mattie Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 in my 14 years of marine fish I have never done a dsb becouse of the chance of things going bad. But I went 3 inch deep in my fuge with ultra fine size arganite and there is about an inch+ in my 20g with the same stuff. I have never used fine sand before either. i wanted to get it for goby's so it would not hurt there little gills but when I tried to siphon out the fine sand bed all the sand started coming out so I was leaving the detrus on the bottom and was just blowing it around every 2 two weeks but after the tank has been up for almost 4 months there was gettin to be so much I tried agian to remove it and tried to limit the flow to limit the amount of sand leaving the tank I noticed something that I wasn't familiar with 1st there was a crunchy firm layer about 1/2 inch down like a sheet of growth under the sand covering the hole bottom. then 2nd what freeked me out was the aquarium has no real smell but the water I was siphoning out had a strong smell of rotten eggs like sulfur I have never come across this before I basically want to learn more becouse I have read that you can create a dsb with fine particles in less depth. If anyone can give me some great links on this or solid advise on this matter I have seen some of the past forums but I didn't find info that I havn't heard before Link to comment
onthefly Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 http://www.rockymountainreefclub.com/article4.html This site has a pretty good pro and con debate about DSB's and silica sand as well. HTH BTW, I run a DSB on both my tanks! Link to comment
mattie Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 thank you very good resources on the dsb I'm still not sure what the smell is i'm thinking it may be detritous pockets growing under the rocks but I'm not sure Link to comment
Dingo Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Go to reefcentral.com. They live on the DSB over there. I tried it in my 55 with little success, but my nitrates plumetted when I put macro down in my sump with a 6500K twisty PC light from home depot. I probably didn't do the bed quite right, though. I hate fine sand. The prevailing opinion seems to be that they work great for about 4-5 years, and after that time, all of the sequestered gunk starts to leak, and the bed needs to get replaced. Putting it in the Fuge is the way to go. (The people here are way more fun, so come back...) Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Geebus Krust.... ! If U thought my speeialing was bad.... But I do it on purpose most of the times... DSB ? BOOKS, and REEF-SEARCHIN'.... d00d. The Answeres are all there. FWIW, DSB in the very near future will be proved to be more trouble than they are worth as they produce more noxious side effects once disturbed in longterm situations, than the Jaubert, or other systems. Mark my word OCT 2003.. I spoke . TRUTH to be seen ... Link to comment
drdrew Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 the main deal that i see here is that you tried to siphon...i imagine to vacuum the deep sand bed. they are to be left alone and not vacuumed as you do with crushed coral. dave...if DSB becomes obsolete, what will replace it....barebottom? crushed coral and vacuuming? i imagine a 1-2 inch bed would also eventually get clogged with crap like the DSB...if it's the slow build up of detritus in an unvacuumed space....? Link to comment
mattie Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 I did find something about the smell and what happened I didn't know it could be ultra bad to manually stir the DSB here was a link I found helpful http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I have ran 7 reefs with Jaubert Plennums fer many years sofar with a mixed sand bed/ grain size and reef rubble. THey perfoprm flawlessly. yeah. I'm un orthodox, but then so is the ocean and Mother Nature. Link to comment
onthefly Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Like he predicted the return of........Bell bottoms and Volkwagon beetle. Mark your calendars....Oct 2003....Dave predicts the return of the undergravel filter and bubbling treasure chests Hopefully, these predictions fall alittle short like his prediction for Wham reunion tour and the magical return of Day-glo. Sorry Dave, I had to do it! Like Dave, I have had DSB/plenum in my 45 for 5 years......broke it down once at year 2.5.......flawless so far. I use sifting gobys to keep the sand stirred. As for as my 5.5....I have seen Nitrogen bubbles in the sand bed since day 7......I never even saw Nitrates come up during my spike.....They have been ZERO for 4 months now.......seems to be working quite well. I do watch it like a hawk though.. Link to comment
skylsdale Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 The primary reason for the DSB is so people can avoid siphoning out fish crap from their systems. It was for the lazy, and supposedly hailed as something you "had to have" by certain assanine doc's...who a few years later claimed the sky was falling and that they needed to be ripped out of systems. DSB's are nothing more than a nutrient sponge in your tank. Period. You can try to explain it away as much as you want, but in the end their sole purpose is to soak up the built up nutrients and junk in your tank. The problem is that we're dealing with a relatively small and finite volume...and it's only a matter of time before it gets full. That's when stuff hits the fan. If you visit various other reef boards, you will see a rather common occurance of those who have had their DSB's up for 4-5 years...and their tanks have gone straight to hell. Even the LR becomes oversaturated with nutrients, leading to uncrontrolled nuisance algae, coral bleaching, etc. in tanks that were otherwise thriving and healthy. Once the DSB is saturated, the only option is to COMPLETELY REPLACE IT. You can spend money every year introduce new fauna packages from various vendors and recharging it with biodiversity on an extremely regular basis...but at some point its going to reach maximum overload. All this to avoid siphoning out some crap every once in a while. if DSB becomes obsolete, what will replace it....barebottom? Yup. I know people have a hard time imagining life without the DSB..or Radiums...or XM's...or 7 gal bowfronts. But this, too, shall pass. Link to comment
