Reef buffer effects on KH?

[themadride]

my water parameters are all about flawless, but my PH is ranging between 7.4 and 8.0 depending on the time of day.

 

I have some Seachem Reef Buffer, but is says that it will also raise KH.

Both my Calcium and KH are at the VERY HIGH END OF THE CHART as it is.

 

Should I worry about the Reef buffer raising my KH to unacceptible levels? What are the effects of excessively high KH?

[lakshwadeep]

The pH change is normal because photosynthesis (and so carbon dioxide absorption) stops when the lights are off. Although the range should be between higher numbers.

 

What test kit are you using? What else are you dosing?

[themadride]

Thanks for the reply.

 

I understand about it being normal for the PH to change. I'm using an API Reef Master Test Kit.

 

I just started dosing Koral Color at 1/2 the recomended dosage a couple of weeks ago, however the Calcium and KH levels have been at this level ever since I began testing them, several weeks before I started doing the light dosing.

 

So, In addition to my first questions, assuming I do use the PH buffer. Should I dose to achieve 8.3 as the low end of the daily range or as the high end of the daily range?

[The Propagator]

Unanswerable with out knowing what brand of PH buffer we are talking about.

 

Some have no effect on KH (as per the label any way) and some have great effects.

[themadride]

I did list the brand and type in my first post, but no big deal.

 

Seachem Reef Buffer

 

 

Also, adding to my list of questions, how does KH meq/L convert to degreesKH or ppm KH, because the latter two are the only readings from my test kits, but meq/L is how it's listed in the reef buffer directions.

 

EDIT: I also mentioned in the first post that the product says it raises KH as well as PH, but again, no big deal.

Just so there is no confusion, here is the label text verbatim:

 

"Check PH and alkalinity before use. Use 5g (1 level teaspoon) for every 150L (40 gallons) to raise pH by about 0.1 pH units (this will aslo raise alkalinity by about 0.5 meq/L). Dissilve in at least 250 mL (one cup or freshwater, then add to the tank. Blaa blaaa............Alkalinity should not exceed 6 meq/L. If an alkanility of 6 meq/L has been reached and a pH of at least 8.20 has not been attained or substantial cloudiness that does not clear within 15 minutes is encountered, then the system is not ionically balanced."

[themadride]

Just FYI. So far I've answered one of my own questions:

 

1 meq/L = 50 mg/L

 

1 mg/L = 1ppm

 

So, 1meq/L = 50ppm

 

From here: http://swatlab.nmsu.edu/conv.html

 

If I'm wrong I hope someone will correct me.

[lakshwadeep]

A good article on alkalinity:

http://ozreef.org/library/articles/alkalinity.html

 

(click on the conversion table link for more info)

[The Propagator]

God I hate it when I reply to posts late at night. I miss the freaking 800 lb gorilla every time !!

[shan]

my water parameters are all about flawless, but my PH is ranging between 7.4 and 8.0 depending on the time of day.

 

I have some Seachem Reef Buffer, but is says that it will also raise KH.

Both my Calcium and KH are at the VERY HIGH END OF THE CHART as it is.

 

Should I worry about the Reef buffer raising my KH to unacceptible levels? What are the effects of excessively high KH?

 

Just curious if you have natural gas heating in or near the tank room?

[makonut]

I used to use the SeaChem Buffer. I saw no problems with it, but I used it mainly in my makeup freshwater to insure that the makeup water alkalinity was high. I no longer use it as I now use Kalkwasser powder (CaOH) in the makeup water; this raises the pH, adds Calcium, and helps maintain alkalinity. Seachem did not raise the pH; it is a buffering solution using carbonate ions versus hydroxyl ions as generated by Kalkwasser.

 

The only concern I would have with excessively high alkalinity (KH) would be that this would lower the Calcium saturation point in the tank water. In other words, it would make it hard to get 400 ppm calcium levels as the higher alkalinity causes the Ca to precipitate out of solution.

