southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 First off, a lil bit of background...my tank has been setup for approximately 3-4 days now (since the live rock went it) And on the second day....all i had was a nitrate test kit so i thought what the heck, might as well, test the waters to see and when the test results came in...i found nitrates present...take a look at this thread to give you a better picture of what went on http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...&threadid=19865 Ok...so i went and got my test kits from the LFS yesterday and here's the results of the tank as it stands. The only problem i'm finding is that from what i've read in many previous post, readings are in the range of 1,2,and 3's and my readings came out a lil different....it's in mg/l hopefully someone out there will be able to decipher this...i hope Here's the results: PH - 7.5 Amm - on the color chart it says 2mg/l but it asked me to compare it to my PH reading and from the table, the number i got was 0.03mg/l N02 - 1.6mg/l N03 - approx 30mg/l (which is an increase from 2 days ago) My question is this....how in the heck am i getting readings on ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at the same time? The nitrates are looking fairly high...it's almost at the last level in my color chart. Would a waterchange be necessary at this point? will the high nitrates kill all the inhabitants in the tank? Oh and kennerd (if you're reading this)...i did a test for nitrates on the water from my water treatment system and found no trace of it....or perhaps very very slight (difficult to tell with the damn color charts) Anyone kind enough to tell me what's going on? Did i do something seriously wrong from the start? Here's a breakdown of what actually happened with my tank. Fri 24/10 Tank setup Added water and salt till salinity was at 1.022 Sat 25/10 Added two layers of sand, first layer from an LFS claiming to sell beach sand that was supposedly clean and ready to go into the tank once the salinity was right. The top layer was from another LFS with just fine either grade 0 or 1 sand. I added about 20 pounds of in the first layer (devided among the main tank and fuge) and about 10-15 pounds of the other sand on top. Sun 26/10 Bought 28 pounds of LR from the LFS and placed it into the tank. After about an hour...proceeded to aquascape the rock. Lights on for only about 2 hours Mon 27/10 Later at night, Tested for nitrates and results showed 20mg/l of nitrates present in the water Lights on for approx 4 hours Tues 28/10 Test results are as shown above ??? Lights on for approx 4 hours i've read up on cycling and this is does not look like the natural progression of a cycling tank....i kinda need suggestions on what to do next with the situation...anybody??...if anyone needs me to take more readings etc...do let me know....i just don't want all the life in my rock and tank dying on me in the next couple of days... Sorry about the long post...i tend to get a little long winded at times.....help would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment
tinyreef Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 it ain't the nitrates you should worry about but the ammonia and nitrites. they're much more poisonous to everything. you could have some of either while producing nitrates. it's unusual but not unheard of. i can believe you're having a fair amount of die-off since your pH is so low (probably organic acids). if you want to do a wc, go for it. i'm thinking more like espi nowadays when starting up a system. try to save as much of the LR's hitchhiking fauna during cycle. if they're exposed to minimal levels of cycling then more will survive and provide a more diverse biotope (ergo healthier and more stable system). up to you which way you want to go. nothing wrong with letting the system 'burn thru' the cycle either. most people do it that way. (doesn't make it better or worse tho) Link to comment
mattie Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 even though what your coming across sounds slightly strange I wouldn't worry just don't try to rush things along allow the tank to run and cycle for the 4 weeks don't do any water changes just watch the temp and salinity to get an eye for evap and how fast things change. at the 4 week mark do all you tests and change out 30-40% of the water retest and see if you need another 2 weeks of cycle time before you start adding things you could probably add the clean up crew after your water change and if every thing is within reason Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 Thanx for the quick reply tinyreef. I would have to agree on the mindset of doing the water change during the cycle to preserve the various hitchhikers and fauna but wouldn't that prolong the cycling period? The way i see it....if my nitrates are spiking this high now, there must be enough bacteria in the LR to be converting all the waste. I don't see it being a problem if i did a water change seeing that the whole point of leaving the system as is, is so that it allows the system to mature and for the bacteria to populate to a point where it is capable of handling the future bioload. Am i making any sense or way off? With regards to my PH....what is the suitable level and how do i get the tank to that level? would a buffer be required? Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 Hi mattie...thanx for your response as well....seems to me that there's two camps to the whole waterchange deal. Another question i have is that if my nitrates are already this high now....how will it dissipate from the system without a waterchange? wouldn't it continue to climb? If i left it for the next 4 weeks....would that be detrimental in anyway to the inhabitants in the tank? Tinyreef made a good point about the ammonia and nitrites being more poisonous but i'm thinking with the way my nitrates have been produced, there should be enough bacteria in the LR to handle those two but what's to handle the nitrates? Link to comment
