Somethin killing my fish..Experts Please

[Catspa]

Ok, not sure whats going on but somethin is killing my fish in my 7g, it really has me puzzled.. (I've got three tanks, a 2.5,7&27.)

 

 

I've got one very small firefish in the tank, recovering from Ich, but anything else I put in the tank dies within a couple of days.

 

(please bare with me)

 

First i had a small fake perc, and the firefish in the tank, both were doing great, eating, getting along..etc. (I'd had the small perc in this tank for 8 months, firefish for about 2 weeks or so). Then i tried some vitamine C supplement on their food, for reasons i wont go into, at anyrate the results were really really BAD, particularily in my 7. the fake perc(my favorit) skin ended up bubling, and glazing over, and within a day or so he died. Ok did major water changes (slowly) but i've replaced all the water in the tank from water from my 27g - ok firefish looked fine, acted fine, all back to normal, right? nope - i purchased a small royal grama and put him in the 7, again he did great for a couple of days, eating etc.. was really doing well, then one day i wake up and he's looking sick, skin a bit pail, bit frosted looking.. that night he's dead.. BUT firefish looks fine, eating etc.. tested for every thing,ph,ka,amonia,nitrite, nitrate, phos, salin. and every thing is perfect. do another major water change, using water from my 27g... everything is fine.. firefish is fine... at any rate i end up getting another tank raised fake perc, and put him in the 7 and he does fine for a couple of days, eating, socializing with the firefish, exploring..etc. At this point I put both on my main tank, everything ok, but then notice that the firefish looks like he might have a minor case of ich, so i take both him and the clown out, do a dip in Rxp and put them in my 7 again. I also treat the 7 with cupramine (copper based). Ok, everything is fine for a couple of days, firefish looks to have cleared up, clown looking good, etc... BUT then the clown starts looking like the gramma, acting funny, and have slightly dulled color, a couple of small white fleces on him, don't quite look like ich (seem to small) (the grama had a similar appearance) at any rate.. he died within a day. So one day he looks fine, the next he looks sick, and then dies shortly there after. so all the fish that have died, all had similar simptoms, but all looked really good up untill a day before there death, and through it all the small firefish has been absolutely fine.... so WTH is going on... Now i've decided that the 7g is cursed or infected by somethin, and will be retired, permanetly, but what to do with the firefish, i'm worried that if i transport him to my big tank he might carry with him, whatever has been killing the other fish in the 7...

So any ideas on what is causing this?

Any suggestions about the what to do with the firefish.. ie put him in the big tank, or take him back to the store...etc..

 

 

Any help appreciated...

 

every thing is within spec, the only thing that i can think of is that the vitamine c suplment may still somehow be lingering in the tank, though i can't see how, having changed the water entirly in the tank twice (using water from big tank plus some new) and that perhaps some fish are more sensitive to it then others... cause this all started just after adding it.. not sure

[BustytheSnowMaam]

I think that the fish were obviously stressed. The vitamin C, moving fish back and forth, the major water changes, all within a short time, could easily stress the fish and bring out disease in the fish's weakened state. Could it be the water from the 27 gallon? You say you tested the 7, but you don' say what the specs were on the 27.

 

I would start over with the 7, let it cycle for a couple of weeks, then stick to just 1 fish in the tank. If you want more "life" than that, get a cleaner shrimp or some other fascinating inverts. If you must have 2, move up to a 10 or 15 gallon.

 

Tasha

[BustytheSnowMaam]

I may not know what I'm talking about here, but it may be something in the tank absorbed that vitamin C stuff and so even with water changes it's still there.

[rhinoivory]

Firstly, I wouldn't add any more fish. You have ICH, so the best thing to do is dose your firefishs' food in garlic, I heard it helps heaps. Secondly, I really think stress plays a huge role here as tashayar said, so just leave the firefish and the clown for now, dose their food in garlic, and see how that goes, consider moving the fish to a qurantine tank, and not adding anything to your reef for 6 months, then just add a mated pair of clowns (as you said). ICH takes a while to get out of the system.

[Catspa]

I understand your concern that stress could be a factor in many cercomstances, but in this case, unfortunately, i don't think it played a factor. All water changes, are done very slowly using a slow siphone drip (takes about 4 hours), and i am very carefull to make sure all parameters are closely matched...ie salinity, ph, and temperature. The water in my 27g is very good, i've got a couple of small fish, and inverts in it, as well as some coral, and everything is doing really well.

