Water Change vs. additives dosing

[32Bit_Fish]

step 1: saying that you "feel" that you don't have enough bacteria doesn't tell me anything. you need to determine if your tank is cycled. test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. my guess is that, if you are keeping the corals you indicated, that you are cycled and all of these will read 0 (or, ammonia and nitrite will read 0 and nitrate will read <20ppm). as such,...

 

step 2: stop doing 50% weekly water changes. if there isn't instability already, you are creating it.

 

step 3: you said that you are already keeping corals, so you certainly need to be able to determine calcium/alkalinity/pH/phosphate/salinity. buy whatever equipment you want to determine these or have them tested for you.

 

step 4: report results here. DO NOT start randomly dosing pickling lime.

 

My tank is cycled, all readings are at 0 including nitrate. How would I creating instability when the new water is temp and PH matched?

 

I will get some test kits for corals. Thanks for the advice.

[bluefunelement]

My analogy is oxygen we breathe:

room gets stuffy I like to crack open a window to get alittle breathe of fresh air.

I don't need to go into an iron lung unless I'm sick enough to require pure oxygen.

 

All of my analogies have my going into an iron lung at some point cause I liked that Jankovic song.

[timdanger]

My tank is cycled, all readings are at 0 including nitrate. How would I creating instability when the new water is temp and PH matched?

 

you create instability because temp and pH are not the only two water parameters you have to concern yourself with.

 

edit: to elaborate a little, even chemically similar water is going to have different content. your new sea water isn't going to have any of the bacteria/DOM/etc. in it that the water you're replacing would have. this is why people like to seed tanks with water from an established system.

[RLC]

My daughter and I just started doing 2 water changes a week. We do 5 gallons at a pop on Tuesday and Saturday. She has a 40 and I have a 75. It took us 20 total on both tanks. 40 min a week is not to much time. I get the RO/DI going on Sunday and I make enough for my top off and enough to do my water change. Take a look at the link below.

 

 

 

http://reeftools.com/news/water-changes-smarter-not-harder/

[Dani3d]

I am less and less inclined to do water changes as each time I does my alveopora suffer from it, or at least some part of it go in hiding mode and it takes a few days before the polyps extend fully as usual. It seem to be very happy the less I do water change and since I don't have any detectible nitrates, I don't see the point of doing it more. Even 15% seem to upset my alveopora, so I try to do no more than 10% per 2 weeks, or just 5% each week when I clean my skimmer and replace the water contained in the skimmer.

 

I do dose Coral Vite each week and give lots of food to my coral (FM ultra seafan, ultra min, chromaplex, cyclopeeze etc..). I also check the alkalinity, magnesium and calcium and add a bit if needed. So far this has worked much better for me than doing water changes.

 

Why do weekly water changes? Can we just test the water and dose accodingly?

 

Are there anything in the water that we dont test for but they get replenished by fresh salt mixed water?

 

Thanks

[Dani3d]

Because there is a LOT MORE than PH and temperature involved in saltwater. Also I think that sea water need a bit of time to mature and gain life. Basicaly an aquarium water is alive and full of phytoplankton and zooplankton, but new saltwater is totaly sterile. You are probably discarding most of your plankton and good bacterias and they don't even have time to settle, then you throw half of it and add new sterile water.

 

 

 

My tank is cycled, all readings are at 0 including nitrate. How would I creating instability when the new water is temp and PH matched?

 

I will get some test kits for corals. Thanks for the advice.

[lakshwadeep]

dani3d: It sounds like something is wrong with the water change water rather than the process itself.

[AMW]

Although I am just starting up my first nano, I have been reef-keeping for years and have found that water changes are one of the most valuable aspects to a healthy aquarium. Not only do WC reduce nitrates but it constantly replenishes the elements in the water which the coral need for growth. If I am traveling and miss a weekly WC, I can always see the negative results in the tank, eg, increase of cynobacteria, etc...Make sure that you use R/O water and bring the SG to that of your tank!!!

[nick1912]

you create instability because temp and pH are not the only two water parameters you have to concern yourself with.

 

edit: to elaborate a little, even chemically similar water is going to have different content. your new sea water isn't going to have any of the bacteria/DOM/etc. in it that the water you're replacing would have. this is why people like to seed tanks with water from an established system.

 

I thought the bacteria was in the rock/sand not the water ???

[timdanger]

I thought the bacteria was in the rock/sand not the water ???

 

well, it is certainly present in greater concentrations on the rock/sand surfaces, as well as glass and other surfaces -- but, it's also in the water.

 

and, bacteria is not the only thing in the water -- plankton, DOM, algae, etc...

[32Bit_Fish]

My daughter and I just started doing 2 water changes a week. We do 5 gallons at a pop on Tuesday and Saturday. She has a 40 and I have a 75. It took us 20 total on both tanks. 40 min a week is not to much time. I get the RO/DI going on Sunday and I make enough for my top off and enough to do my water change. Take a look at the link below.

 

 

 

http://reeftools.com/news/water-changes-smarter-not-harder/

 

Thanks for the link. The article said it all, small w/c twice a week to maintain a stable reef tank. I will try to do that and see what result I am getting.

 

 

and, bacteria is not the only thing in the water -- plankton, DOM, algae, etc...

 

I've never added any plankton, coral food in my tank. Is there plankton in my tank water?

