Using really weak/diluted kalkwasser for ATO?

[eyou]

So thanks to my incredible do it as i go planning, i have space under my tank for a 5 gallon bucket. im trying to combine ATO with calcium dosing so i dont' have to worry about both. I was gonna rig up some float switches to a powerhead which will pump in the water.

 

I know youre only supposed to drip kalk to avoid pH fluctuation, and ive done that before but its a pain and the lines keep clogging etc.

 

so i was wondering could i make very weak kalkwasser and just use a pump to pump in this mixture? It would probably pump in 1/2-1gallon at a time, once hte float switch is activated. i hear 2tsp / gallon is the limit so maybe like .25 tsp/gallon would be good?

[bdare]

I don't think it would work. You'd still boost your Ph and you wouldn't be suppying enough Ca / Alk supplement to keep up with your needs.

[tinyreef]

not really a such thing as a constant weak/diluted kalkwasser mixture, unless you constantly mix it and then you're adding some CaOH particulates too.

 

the kalk always heads to the top of the water column just like cream does in non-homogenized milk. that's why kalk reactors feed output off the top of the reactor chamber, basically pure limewater at the top (pH 12+).

 

to have it 'diluted' with water, you'd have to be churning it all the time. you'll likely have some lime/kalk particulates mixed in then (milky).

 

better to leave the ato spot for either fw only or figure an ato that only adds the kalk consistently slow, i.e. drip or very low flow (e.g. perialstaltic pumps). trouble is that most such units can't resist the very caustic nature of the kalk though (it's acid opposite but just as damaging). an Azoo air lifter is nice but i'm not sure how/if the inside of the unit can handle pure kalk. hth

[claygirl13]

Maybe try a little bit more kalk and use an aqualift pump for slower dosing. It would be pumped into the sump right? I have mine on a timer (I wouldn't recommend but I'm cheap and bad at diy) instead of float switch. It takes about 10 minutes to add 1/4 gallon the way mine is set up. Its been running for 4 months with no clogging issues (I have a prefilter on it.)

[bdare]

Tiny,

 

You are normally a pretty smart dude, but you've really lost me with this reply...

 

not really a such thing as a constant weak/diluted kalkwasser mixture, unless you constantly mix it and then you're adding some CaOH particulates too.

?? If you constantly mix Kak in an unseald container it will lose potency because it's mixed with CO2.

 

the kalk always heads to the top of the water column just like cream does in non-homogenized milk. that's why kalk reactors feed output off the top of the reactor chamber, basically pure limewater at the top (pH 12+).

The reason Kalk reactors pull water from the top is to keep the sediment added to the tank to a minimum. This is the first place that clears up after the stirrer stirs the mixture.

 

to have it 'diluted' with water, you'd have to be churning it all the time. you'll likely have some lime/kalk particulates mixed in then (milky).

To dilute it you can just mix in less that 2 tsp. Once it's mixed it's mixed. No reason to stir it.

 

better to leave the ato spot for either fw only or figure an ato that only adds the kalk consistently slow, i.e. drip or very low flow (e.g. perialstaltic pumps). trouble is that most such units can't resist the very caustic nature of the kalk though (it's acid opposite but just as damaging). an Azoo air lifter is nice but i'm not sure how/if the inside of the unit can handle pure kalk. hth

I do agree with this, but not for the reasons you've listed

[eyou]

bdare you are using 2 part solution right? i was looking i saw a lot of pretty decent sized, and sps packed tanks using 2 part dosing. isnt that expensive? why not just drip kalk?

 

last time i tried making a drip, i used airline through a 5 gallon bucket. at the end was those airline valves and after a few days the end would just become clogged with precipitate or whatever and i would have to keep readjusting the amount it was dripping cause of this. it was really a big pain in the ass and im trying to avoid that.

 

is there a more reliable way that doest need so much tweaking?

[bdare]

bdare you are using 2 part solution right? i was looking i saw a lot of pretty decent sized, and sps packed tanks using 2 part dosing. isnt that expensive? why not just drip kalk?