 

In regards to the vitamine C supplement leaching into stuff, i suppose its possible, but i didn't use very much to begin with, about 3 drops were used to soke the food in, hence no more then three drops could have been exposed into the system, prior to all the water changes. While possible, its hard for me to believe that after all the the vitamine C could still be the cause... but then again I have absolutely no other explanation..?

 

Suffict it to say, all typical obvious culprits are not to blame, this is something different... just not sure what, either the vitamine C or perhaps some type of funguss...cause the fish deaths are very very quick.. ie doing great then all of a sudden, death, and symptoms seem all the same..

 

ps the first clown that died, definately died of Vitamine C supplement... and all the subsequent deaths sort of resembled his symptoms...but how can the vitamine still be the cause, and why hasn't my firefish showed any adverse reactions to it...??

[Catspa]

actually water change takes about 2+ hours not 4.

[fishymissy]

The first thing I would do is stop doing water changes with water from your 27g!!! Do water changes with fresh, clean saltwater. Even though you are running your tests, there are soooooo many things you cannot test for. Minor buildups in a larger tank can have devestating effects in a smaller one.

If you decide you must have another fish in the tank, wait awhile. Let things get stable....do some water changes.....give it a month or so.

 

I would keep the firefish in the tank, since he is obviously used to the conditions, he should be fine. I would not add garlic to the food. Since you have dosed the tank with copper, the ich should be gone. Also since you dosed with copper, you won't be able to keep inverts in that tank.

[Catspa]

Ok, i understand what your saying.. but its still isn't the problem.. I've used about 1/2 the water from the 27g, the other 1/2 is fresh batch for each of my 80%+ water changes.

 

Also in regards to the water changes, the ONLY fish that has been present during the water changes is the firefish, i've only done the water change after the death of the clown, then bought grama a couple days later, then he would die 4-5 days later, then water change, then add my new clown just die on me after 5 days or so... didn't bother with water change this time.

 

so any ideas...

 

as i said this isn't due to the typical obvious causes..

 

 

ps. yes i know about coper and inverts..

[fishymissy]

I'm getting the idea here, that the whole problem started with the addition of the firefish. You had him for about 2 weeks and then the clownfish died. Even though you had a supplement problem, it should have affected the firefish too. In fact, it should have affected the newer fish more....

 

Then you added a royal gramma, which died, then another clownfish which also died. The firefish just before the 2nd clown died showed signs of ich.

 

IF the firefish had oodinium, and had been successfully treated in the store, and IF the firefish was still carrying the parasites when you bought him, THEN he would have infected the first clown. SINCE the firefish might have had residual meds still in/on his body, he might have been able to fight off the infection, yet still spread it around. This would be just before ich showed up on the firefishes body (as ich is a secondary infection of oodinium).

The only real way to tell for sure is if, at any time did you notice ANY of the fish breathing hard? They would not necessarily be at the surface gasping, but could be mid water with heavy gilling or even at the bottom of the tank breathing hard.

 

Just thinking out loud here......

[tinyreef]

just chiming in a little but what was with the vitamin c? did you drip ascorbic acid into the food or was there a medium which the acid was combined with? did you crush a vit. c tablet into the food? what else was in the tablet?

 

i'm with fishymissy, stop the wc from the 7. then run some poly-filters to remove more 'stuff'. apply a quarantine to the tank (i.e. no more fish for a while) and basically cycle again it like tashayar recommended.

[lizbeth]

I'm voting for Brooklynella or Amyloodinium (oodinium). Do research on both and see what you think.

 

I'd also agree with using only new water for water changes. I wouldn't break down the tank just yet but put it into quarantine, adding nothing new. I'd do water changes and run poly filter as tinyreef suggested.

[Catspa]

Ok, i defanately appreciate the thinking out loud, any and all info helps

 

Its possible the firefish had something, but there were no indications the i could see (but he does have a white body, hence my late discovery of the case of mild ich). I saw no indications whatso ever in the death of the grama, and the first clown. No heavy breathing, nothing.. seemed perfectly fine. With the grama it was the day after feeding him with Vit C sup, next day he was having trouble..seemed to have a light frosting of sorts covering his body, next day he was dead... The same day the grama died i could see the clown was having MAJOR dificulties.. he was breathing heavy, had what looked like boubles on his body, and a light frosting... he was still eating, but next day he was dead.