[bluefunelement]

Thanks for the link. The article said it all, small w/c twice a week to maintain a stable reef tank.

5% twice a week does not equal 20% biweekly - since each time you are also removing a portion of the last water change. Someone better a math can come up with the actual % changed but this method is more stable. Since I lightly dose throughout the week ALK in ATO water

and CA/MG if needed every other week I think I get both stability and more water removed.

[timdanger]

I've never added any plankton, coral food in my tank. Is there plankton in my tank water?

 

yes.

 

plankton.

[RLC]

5% twice a week does not equal 20% biweekly - since each time you are also removing a portion of the last water change. Someone better a math can come up with the actual % changed but this method is more stable. Since I lightly dose throughout the week ALK in ATO water

and CA/MG if needed every other week I think I get both stability and more water removed.

 

The article states how we are all told to do 20% water change but even when we do that we run in to problems. Sure you don't get a lot out the first couple of times you do the 5% but if you get in to the routine of doing this it will lower all the junk in your water and keep it low. If you do it every 2 weeks then at the end of the 2 weeks your water is filled with junk.

 

If you clean your house every 3 days doesn't it look cleaner on a day to day basis rather than being clean a couple days then junky for a week and half?

[32Bit_Fish]

In conclusion, multiple small portion w/c is better than a bi-weekly 50% w/c.

[spanko]

....... but, it's also in the water......

 

 

If you are talking about nitrifying bacteria I would be interested to see where you have found this information. Can you post a link or give us an article or other print media?

[Billdemart]

Just did a 15% WC on my tank. Yay.

[bulldogpet]

If your LFS can get it give this stuff a try it is the bomb I have seen a huge difference in my tank I buy the 4.4gal jug for $12.00 at my LFS. I plan on just using it in my 5.5gal instead of dosing I will be keeping softies, LPS , SPS and some macro. If you can get it try it !

http://www.nutriseawater.com/

[32Bit_Fish]

I'm not planning to keep a lot of SPS in my tank. However, there are torch coral, hammer head which they need the calcium to build their skeleton? Other corals are zoas and acans.

 

I also have two fire shrimps in it and possibly keep clams in the future. Would I be fine without dosing additives, just weekly w/c?

 

I'm using instant ocean salt and I've heard it is low in calcium, mag and iodine?

 

I dont have test kits for those yet. I will get it if really necessary. Thanks

[bulldogpet]

You will be fine with just water changes. They do like an occasional feeding of Krill , Mysis or Brine shrimp.

[32Bit_Fish]

You will be fine with just water changes. They do like an occasional feeding of Krill , Mysis or Brine shrimp.

 

Feeding corals with krills mysis and birne shrimp? I dont think they will ever be able to catch it without all the water current unless you talking about spot feeding.

 

I dont know frog spawn, torch corals would accept any feeding.

 

Did anyone ever test fresh IO salt mixed water for calcium, mag and iodine?

[timdanger]

If you are talking about nitrifying bacteria I would be interested to see where you have found this information. Can you post a link or give us an article or other print media?

 

well, i wasn't limiting the bacteria present in the water to only "nitrifying" bacteria (in fact, you look at the wikipedia article i posted, and there are bacterial plankton), but yes, nitrifying bacteria is in the water. are you suggesting that it isn't? it's everywhere. it doesn't just stick to the rocks.

 

as far as showing how it lives in water, here's an example of a liquid nitrifying bacteria product: http://www.fritzpet.com/fritz-zyme-lab-test/ -- and here's bob fenner talking about liquid bacteria products: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm

 

now, denitrifying bacteria is limited to anaerobic zones (DSB, for instance). is that what you're referring to?

 

You will be fine with just water changes. They do like an occasional feeding of Krill , Mysis or Brine shrimp.

 

i'm going to politely urge that you visit the clam discussion forum before deciding to keep clams with just water changes and no calcium supplementation.

[spanko]

In terms of water changes I am under the understanding that water changes do not affect the amount of nitrifying bacteria contained in our tanks to any real degree. Just wanted to understand where you were going with your post.

Here is, I think, a good article on water changes and bacteria. Just for some more information to be added to the thread.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/newbie/index.php

[32Bit_Fish]

i'm going to politely urge that you visit the clam discussion forum before deciding to keep clams with just water changes and no calcium supplementation.

 

Yeah I see they mentioned about Calcium dosing for clam keeping in the clam FAQ thread. Also there are a lot of fish are going to nip at clam. I probably would have to stick with my clown fish if I want to keep clam.

[timdanger]

In terms of water changes I am under the understanding that water changes do not affect the amount of nitrifying bacteria contained in our tanks to any real degree. Just wanted to understand where you were going with your post.

Here is, I think, a good article on water changes and bacteria. Just for some more information to be added to the thread.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/newbie/index.php

 

right, i agree that the large majority of nitrogen-cycle-related bacteria are not swimming around in the water -- however, the nitrifying bacteria are out in the water, just in a lower concentration than on the surfaces.

 

what i am trying to convey is that, when you're doing a water change, the biological and chemical composition of the water that goes in is not going to be the same as the composition of the water that comes out. i'm trying to impress that, just because salinity and temperature (and pH or whatever else) between water sources match up doesn't mean the water from those sources is the same. and, this is why a 50% weekly water change is not a good practice.

 

are we on the same page now?