 

last time i tried making a drip, i used airline through a 5 gallon bucket. at the end was those airline valves and after a few days the end would just become clogged with precipitate or whatever and i would have to keep readjusting the amount it was dripping cause of this. it was really a big pain in the ass and im trying to avoid that.

 

is there a more reliable way that doest need so much tweaking?

Kalk alone isn't enough to keep up with the demand in my tank. 2 Part is dirt cheap if you add it manually and buy it in bulk from a place like bulkreefsupply.com

 

I bought dosing pumps so my costs are a bit higher, but these are NOT required, but MUCH easier!

[tinyreef]

?? If you constantly mix Kak in an unseald container it will lose potency because it's mixed with CO2.

 

The reason Kalk reactors pull water from the top is to keep the sediment added to the tank to a minimum. This is the first place that clears up after the stirrer stirs the mixture.

 

To dilute it you can just mix in less that 2 tsp. Once it's mixed it's mixed. No reason to stir it.

agreed on the ambient CO2 combining with the limewater (forms a CaCO3 'skin'). but i was assuming he was going to mix it in a sealed reactor or semi-closed container with some kind of mixer to keep everything suspended so he could draw top-off from the bottom as he is trying to plan for an ato setup. so it was the aspect of him pulling it from the bottom like most ato setups that i was addressing my comments.

 

you do have wait in-between mixes/stirrings to let the kalk rise to the top where kalk reactors draw away the pure limewater, not particularly for the sediment to settle afaik. CaO/CaOH isn't very soluable in water so it requires significant agitation/stirring. but i agree the sediment should be allowed to settle. so once the limewater is made there's a significant layer of water in-between the lime and limewater. drawing top-off from the "middle" doesn't yield as much limewater as from the very top.

 

but the basis of his original post was that he wanted diluted kalk as a constant source somehow. that really can't be done in a constant fashion. except that mixed kalk, where the mixture is still in suspension, is actually more dilute than mixed-decanted/clear kalk that is at the top and very reactive with CO2. but i also agree that the problem is the suspended/undissolved lime.

 

sorry, i probably didn't write it out very well but i was really only centering on the diluted or weakened kalk aspect of his question. i can see where my reply looks/reads wacky though. the concept of weak or truly diluted kalkwasser though is not really applicable imo.

[fellbeast]

I just drip a little kalk with a 32 oz. spraybottle. I put 32 oz. of RO/DI ad 1/4 tsp. of kalk. Cap.. lightly swirl solution for 10 secs. Let it sit for 2 hours. Put in an air line tube 1 in from the bottom, so sediment doesn't go into tank. I have a valve at the end of the tube draining into my tank. Put my hand around the bottle kneck, blow air into it, and siphon starts. I let it drip 1-2 drops per second. Drips over 2-3 hrs I think. I only drip 16-24 oz. of it. The rest is dispensed. My alk is 11 kh, Ph 8.2 Ca. 450.. lil high.

[eyou]

agreed on the ambient CO2 combining with the limewater (forms a CaCO3 'skin'). but i was assuming he was going to mix it in a sealed reactor or semi-closed container with some kind of mixer to keep everything suspended so he could draw top-off from the bottom as he is trying to plan for an ato setup. so it was the aspect of him pulling it from the bottom like most ato setups that i was addressing my comments.

 

you do have wait in-between mixes/stirrings to let the kalk rise to the top where kalk reactors draw away the pure limewater, not particularly for the sediment to settle afaik. CaO/CaOH isn't very soluable in water so it requires significant agitation/stirring. but i agree the sediment should be allowed to settle. so once the limewater is made there's a significant layer of water in-between the lime and limewater. drawing top-off from the "middle" doesn't yield as much limewater as from the very top.

 

but the basis of his original post was that he wanted diluted kalk as a constant source somehow. that really can't be done in a constant fashion. except that mixed kalk, where the mixture is still in suspension, is actually more dilute than mixed-decanted/clear kalk that is at the top and very reactive with CO2. but i also agree that the problem is the suspended/undissolved lime.