Same day that i noticed the ich on the fire fish, i noticed that on my last clown he seemed fine, but had a litle white speckling on him - i thought it might be the ich, but it seemed smaller and less defined... the dots were a bit blured... started treating with copper.. had to go away for the weekend, when i returned last night, he was dead. (sorry if i am reiterating what i already said)

 

In regards to the vitamine C, I have a B.Cardinal that i thought might be suffering from vit. defficiecy, hes not, but thats how i ended up using the vit suplment. Its Kents' vitamine C, it sayd to add something like one drop per 10 gallons of water or something. I, fallowing advise i'd read on the net soked some food in about three drops of it, then rinced the food, then feed to fish in the 7, and the cardinal.... BUT NOTE - I DON'T THINK THE FIREFISH ACTUALY ATE ANY OF THE FOOD WITH THE SUPLEMENT ON IT - the only fishes that i know for sure ate it was the Grama and the first clown - and both died a day or two later.

 

 

in regards to Brooklynella or Amyloodinium (oodinium) - i'll look into it, but off hand, what worries me is the speed in wich the fish died - one day looking great, the next day haveing noticable problems, and the next day dead.. so this kills them within 24-36 hours of first sysmptomes being noticed... a bit extreme for a paracitice infection isn't it??

 

Keep it comeing please

[lizbeth]

Actually in Joyce Wilkersons Clownfish book it says both can kill very quickly. Brooklynella symtoms are are a thick whitish mucus coat, rapid respirataion, loss of appetite,open mouthed gasping and faded body color.

 

"Amyloodinium- Often no signs of the disease are noted before losses begin. This disease has no equal in speed and persistence with which it causes havoc in a closed system"

 

Just throwing more info your way.

[Catspa]

the more info the mairer! I'll defantly look into them, just curious how does copper meds fair with these nasties?

[Catspa]

"Merrier" (Love do edit my post but i can't for some reason)

 

Oh, just remembered something, the day my last clown started to look and act funny - Friday evening - he looked agitated and was darting back and forth along the glass, and looked a bit off... he also didn't eat very well - The evening prior (thursday night) i noticed signes of something that looked similar to ich but not quite, I went away for the weekend but i suspect, he died late saterday/early suday moring ... Anyway i gave him a dip in Kents RxP for about 15 minutes on Friday night, and aftwards, he seemed to act much more normal ie. stoped darting around etc.. but still had that odd lookingness to him - forsty.. light speckling ( i thought it might be a secondary fungal infection..) anyway as i said got back sunday and he was dead. not sure if this dip did any real good, or if it just got him out of the mental state that he was in...etc.

[fishymissy]

Oodinium is the only thing I know that can kill that quickly. Heavy gilling can be the only sign before death. This can happen in a matter of a day or so. Usually what happens is the oodinium moves into the fishes gills, because it is such an easy access for them. They start feeding and multiplying. By the time secondary ich moves in, it's usually too late. Oodinium is also known as marine velvet, so the light dusting would have been the parasites spreading on the fishes body. The treatment for this is copper.

 

Even though Brooklynella is also a fast killer, it isn't quite as fast as the oodinium. It also tends to show up in wild caught clowns and even though it can affect other fish, it usually doesn't. This parasite will also cause the fish to produce huge amounts of mucus, it will actually look like the fish is shedding skin. The treatment for this is a mix of formalin and malachite green.

[Guest LudavicoTechnique]

The false perc was under a lot of stress, but you should'nt add anything to a tank when there is a firefish with ICH anyways.

[Mr_Spam]

i'd leave it alone and just let the fire fish be the only fish in the tank.

[Catspa]

thanks for the info fishymissy , i guess untill i get any new clues, that i'll presume its Oodinium. so the frosting, could be the Oodinium, strange how fast it shows up, ie within a day of showing up on the skin the fish is dead...

 

Yes, in regards to the tank thats has the fire fish in it, its the only fish in it, and its going to stay that way, atleast untill i know i've fixed/figured out the prob, then if the firefish is healthy and not at risk of infecting anyother fish, i'll move him to the big tank and close down the 7. Its to hard maintaining three tanks..

 

Thanks everyone for all the help