 

Hope this helps.

[themadride]

A good article on alkalinity:

http://ozreef.org/library/articles/alkalinity.html

 

(click on the conversion table link for more info)

 

Thanks for the link. It helped. I tell ya, this problem is just down right frustrating to a fine arts grad who almost flunked all chem and math classes. I couldn't get the conversion table link to load. Not sure why. Do you know if it confirmed my earlier figures or not?

 

 

God I hate it when I reply to posts late at night. I miss the freaking 800 lb gorilla every time !!

 

 

Just curious if you have natural gas heating in or near the tank room?

 

No natural gas in the house, all electric. I assume you were thinking I had a small CO2 leak?

 

 

I used to use the SeaChem Buffer. I saw no problems with it, but I used it mainly in my makeup freshwater to insure that the makeup water alkalinity was high. I no longer use it as I now use Kalkwasser powder (CaOH) in the makeup water; this raises the pH, adds Calcium, and helps maintain alkalinity. Seachem did not raise the pH; it is a buffering solution using carbonate ions versus hydroxyl ions as generated by Kalkwasser.

 

The only concern I would have with excessively high alkalinity (KH) would be that this would lower the Calcium saturation point in the tank water. In other words, it would make it hard to get 400 ppm calcium levels as the higher alkalinity causes the Ca to precipitate out of solution.

 

Hope this helps.

 

That did help. Only one thing confusing me. Are you saying that the Reef Buffer raised your KH but didn't effect your pH at all? That is the whole point of the product it seems....so that's discouraging. Are you saying I should expect the same results? Or was there something about the way you used it that changed its effect? Or I may have misunderstood what you said. Thanks.

[The Propagator]

Closed top or open tank ?

[Militant Jurist]

Oddly enough, I'm having the exact same issue (high KH, high Ca, same swing in pH). I'm not dosing anything other than calcium. I have just recently switched to open top. I have to do a LOT more top offs with FW, so perhaps that is lowering the pH?

[makonut]

Thanks for the link. It helped. I tell ya, this problem is just down right frustrating to a fine arts grad who almost flunked all chem and math classes. I couldn't get the conversion table link to load. Not sure why. Do you know if it confirmed my earlier figures or not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No natural gas in the house, all electric. I assume you were thinking I had a small CO2 leak?

 

 

 

 

That did help. Only one thing confusing me. Are you saying that the Reef Buffer raised your KH but didn't effect your pH at all? That is the whole point of the product it seems....so that's discouraging. Are you saying I should expect the same results? Or was there something about the way you used it that changed its effect? Or I may have misunderstood what you said. Thanks.

 

Sorry if I confused you. The key thing to remember is that a buffering agent primarily prevents the pH from dropping. I used the Seachem Marine Buffer; the Reef Buffer's materials work most effectively at maintaining slightly higher ph (their website says 8.6); it is the alkalinity that prevents the pH drop and they formulated this product to hold it higher. This is what alkalinity refers to; the higher the alkalinity reading the more acid it will take to lower the pH. Hence you could have a high alkalinity reading at a ph of 8.2 and will maintain this pH as the alkalinity is buffering it; as the buffering agents are used up, the pH may start to drop below 8.2.

 

Therefore, the buffer will have some affect on raising the pH as it lowers the concentration of acidic ions, but the most effective way to raise your pH is to use a strong base in water, such as kalkwasser, but to rapid an increase can do more damage then good.

 

In my case, my tank's pH was 8.0 to 8.3, so I used the buffer to help maintain this. As my bioload in the tank was high, the buffer did not raise the pH or at least to where I could measure the raise.

 

I hope that this helps.

[themadride]

Closed top or open tank ?

 

 

Oddly enough, I'm having the exact same issue (high KH, high Ca, same swing in pH). I'm not dosing anything other than calcium. I have just recently switched to open top. I have to do a LOT more top offs with FW, so perhaps that is lowering the pH?