mattie Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 well I haven't found what I wanted exactly becouse several claimed benfits sound to good to be true. the practice has not been around that long the amount of people saying things like its a sponge and can cause crashes down the road makes one sceptical. the sponge part makes sense logically the danger's of distrubing the DSB are not yet fully understood by me yet. i understand it's similiar as to try to reproduce what happens in nature but being lazy with marine fish doesn't sound good for long term health so i'm still interested in good links and resources. I have a feeling that this subject is still in debate onthefly what gobys do you used to stir the sand bed becouse I have read different things about stirring the bottom Link to comment
onthefly Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 IME... Gold headed Sleepers and Diamond Gobys will sift fine, but don't take flake or prepared foods that well. In the long run, I've never had one live longer than 6 months. I was at my LFS and he told me that Banded Gobies (AKA Dragon Gobies) are the best because they survive perfectly fine on prepared foods. In fact, mine has lived for 2 years now and often swims near the surface around feeding time. Plus, I think they are the best looking of the three. Keep in mind, it isn't REALLY stirring the DSB, just sifting the upper layers and 95% of the sand is undisturbed. IME.....I have never had my Plenum/DSB crash on me. The goby does dig down pretty deep, but my system is a plenum, covered with 1.5 to 2 inches of sand, then a fine screen (to keep the bastard from digging too deep, then 2-3 inches of sand on top of that. So, in a couple of spots (places where he's dug a hole under a rock) my sand bed is 1.5 to 2 inches deep, but over the bulk of the floor, it's 4 to 5 inches. Never had a "smell" come from my tank and my trates have always stayed under 20ppm (not bad for a FOWLR with 7 fish feed pretty heavily). My 5.5ga is 2.5 inches of fine silica, no plenum.....NO3=ZERO!!! Yes, there are those that say that all I'm doing is cheating w/c's......YOU BET! In a FOWLR I don't see a problem with it!!! In my 5.5ga......I still do weekly w/c's.......I still dose Ca and trace......and I still see hundreds of Nitrogen bubbles in the sand bed....and still have a NO3 reading of ZERO! In fact, I think that's killing an outbreak of feather caulerpa. No problem! HTH Link to comment
skylsdale Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 i understand it's similiar as to try to reproduce what happens in nature The problem is that the conditions of a typical DSB is the complete OPPOSITE of conditions on the natural reef. In nature, much of teh sandbed is actually aerobic, with smaller portions being anaerobic or anoxic. In our systems, it's the anoxic areas that comprise most of the DSB because that's the part that takes care of denitrification and that's the process we want to occur. Not so on the reef. The DSB is NOT creating natural conditions in your tank...don't be fooled by that statement. Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Some more food fer thought... those sand sifter fish dont give a wrasseass where they dump the escavated sand after they "sifted" it. Why are those fish Sifting it ? derrrrrrrr they are EATING all the life in the sand, and spiting out the junk..... not to mention the irritation and constant need of your corals to blow the sand off, or you to constantly be doing it with a turkey baster. Sand sifting gobies, jawfish, and the likes of which do NOT go well in heavily stocked SPS or LPS, stoneys or clam tanks... or just about ANY reef tanks. stirring it with you hand or a wooden "spork" used for cooking or pasta is great way to dig up sections of sand and check it for cementation. Nitrogen gas GOOD. Sulfide gas BAD. Put the 2 together, and get one hell of a nasty smelling odor from yer DSB that seriously fouls yer water and nasal passages. Dark Black sediment will build up due to bacterial and biological breakdown..... nast-nast-nasty crap fer sure. As to UGF's and Bubblers.... ??? LOL they still work, but not reccomended.... UNLESS you are willing to break them down every 2 years. I do it to my Freshwater tanks also. Some really bad bacterias can be lurking there if the water flow isn't of a decent volume and evenly sifting down through the bed. I have ran a few tanks with Bare bottom. It does 3 things. facilitates superb Detritus removal, Eleminates worry about sedimentation, Rules out the "crash of microfauna" scenario and becoming a "Nutrient bomb" HOWEVER, bare bottom does NOT help with PH or ALK adjustments, and it can cause issues with them in fluctuation. I reccomend a bare bottom with a seperate area (fuge, Sump, Large HOB) in which you can put flossbags W/ some Aragonite sand to keep all that good and steady within reason. Many people are just now reaching the "5 Year point" with their DSB tanks ,as it was around 1998 that they became "trendy" to do. Personaly, if i had a choice.. to "Take it or Leave it".... Id leave it in a dumpster right next to the aborted fetuses from UN-Planned Parent(Reef)hood. Link to comment
Jahkaya Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 To tag along with what dave said, I agree with the DSB out of the Show Tank. Why Not just have a Shallow sand bed, 1" or so, just enough for looks and to hold the rocks in place and have your DSB in your Fuge. This way one could, if need be, replace all the sand and Micro fauna once every five years without worries. Plenums, however do work well. The Pres of my reef club has a 250 with a 100 gallon sump and 100 gallon fuge. He has a 8" DSB in the fuge with a plenum that has been running for about 11 years without fail. So far this tells me that plenums do work. Link to comment
onthefly Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Totally true again Dave, My Grandmother was at my house this weekend and was complimenting: "how clean and bright white my sand was" and "how she loved how I made it shallow in some areas and deeper in others" Kinda looks like a sand wave against the front glass. To Which I answered, "Don't thank me, thank the goby!" They will F-up any sand arrangments and you better have you LR wall stable as hell, cuz they'll undermine it and the great wall will fall!!!!! The bottom levels of my LR are covered with LS........nothing you can do! It's fine in my FOWLR, but I wouldn't have one in a reef setup......go with nassarius or cerith snails! I still have plenty of life in the bed......can see 50-60 worms and pods up against the glass.....I guess the goby keeps'em in check! Link to comment
mattie Posted October 12, 2003 Author Share Posted October 12, 2003 okay i've decided no goby I think I'm just going to lower the depth of the sand to <3/4 inch to avoid long term problems in the main tank and I'm going to leave fuge alone with its 3 inch depth and use the sand for a new tank thank you very much for the advice I wasn't sure what was happening Link to comment
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