 

sorry, i probably didn't write it out very well but i was really only centering on the diluted or weakened kalk aspect of his question. i can see where my reply looks/reads wacky though. the concept of weak or truly diluted kalkwasser though is not really applicable imo.

 

i thought when you made kalk you decanted everything but the sediment on the bottom anyways (which includes the "middle water boundary" i never knew about that i just thought you were avoiding the sediment on the bottom)? Are you only supposed to decant the top half? Also that skin, is there anything you do about that? i just would take the liquid and not suck that top part off and also leave the sediment on the bottom

 

Also, if I just had used 1/8 tsp for a gallon, and then decanted the "concentrated" kalk off the top, why would the mixture have to be kept in suspension? Wouldn't that top off water at least have a little calcium? Right now i'm not dosing anything so wouldn't it be better than nothing at all?

 

I only have a few sps frags and lps nothing huge so i dont think theyre suckingtoo much calcium out, but i figured a little wouldn't hurt. i want a clam too so i figured its better to add a little, but not if it would throw the pH and off and kill everything.

[dtfleming]

I dose 2-part and Kalk. I mix 2 tsp of kalk to my 5gal ATO bucket. the kalk helps to maintain the lvls, but thats it. I still dose daily with 2-part.

[eyou]

and you dont drip the ATO in right its on a float switch? do you decant or just add 2 and use that?

[eyou]

I always thought the 2 part solution was the more expensive, convenient way to add calcium, but it seems i'm wrong. i thought dosing kalk was a "better" way than the 2 part. can someone tell me the differences between using the two methods?

[fellbeast]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but frm what i read 2 part is a lil safer, you have to be careful with Kalk because it's PH is about 12, and in a nano, it's easy to overdose.

[davidncbrown]

nice thing about kalk is that it also precipitates phosphates. I've never had a problem with kalk clogging. I do about 2tsp to 1 gal and give it a day to rest. I pour off as much as I can without disturbing the sediment and then pour through a coffee filter to filter any loose sediment out. Works great for my nano and I dose about a gallon every two weeks between water changes.

[HankB]

you do have wait in-between mixes/stirrings to let the kalk rise to the top where kalk reactors draw away the pure limewater, not particularly for the sediment to settle afaik.

I'm with bdare on this one. Once the kalk dissolves, it will be distributed uniformly through the solution. The only way something can rise to the top is to not dissolve. Cream, for example, rises to the top because it is undissolved butter fat. The only reason to draw from the top is to avoid the undissolved solids at the bottom.

 

I'm curious about this too. Tunze makes a kalk reactor to go with their ATO so I wonder why I couldn't just make a dilute kalk solution to use for makeup. Our ATO reservoir is covered but not sealed. At some point if water changes are not sufficient to keep up with calcium demands, it seems to me that this might be enough.

 

thanks,

hank

[Mudfish]

I changed from 2-part to kalk on my 20-gallon 7 weeks ago. I use it in my ATO, and it's been working great. I just fill the 4-gallon reservoir with RO/DI, stir in three tablespoons of kalk powder (from Bulk Reef Supply, of course!), let it set two hours, and restart the ATO.

 

The ATO is powered with an Aqualifter, and I have the pickup tube threaded into a piece of larger tubing that keeps it about a half inch off the bottom of the reservoir. Every two or three refills I take the whole apparatus and rinse it out, and run some vinegar through the ATO system.

 

It's an average mixed reef, lots of LPS, a few SPS. This morning's readings were alk = 9, Ca = 420.

[bdare]

Try these articles on for size. Could help with some of the issues you're facing:

 

How to Select a Calcium and Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2003/chem.htm

 

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

 

What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

 

The Degradation of Limewater (Kalkwasser) in Air

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-...ature/index.htm

[dtfleming]

Biggest thing you gotta remember is how much cal/alk is your tank using. Figure that out first and then figure whether to dose kalk or 2-part. The kalk for me helps to MAINTAIN the cal/alk lvls it doesnt increase them for me. Yes 2-part is safer to dose as you can overdose kalk and crash your tank. Kalk has a ph of 12 so keep that in mind.