mattie Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 they will rise i understand but as long as you don't have any fish or corals yet there would be no harm if there were some neat hitchhikers that you are trying to keep you could try the water changes but that is not following the proven model for cycleing a tank and it is not proven what water changes during the cycle have on the cycle my assumption is that it would lengthen the time for things to fully cycle and what fauna and hitchhikers Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 Well...as of now...i have two lil crabs and a originally had two hitchhiker clams but one of em seem to have dissapeared into a hole....i hope he didn't die. there is also i think a couple of zoos popping up here and there....but i really am not sure if they're actually zoos either. they're not in colonies but a sole polyp in different parts of the LR Link to comment
mattie Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 oh i see you don't want hitch hiker crabs they grow fast and will do damage I had a bad experience with an emerald which is reef safe it ate zoo's gsp and polyps. but it sure did make the tank clean of algae and macro algae which has started to grow back since I gave hin back to the LFS Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 ah heck...i guess i'll just sit this cycle through and see what comes out of it....seems to me so far that the crabs aren't worth saving....hopefully the clam pulls through.... still haven't gotten an answer on the ph question tho...what's the suitable ph level and how do i get it up to that level?? Link to comment
mattie Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 7.9-8.5 just aim for 8.2 you can use ph buffer I've just been lucky that i have never had a PH problem so thats not my best area. (knocking on wood) i used araganite sand cause it's supposed to buffer ph and calcium a little which has worked great for me I'm surprised you are having any problem this early out for now just leave the crabs and at the end of the cycle you can trap them and remove them easily with a class and some nori. here's the thread about my emerald crab and some one was nice enough to post a pic of them catching there crab http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...&threadid=18876 you should wait 2 weeks to see if the ph changes and recheck it at 1.024 salinity to see if its better then oh yea I like your tank that is a sweet custom fuge Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 Thanx for the heads up.....would it be alrite if i waited it out and not add buffers to the tank for now? what inhabitants would be affected by the low PH? i'm think i'll leave things as is in the tank till this weekend and test again to see if anythings improved....do you think i should raise my salinity too? i think it's around 1.022 - 1.023 now....i kept it a lil lower just to combat evap...i'm not around at times and figured if i miss a top up one day it'll only raise to 1.024 max so gives me a lil breather till i set up my auto top up system. ur thread was pretty entertaining....what with the dead clown and all.... and as for the custom fuge...i can't take full credit for it....had been researching around for a fuge for a while and finally came up with a hybrid....my only mistake i made was in making the baffles a lil too high....the water flows like an inch from the top of the fuge....a lil risky if my output is plugged or clogged....but so far so good. Link to comment
Quash Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 I dunno if you been following me, but I went off the deep end when I wasnt getting, numbers. Patience and time will tell. Everytime I think I know everything, something bad happens, and I go nuts. I would suspect your Ca as the culprit of your low pH. Thats what happened to me. Ca, helps affect alk, and pH. if its not the Ca thats helping out its the low Mg thats keeping Ca low which in turn lowers pH. I would write out this equation from my organic chem teacher, it was like 3 lines long of ions. um No, but I would pinpoint your Ca Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 Hey Quash...thanx for the info...unfortunately...i haven't gotten me a Ca test kit so i've no idea what my Ca is at this point. Interesting story/thread u got there....seeing that my tanks only been up for a couple of days....i'll try and sit it out first and wait till the two week mark before i decide to add any buffers to it. At least that's what i'm understanding from all the various post i've read.....will give the system sometime to mature a lil and try not to freak as much....funny....i thought i used to freak but urs is funny as heck....no offense meant tho....i kinda know how ya feel.... lemme know when ya finally got pics up of ur tank.... Link to comment
