Couple of Return Questions....

[shrimphombre]

Okay guys I am drilling my tank and just had a couple of questions about the return. This sounds like a dumb question, but what keeps water from coming (falling?) into the sump from the return after the pump has lost power? I wanted to put a spray bar in the middle of the tank and was wondering whenever I turn off the pump, will water continue to fall back into the sump? (My current return goes up and over the side of the tank, and is above water so this is not a problem). Also, for the return pump in general I am having some trouble choosing a model. I am drilling a 40 Breeder and using gl#######s 700gph overflow box, so how much gph from a pump should I be looking for? Im thinking 500-700gph would work bc of the loss from head pressure, but I've heard others say thats too much. Would using a spray bar like I want enable me to have the extra flow, as it would spread the flow out? I currently have a mag7 and don't really like it (noise/heat), and am looking at quiet one or ocean runner. Any thoughts on these pumps? Sorry for all of the questions, but I am planning on drilling today, any input would be greatly appreciated!

[shrimphombre]

anyone?

[Noobeef]

anyone?

 

 

I'd be interested on information on the "Quiet One" pumps as well. They're dirt cheap at Petsmart and Petsmart.com right now.

 

As for your question, I'm not sure I follow. But I am slow.

[Urchinhead]

Okay guys I am drilling my tank and just had a couple of questions about the return. This sounds like a dumb question, but what keeps water from coming (falling?) into the sump from the return after the pump has lost power? I wanted to put a spray bar in the middle of the tank and was wondering whenever I turn off the pump, will water continue to fall back into the sump? (My current return goes up and over the side of the tank, and is above water so this is not a problem). Also, for the return pump in general I am having some trouble choosing a model. I am drilling a 40 Breeder and using gl#######s 700gph overflow box, so how much gph from a pump should I be looking for? Im thinking 500-700gph would work bc of the loss from head pressure, but I've heard others say thats too much. Would using a spray bar like I want enable me to have the extra flow, as it would spread the flow out? I currently have a mag7 and don't really like it (noise/heat), and am looking at quiet one or ocean runner. Any thoughts on these pumps? Sorry for all of the questions, but I am planning on drilling today, any input would be greatly appreciated!

 

If I remember correctly a 1" diameter hole will have a maximum of 600 gallons per hour of flow.

 

You can use the head loss calculator at Reef Central to figure out what your pump size will need to be.

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

 

Anything you add to the return line will cause head loss which means a drop in pressure of water coming out. For example I use Hydor Flow's on my returns because I don't like Laminar flow (think a big jet of water going only one direction) and they create a nice rolling flow through the tank. However I have to factor in up to a 30% loss of total gallons being pushed per hour because that is how much energy the Hydor uses to rotate itself. So in the end you will not be getting more flow from adding a spray bar you will only be redirecting and reducing the flow you already have from the pumps.

 

You can run the Mag externally to cut down on heat generation in the water and you can put padding down underneath it to cut back on the vibration noise.

 

I have had bad experiences with the Quiet Ones so I do not recommend or like them. They tended to not be very quiet and didn't handle buildup very well for me.

[Rocket]

1'' Diameter hole has 800 GPH potential, and that increases the deeper the hole is made in the tank, due to water pressure.

[shrimphombre]

Mags aren't meant to be plumbed in line, just submersed, they'll burn up if you run them externally. I have heard bad things about quiet ones as well but noticed that there is a sale on the "new generation" on drs. smith website, and was wondering if anybody had experience with this newer model. Am also still fishing for responses to the ocean runner. And can anybody answer my question about water falling back into the sump from the return line? thanks

 

and yes i realize i wont be getting "more" flow from the spray bar per se, but I dont like laminar flow either and the spray bar is one way to spread the flow out more evenly through out the tank.

[Urchinhead]

1'' Diameter hole has 800 GPH potential, and that increases the deeper the hole is made in the tank, due to water pressure.

 

Thank you.

[Urchinhead]

Mags aren't meant to be plumbed in line, just submersed, they'll burn up if you run them externally.

 

Eh? Says who? I run mine externally with no problems or burn up. The smaller ones are not but Mag 5+ run fine externally.

 

I have heard bad things about quiet ones as well but noticed that there is a sale on the "new generation" on drs. smith website, and was wondering if anybody had experience with this newer model. Am also still fishing for responses to the ocean runner. And can anybody answer my question about water falling back into the sump from the return line? thanks

 

I am sorry I can' speak for the new generation.

 

Ah missed that one and meant to address it. Sorry. Water will syphon back into your sump unless you put a check valve in place. The problem with check valves though is that they will eventually fail catastrophically and in general over time. Better to have one than not but also adjust your return line to a height that will allow only as much water as your sump can handle or less to overflow back into the tank.

 

and yes i realize i wont be getting "more" flow from the spray bar per se, but I dont like laminar flow either and the spray bar is one way to spread the flow out more evenly through out the tank.

 

Right. The way your post read it sounded like you might not. Sorry. Yes the spray bar will create a more diverse and diffuse laminar flow in the tank. You could also break out your return line into two and put the Hydor's on them as an alternative.

[shrimphombre]

anyone else? i could really use some input from everyone....

[reefone]

ive never used the quietone pumps but ive used the oceanrunner and couldnt be happier. they r real quiet,low power use and hardly add any heat to the tank.

 

as for the bach flow when power goes out u will need to design the sump to handle any back flow. u will also need a syphen break hole drilled just under the water line in the return plumbing. so when the power goes out the water will back flow and stop when it sucks air in from the syphen break hole.

 

this link will explain anything u will want to know http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

[shrimphombre]

I realize a siphon break is the easiest way to prevent the return pump from siphoning my tank water into my sump, but how would this work if it is a drilled return in the middle of the tank? A siphon break would be in the same place as the return holes any way, so it would still drain half of my tank water into the sump. I also realize a check valve is a possibility but as urchin said they will eventually fail, causing a huuge head ache. Is there any other way to prevent the siphon? Is there a pump that automatically closes when turned off? What about creating a T before the plumbing goes into the tank, allowing air to enter the plumbing? Or would that cause lots of bubbles? Anybody have any ideas?

[reefone]

ok i understand now. ur going to have the spray bar in the middle of the tank. u could try the t or u can route the return plumbing tword the top then back down. but i wouldnt use a check valve unless u like to clean thing alot.

 

another thought is drill the return at the top then run ur plumbing down to the middle or bottom. and the break hole just under the water. u could alway paint the pipe where u see it or cover it with rock or purple primer,ect.

[shrimphombre]

hmm okay, anyone else?

[Matty1124]

i have my spray bar at the top and it sprays down... i dont think its very smart to drill a return low in the tank just for the reasons you have found... most of the time when you see a return low in a tank its because its plummed to a CL

[shrimphombre]

okay fair enough, I think what I am going to do is plumb the spray bar so that it is up high but goes downward, and have the holes pointing diagonally into the tank. That way, I can have a siphon break at the top of the plumbing and still get a good spread of flow. Any negatives to this idea?

[Matty1124]

no.... are you are going to have other flow sources right? i have a spray bar and 2 Koralia1s in my 29g... spray bars are good at moving water around but dont create much current

 

EDIT: it depends on how many holes you have on it and how big those holes are... i should have done fewer then i did over the length of an 8 inch pipe then i did

[shrimphombre]

Yea the spray bar will just be a way to get water from my sump to the main tank. I didn't feel like dealing with the hastle of a scwd, 3 extra holes, pump, plumbing etc. for a closed loop so i'll have koralias too, right now I have a 1 and a 3, I may downgrade to a 2, the 3 is pretty intense.