 

 

I have an open tank. I too have a LOT of FW top offs. Seems like a decent guess that this is lowering the pH. Maybe someone will solve it for us.

 

I'm adding approximately 1/2 gallon of FW top of daily on the 20gallon system.

 

Sorry if I confused you. The key thing to remember is that a buffering agent primarily prevents the pH from dropping. I used the Seachem Marine Buffer; the Reef Buffer's materials work most effectively at maintaining slightly higher ph (their website says 8.6); it is the alkalinity that prevents the pH drop and they formulated this product to hold it higher. This is what alkalinity refers to; the higher the alkalinity reading the more acid it will take to lower the pH. Hence you could have a high alkalinity reading at a ph of 8.2 and will maintain this pH as the alkalinity is buffering it; as the buffering agents are used up, the pH may start to drop below 8.2.

 

Therefore, the buffer will have some affect on raising the pH as it lowers the concentration of acidic ions, but the most effective way to raise your pH is to use a strong base in water, such as kalkwasser, but to rapid an increase can do more damage then good.

 

In my case, my tank's pH was 8.0 to 8.3, so I used the buffer to help maintain this. As my bioload in the tank was high, the buffer did not raise the pH or at least to where I could measure the raise.

 

I hope that this helps.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying. Whatever I decide to do....I will proceed slowly.

[makonut]

Are you replacing the evaporated FW with regular RO or distilled water?

 

If you are having to add a lot due to high evaporation, this may be keeping your pH in the low region. I am not sure what RO water's typical pH is, but distilled is normally around 7, depending on the container it is stored in and distillation procedure. Over time, this will lower your tank pH, depending on how often you do salt water changes and what pH your fresh salt water is.

 

Just something to check.

 

I also forgot to ask: Other then this pH concern, how is your tanks animal life doing? At the end of the day, they are the best indicator of tank health.

[themadride]

Are you replacing the evaporated FW with regular RO or distilled water?

 

If you are having to add a lot due to high evaporation, this may be keeping your pH in the low region. I am not sure what RO water's typical pH is, but distilled is normally around 7, depending on the container it is stored in and distillation procedure. Over time, this will lower your tank pH, depending on how often you do salt water changes and what pH your fresh salt water is.

 

Just something to check.

 

I also forgot to ask: Other then this pH concern, how is your tanks animal life doing? At the end of the day, they are the best indicator of tank health.

 

The tank is doing great otherwise. No deaths, corals growing and spreading quickly, all other parameters in check. Inverts molting frequently, fish are active and apear disease free.

 

I am adding Distilled water. I see your point on the pH of FW I'm adding, BUT....if the pH of the distilled water is low, wouldn't the KH also be low? If so, should it be lowering BOTH my pH and KH over time in the main tank?

 

Do I need to switch to a different water, or just use the buffer on fresh water as I add it?

[makonut]

The tank is doing great otherwise. No deaths, corals growing and spreading quickly, all other parameters in check. Inverts molting frequently, fish are active and apear disease free.

 

I am adding Distilled water. I see your point on the pH of FW I'm adding, BUT....if the pH of the distilled water is low, wouldn't the KH also be low? If so, should it be lowering BOTH my pH and KH over time in the main tank?

 

Do I need to switch to a different water, or just use the buffer on fresh water as I add it?

 

If your tank is doing great, then I would not change anything that you are doing. You are doing what it takes to make the tank thrive. Sometimes, changing how things are being done, even if you feel it will help, may actually upset the balance you have established.

 

As for distilled water, it's pH is not low it is actually neutral or close to it. So there is no excess hydroxyl or acid ions that could react with the buffering properties of your tank. What happens in a tank is the breakdown of food, waste, etc... actually slowly increase the acid content of the tank water and this is what lowers the pH; the buffering agents react with these materials to prevent the pH lowering. So the distilled water is not adding to this acid concentration. It is more involved then this, but I hope that this make sense.