Quash Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Yeah Ive got pics, this weekend, Ima borrow the girls camera and take pics with the pseudo in it, and Ill update that thread, I was hoping to get the camera today...but thats life. Pics of the cycling tank are at http://webspace.utexas.edu/ahe58 under fish tank, my faves are tankbest and tanksexy Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 Lookin good Quash....i like the lil arch in the middle.....how stable is the rock support? Will look out for the updated pics..... Link to comment
kennerd Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Originally posted by southpaw23 ah heck...i guess i'll just sit this cycle through and see what comes out of it.... Smartest thing I've read all week. Pop a water change, as tiny suggested, and give it a little time. Balance is the most important thing in starting a reef, and the easiest thing once it's there (aside from spending $$ on livestock: I'm a frag whore). Maintaining as much of a balance through the cycle is important, because the rock is worth the price you paid, the little guys in/on the rock are the golden ticket. Yeah, it's possible to experience what you have running now, albeit uncommon. The fact that it's really nothing more than a "Live Rock Curing Tank" right now is excellent in that you're not worried about corals, fish, inverts yet. Link to comment
tinyreef Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 but wouldn't that prolong the cycling period? yes, most likely but you should plan on waiting out 4~6 weeks anyway. the denitrating bacteria should be noticeable by then (i.e. lower nitrate levels). seems to me that there's two camps to the whole waterchange deal. at least that many camps. it's up to you on it, depending on your level of patience and quality of LR. wc's for barren 'cured' startup LR would be needless and wasteful imo. whereas wc's on very fresh uncured LR would be almost a necessity (besides aiding survival of hitchhikers, it would limit massive die-offs which would in turn truly lengthen the cycle time). hth Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 excelent advice Kennerd and Tinyreef, i can't thank y'all enough...as with the others too of course...will get to the water change tomorrow or the day after...i'm assuming a 10-20 percent water change is sufficient? what's a good amount to change out?. thanx again..... Link to comment
kennerd Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Go 10%, conservative, but enough to make a difference. Make sure you top off your tank first w/ fresh & the salinities match & temp is at least close to one another. Link to comment
Quash Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Originally posted by southpaw23 Lookin good Quash....i like the lil arch in the middle.....how stable is the rock support? Will look out for the updated pics..... Pretty stable, it worked out well, that the grooves in the rock go well with the two supporting rocks. I put it in pretty good I think, snails walk from rock to rock all the time, water flow doesnt budge it, and pseudo hasnt tried any moves, so Its good. I would say that the rock moves when i push it kind of hard, its lateral movement. so im not worried about any lateral anything. Link to comment
southpaw23 Posted November 5, 2003 Author Share Posted November 5, 2003 Hi guys...sorry for the absense.....just a quick update on my lil situation there... i added more liverock to the tank on saturday or sunday (can't remember) and retested the waters the day i got ur advice Kennerd and found that amonia was dropping some so i decided to skip the water change and let the system handle itself and mature... well, i took a reading again yesterday and amonia has dropped to the 5mg/l mark and nitrites remain high or i think have climbed some since i last took a reading...the tank has been in cycle for about 10 days now.... but heres the biggest mystery....all my nitrates are almost gone...it gave very slight readings of nitrates as compared to before where it was pretty darn high over the weekend. i even did the test twice to make sure. now my question is...where'd all my 'trates go? was the bacteria in the rock capable of dissipating the existing nitrates in my system? the last i had check was about 5 days ago and it was on the high side...now there's almost none... ??? on the brighter note....the graph is starting to look more like the regular cycle with my ammonia dropping and my nitrites starting to spike with no or little signs of nitrates.... as before....i'm just going to keep an eye on the tank and see how it progresses....just thought i'd letcha know and see if anyones got any feedback on the situation.... btw....my sand beds getting pretty covered with detrius...is this common as well during the cycle...still no sighs of diatoms tho...oh and tank temp is on the high side...around 82-83...anyone see this as a problem....i currently have my 4 inch fan sitting at the top of my fuge to aid with evap and temp but i'm thinkin the water surface area might be too small to cause a good drop in the overall tank temp....i use to have the fan directly over the main tank and that would bring the temp down to 78-79...i might have to go that route but that would change my current setup, which i'm not too fond of....any other suggestions? an iceprobe is not an option coz i have no access to one around here. well, thanx again for listenin/reading/givin advice.... Link to comment
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