 

In my 26 gal I have 20 diff sps corals so my tank uses alot of cal/alk up in a day.

[tinyreef]

I'm with bdare on this one. Once the kalk dissolves, it will be distributed uniformly through the solution. The only way something can rise to the top is to not dissolve. Cream, for example, rises to the top because it is undissolved butter fat. The only reason to draw from the top is to avoid the undissolved solids at the bottom.

hmm, perhaps you're right. i've always been taught that the kalk concentration is greater towards the top because the lime doesn't dissolve very well (like the cream analogy).

 

but the thing i was really concentrating on was eyou was trying to do the diluted aspect. reading what rhf wrote i think my thought approach is wrong, the slurry would be a greater concentration rather than slightly lower. my thought was that it's not decanted yet so i tought it would be a lower concentration (portion not yet dissolved). my wiewpoint looks incorrect from the "slurry" approach though. sorry.

 

so you can't do a diluted approach no matter what, i guess.

[bdare]

hmm, perhaps you're right. i've always been taught that the kalk concentration is greater towards the top because the lime doesn't dissolve very well (like the cream analogy).

 

but the thing i was really concentrating on was eyou was trying to do the diluted aspect. reading what rhf wrote i think my thought approach is wrong, the slurry would be a greater concentration rather than slightly lower. my thought was that it's not decanted yet so i tought it would be a lower concentration (portion not yet dissolved). my wiewpoint looks incorrect from the "slurry" approach though. sorry.

 

so you can't do a diluted approach no matter what, i guess.

 

You can dose diluted limewater if you don't need fully concentrated to keep up with Ca and Alk demands. The only reason I stated it wouldn't be a good idea with the setup the OP described is because he'd still be adding top off water with a Ph of 12 to his tank with a powerhead. IMO this would be adding it too quickly and would still cause a large localized Ph spike resulting in precipitation.

 

When I first started my tank I was dosing lime with my ATO, but I used an aqualifter pump. I only added 1 tsp / 5 gallons of water to start and SLOWLY increased the amount to make sure I didn't overdose my tank. This approach worked well for me and I would reccomend it for others.

 

Currently I'm thinking about adding limewater to my tank again to help precipitate PO4 and help with a little Ph boost. This time however I'll be adding another pump to my LMIII and dosing the limewater from a seperate resivoir.

 

Ben

[eyou]

i think it sounds like the aqualifter isnt bad then. I was staying away from it because it was so cheap, so i wasnt sure if it was worth the money. Can you change the output from 3g/hr? . sounds like it wont be bad with an aqualifter and a floatvalve with some unsaturated kalk. now to get a ca and alk test kit....

[bdare]

The pump doesn't have anything that let's you adjust the output, but you can CERTAINLY put an airline valve on the tubing to slow down the flow if necessary. The output of the pump is pretty slow however so slowing down the flow would only really be necessary on smaller tanks.

[HecticDialectics]

you do have wait in-between mixes/stirrings to let the kalk rise to the top where kalk reactors draw away the pure limewater, not particularly for the sediment to settle afaik. CaO/CaOH isn't very soluable in water so it requires significant agitation/stirring. but i agree the sediment should be allowed to settle. so once the limewater is made there's a significant layer of water in-between the lime and limewater. drawing top-off from the "middle" doesn't yield as much limewater as from the very top

 

 

Never heard that before... I can't possibly imagine how some kalk would mix with some parts of water better than other parts of the same water. Leaving the kalkwasser to sit was just so that the sediment could settle out.

[reefer123]

tagging along cause i'm gonna start kalk dosing also. oh and is it nesseccary to dose like magnesium or something else to get Ca levels up to like 400-450? thanks. this is a dece thread