Refugium and Surge To Tank Ratio?

[Neo]

Hi I'm quite new to this hobby and are in the

process of designing a new nano, about 10g

tank space.  Having difficulty finding information

on the volume ratio's of Refugium:Tank and

Surge:Tank.  On the moment, thinking of :

 

             Surge: Tank     of    1:10

                            and

             Refugium:Tank   of   1:3

 

Will this be OK, any advise?

 

Thanks,

Neo

 

PS. Surge type - reverse carlson surge device

[flaunt]

i have a 10g with a borneman-style surge device and a refugium attached to the surge tank.  the surge container holds three gallons but reaches a peak of about 2g before surging.  1g always stays in the surge tank.  the refugium is just a 1g clear rubbermaid container with 5" aragamax and a few pieces of live rock.  the water level in the refugium fluctuates about 1.5" during the surge.  there are some pictures and posts elsewhere in this forum about it.

[Jefe12234]

Hey Neo,

 

I'm really interested in the RCSD idea. I might use one on my next tank. I've seen them made two ways. Sometimes they're placed inside the tank and anchored in place somehow. Other times they're made out of large diameter PVC and connected to the outside of the tank via bulkheads. I'm thinking of using the first method since I don't want to drill my tank and PVC doesn't give you much volume. How are you going to implement yours? I'd be interested in hearing.

 

-Chris

[Neo]

Hi, I have what is commonly known as a 2 foot tank (also glass).

 

I'm going to use flat extruded plastic (1/3rd the price of

acryl) to create a compartment at the back of the tank.

In tank surge...  Will try to give you some pictures soon.

 

Rgds,

Neo

[Neo]

Hi,

 

had some spare time and did a quick cad design,

 

http://www.geocities.com/neo_nanoreef/

 

Tell me what you think...

Any improvements?

 

Rgds,

Neo

[Jefe12234]

That looks really nice. It should be an excellent setup when you're done. I have a couple questions for you, but let me make sure I have your setup figured out first.

 

It looks like your refugium flows into one corner, along the back, into the last corner, and then back to the tank. Then your RCSD is in the center flowing through the gap near the bottom. Assuming that's correct, here's my questions.

 

Are you going to have a powerhead moving water through the refugium? If so, why do you have slots on both corners and a divider between the back passage and the right corner? I could see using one slotted area or one divider to return water, but I don't see the purpose of all of them together. Also, do you think the RCSD will create a lot of pressure? I would make sure the plastic is thick enough and well sealed at the joints.

 

-Chris

[Neo]

Hi,

 

in the right corner, I will be running a aqauel internal filter (mechanical and biological filtration and aeriation) which will pump into the refugium.  And maybe an airlift skimmer, which outlet will also go to refugium.

 

Chris, the idea behind the double overflow is the following, (tell me what you think...) is so that alge and small animals, other possible food, thats created in refugium can flow into main tank for food for fishes,  etc. and still be alive when it gets there, not being crushed by a powerhead.  Overflow into the filter box (right back corner) is so that if a skimmer is used the scum on the surface of the main tank's water can be collected by skimmer and filter. Obviously to be able to recreate a in- and outflow, the seperation is used between refugium and filter box.

 

Regarding the RCSD, quite a big opening is used to reduce resistance on waterflow during surge.  I think it will create quite a pressure, havent worked it out yet, but will soon.  What type of sealent must I use for the plasic, aquarium silicon, will that work?  .or must it be something what "weld" the plastic pieces into each other?  Used the design idea for RCSD from http://216.168.47.67/cis-fishnet/seascope/00SS1705.htm

 

If waterflow in main tank is too low I will use a powerhead to pump water from and back to main tank but the powerhead itself will prolly then be located in the refugium.  Heater will also be located in refugium.

 

Let me know what you think,

rgds,

Neo

 

PS. Plastic I'm going to use is extruded black 3mm plastic, I've got a offcut piece  from a local plastic dealer.

 

(Edited by Neo at 4:57 pm on April 11, 2002)

[Jefe12234]

Ok, so I take it that your filter box pushes water into the refugium, which flows into your main tank through the left overflow, which then flows back into the filter box through the right overflow. The thing that threw me off is that the divider between the refugium and filter box looks short in your drawing (as if water is supposed to flow over it). Is that the case, or does it just look that way in the drawings? Otherwise, it sounds like an excellent design. Tank, sump, refugium, and surge all in one!

 

Wait, I just thought of one problem. When your RCSD fires, the water level is going to suddenly drop. If the filter box pumps all the water out of it's space before the RCSD returns enough water, then the filter pump might run dry and burn out.

 

As for building the RCSD, I would consider using 1/4" plastic or acrylic. 3mm is about 1/8". Plastic that thin will not provide a very wide bond area at the seams and could break under pressure. To bond plastic to glass you should use silicon. But to bond plastic to plastic (esp for the surge box), you should use a plastic solvent like weld-on. This will make a chemical bond that actually melts the pieces together. It's much stronger than silicon, but only works on plastic.

 

In that article where you got your design, Kevin talks about his RCSD exploding from the pressure. I'd hate to see that happen to you. BTW, have you seen his homepage?

 

http://www.seaplace.org/kevinc/

 

He has a video and pics of his tank running with airlifts and an RCSD. It's a huge setup.

 

Lemme know if I've misunderstood your plans.

 

-Chris

[Neo]

In a thread on StuGotz's forum he made some comments regarding a question of mine about tank size.  After reading his comments I realise (being a student) that I will not be able to affort the modification for a reef tank, live rock and live sand for my 2 foot tank.  So that will stay a tropical for now...   I did another design with similiar idea for a smaller tank that will be a corner tank.  It will also have the advantage that  it will fit on my desk. Put the updated designs on the webpage.

