He really knows his stuff and I do trust his opinion. There is no way that I would ever have the time or facilities to for example, study the effect of a DSB in a nano tank. I wouldn't have the knowledge or tools to dissect clams and study their digestive systems. Things like this I would not have the time, money, or inclination to do.

One thing that was brought up in the link was why he doesn't go to other forums on RC. Something maybe you don't realise is that it can get very tiring to constantly have to fend off every hobbyist that thinks they know more about micro-biology than he does, because 'they've been keeping saltwater for a whole year, and their job of flipping hamburgers is so enlightening.'  Whenever this subject is brought up, I'm reminded of a gunslinger of the Old West. ;^) You know, the one that is very, very good and all the young wannabe's come alookin' for him to shoot it out! After awhile, this kind of thing gets rather old.......

[Toyfreek]

I was going to post a much longer post but FishyMissy beat me to it. You hit the nail on the head, library reasearch is just that The people you slammed (Eric B. You didn't even know why!) all did real field research using scientific proceedures with controlls and interjected variables. Have you ever done any? and where did you publish your results against strict controlls???? I didn't think so. Get your PHD, do some real research and you can talk. Untill that do some more reading of others findings!

Toy

[NanoReefer53]

I originaly wasn't going to reply but I guess I am now. Absolutc, I have to agree that sometimes u can be arrogant. Sometimes u do what is against what u say. U say that people "follow the leader". Guess what everyone does. Do u expect everyone to go out and try out fish and corals to see how they do under certain kinds of lighting ? No, u look it up or ask people who have had experience and "follow" their advise. U say everyone jumps on the "bandwagon" and follow the latest crazes. Guess who said that they were going to use 150w HQI about a month ago ? You. Now there's threads from people actually doing research proving that it's not what it seemed at first. U say there's no more research and people should do it. Ahem, I don't see you doing any good biological research for this hobby (other than the thread about Japanese tanks and lighting, good thread by the way, i'll hand that to u). Does anyone here like a little competition ? Sure, everyone does, it's life. What's wrong with having the best corals ? Wouldn't u want one ? Sometimes absolutc, see the truth.

[rhinoivory]

I think its important that we take all into account the advice of the experts. However, we should be aiming not to just conform to what has been outlined, but allowing ourselves to expand our knowledge through experimentation. After all this is a hobby. Many people just follow what has been outlined by the "experts" and see no other alternative, I would rather experiment with new information, apply it to a system and watch the results. Thats what makes this such a wonderful hobby, the wealth of information is expandable, experts advice is golden, but those that conform to reefing "outlines" arent really gaining the maximime enjoyment out of the hobby. This may not make sense, so I will give you an example - I'm playing a shooting game such as doom or something, before I start the game I read a strategy guide, outlining ever key pint and thus I win the game, no mtrials, just a clean run. Is the game exciting? The answer is no.

 

I havent been waiting to get a reef for a year now for no reason. Within that time I have studied articles from different sources. I now have a jackpot of information, from now I am taking the most important points from all these sources and combining it to acquire a healthy vibrant reef. I dont conform to just one set of rules, take the gold, dispose of the debris, thats my opinion anyway.

 

I see where Absolutc and dave are coming from. Yes, the experts are making money from something that can be of importance to us. But this is the case with nearly everything on this planet. It's a money based world! Do we not get charged for going to a doctor for medical advice? These experts have devoted a life to the study of reef aquaria and marine processes, etc, their exchange of cash for information is a mere cost for possibly a more succesful system for our aquaria.....

 

In response to further posts, yes, there will be new talent in the reef field. The truth is the "experts" systems will become dated, and before you know it we will have some new system that will be totally diverse, yes there will be a more devoted generation in the future, and they too will be "standing on the shoulders of giants". It's like an evolution!!