 

FYI, I do add kalkwasser to my distilled make-up water. This enables me to add calcium and alkaline buffers whenever I add FW.

 

Also, note that corals, coralline algae use the carbonates supplied by the buffering powder, so the higher level helps them besides keeping pH stable.

[themadride]

Also, note that corals, coralline algae use the carbonates supplied by the buffering powder, so the higher level helps them besides keeping pH stable.

 

Interesting! The only thing negative I've noticed in my tank is a lack of spreading coralline algae...so, maybe a little buffering powder is the way to go. I will give it a try....VERY SLOWLY at first and see if I can raise the pH without the KH going throught the roof.

[makonut]

It is possible that the lack of coralline is due to the corals out competing them for the available resources. In Borneman's book "Aquarium Corals" he lists a chart regarding nutrients/CUC grazing affecting growth of coralline algae, coral, and other algae:

 

Low Nutrient/High Grazing favor coral growth

Low Nutrient/Low Grazing favors filamentous algae

High Nutrient/High Grazing favors coralline algae

High Nutrient/Low Grazing favors macroalgae growth

[themadride]

Well, I think I might be a little confused again now. lol.

 

When you say nutrients...do you mean detritus? Or do you mean minerals, or trace elements, or plankton?

 

My understanding is that CUC generally need two things.

1) detritus to eat.

2) minerals/elements to build their shells/bodies.

 

I can't imagine that the minerals used in the production of their shells would be enough to compete with the corals. And if you mean detritus, then I thought almost all corals are hurt by waste...with the exception of clams maybe.

 

Im interested...but confused again.

Please explain what you mean by Nutrients and also how the CUC use them? Thanks

[makonut]

Well, I think I might be a little confused again now. lol.

 

When you say nutrients...do you mean detritus? Or do you mean minerals, or trace elements, or plankton?

 

My understanding is that CUC generally need two things.

1) detritus to eat.

2) minerals/elements to build their shells/bodies.

 

I can't imagine that the minerals used in the production of their shells would be enough to compete with the corals. And if you mean detritus, then I thought almost all corals are hurt by waste...with the exception of clams maybe.

 

Im interested...but confused again.

Please explain what you mean by Nutrients and also how the CUC use them? Thanks

 

Nutrient in the case I listed would be nitrates, phosphates, and any other dissolved organic compounds; high or excess amounts lead to algae blooms. The grazing would be the affect of the hermit crabs, snails, amphipods, copepods, and any other animals that feed on the algae; they also feed on uneaten food. Some may feed on detritus, depending on what you consider detritus to be.

 

Note that in your tank there is always competition for resources and it is our job to insure that we tilt the balance in favor of the animals we want to dominate; in my case corals, fish, and non-algae organisms (clams, tube worms, non-clam mollusks, and crustaceans). Some are better at obtaining certain materials then others, hence they dominate if there is an excess of that material. Note that most aquatic crustaceans obtain calcium from their environment versus diet. Conversely reducing a certain material may limit the growth of one organism and allow another to dominate; hence water changes and protein skimming help reduce sources of nitrate, phosphate, and other organic wastes and help prevent algae blooms.

 

There is an excellent website that has a list of articles that address a lot of these questions: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/index.php

 

Go to the top, underneath the title image, and to the right of the word "Staff", click on "Search". Type in what you are interested in, such as "alkalinity" and it will list every article the authors have written that either discusses it or mentions it in the article. Great resource!

[lakshwadeep]

Nutrients come from feeding the tank. Most CUC do not eat detritus, except for things like sea cucumbers, which are too large for nano tanks. Grazing means herbivorous snails eating algae, which grow depending on nutrient availability. Photosynthetic corals also have algae inside them, and they protect their algae from grazers. Coralline algae, likewise, has a calcified skeleton that limits grazing on them.

 

Magnesium is another thing that coralline algae need.