 

Chris, you understand my design now.  Beleive me I've done it over so many times because of all sorts of problems, I lost count  But I think its OK now...  (If I kept them, it would have been a nice tutorial in nano-reef design )

 

>The thing that threw me off is that the divider >between the refugium and filter box looks short in >your drawing (as if water is supposed to flow over it). >Is that the case, or does it just look that way in the >drawings?

 

Yes its suppose to be a bit shorter, for the senario where the refugium overflow gets blocked, so that the tank will not flood, but the flow will reverse back to the filterbox till I notice and can fix it.

 

>Wait, I just thought of one problem. When your RCSD >fires, the water level is going to suddenly drop. If the >filter box pumps all the water out of it's space before >the RCSD returns enough water, then the filter pump >might run dry and burn out.

 

Yes, I thought about this one too.  The thing here is, the overflow must be designed low (long) enough so that there is still overflow after the surge.   Haven't done the calculation yet, but guess that the current design will be OK.  But still have to work it out to make sure.

 

Thanks for that info about the sealing and welding.  Helps a lot, cause I haven't work with plastic before.  I am also in the process of re-thinking my 3mm plastic idea and maybe going to try and get 5mm/6mm somewhere. (Well ...cheap )

 

Just an idea, what you think of the idea I (or someone else) start a webpage where people can upload/link their DIY tank designs?   Well if time allows it in the future...  Something like that would have helped me alot when I started working on my design.

 

Rgds,

Neo

 

PS. Webpage with design is updated for new design.

 

(Edited by Neo at 12:11 am on April 12, 2002)

[Jefe12234]

Sounds good. Your design looks like it fits better in a corner tank anyways. But I wouldn't necessarily let price keep you from doing the 2 foot tank. You can use dry sand and just get a couple pounds of live sand to seed the dry stuff. And you don't have to fill the tank with rock. You can just get a few pieces for now and add more later if you like. I did my 20 gallon like that because I didn't have money to pour into it either.

 

Anyways, whichever tank you go with, it should be a cool project. The only thing I would do is try to minimize the number of separate pieces and joints when working with acrylic. The filter box on the right side of your new design looks like it has a couple of unnecessay corners. I know you're trying to maintain correct volumes and dimensions, but it will be stronger and easier to construct if you have fewer joints.

 

Here's a quick drawing I did to show you a simpler design. I don't know if it will work for your purposes, but maybe it will give you an idea. It sounds like you've thought it out very well, though.

 

 

And one thing to keep in mind when cementing plastic/acrylic together is to make sure everything fits exactly. The cement only works if the pieces are touching. Gaps are bad. Make your cuts straight and be sure the edge is flat. For the 45 degree joints either cut or sand the edge at a 45 degree angle so that they fit together well.

 

Good luck with it. I really like your design (as you can tell by my numerous posts). Let me know if you have any other questions about it.

 

Oh, as for the webpage thing, I think it could be a good idea. I don't see too many people designing tanks like this, but a lot of people design parts of their tanks, or make modifications to certain parts. A webpage to upload drawings and ideas may be helpful.

 

I'm done, I promise.

 

-Chris

[Neo]

I think I'm going to go for the small one for now, but knowing myself, as soon as finances allow it the 2 foot tropical will be gone...

 

Thanks for that design of yours.  My problem was that I have already a filter and have to fit it in.  Now in yours it will also fit but the opening for the surge will be much smaller, well if you want is symetrical ( very bad thing about me, too pefectionistic and worrying about detail, like where the pipes and wire go, equipment sit ) But yes yours is a much better design.  How about in my case give the surge a acrylic floor as well to make it stronger? Will there anything negative be about doing that?  Except for the extra work to make it...

 

>> I'm done, I promise.

 

dont worry, more brains is always more powerfull than one.  Being in an engineering field I can tell you that...

 

What do one use to cut acrylic diy way, same tool as for glass?

 

Do you have pictures of your tanks?

 

Regards,

Neo

[Jefe12234]

Actually the newest addition of Reef Keeping magazine has an article on working with acrylic.

 

http://reefkeeping.com/

 

Here's some more links on working with acrylic.

 

http://www.ozreef.org/diy/index.html#ACRYLIC

 

I would write a little more, but I gotta go. Good luck with it.

 

-Chris

[Neo]

http://www.ffexpress.com/drygoods/advance_...qua/desktop.htm

 

another interesting design to look at.  Like the way

they handle air above the aquarium water.  One would actually be able to install a blower fan on the one side and let air exit the other side, well have to top up evaporation losses often then but will have a kind of chiller effect. adding another component to our little design

 

Well the evaporative losses topup can also be semi-automated, with a small float switch and a little reservoir in the canopy.

 

rgds,

Neo

[Dazureus]

The design I implemented is simliar to the FFexpress one, but instead of bioballs, I have a sand bed chamber and I added a reverse carlson surge.  My parents are borrowing my digital camera, but here are the design renders and composite of it's final resting place:

 

 

counter current skimmer:

 

Scale composite:

 

I've made a canopy to enclose the CSL 32 W light and cover most of the rear filtration and surge area.  The surge output sprays a little and makes some noise.  I have yet to find a way to silence it, but the spray can be redirected down.

[Neo]

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~cap/raid/topoff/s...phon/index.html

 

and how about this one for a fresh water topoff system, no valve, etc. , etc.   really kewl idea, let gravity do the work, as in the case of the RCSD.

[Neo]

Dazureus, very nice design. Nice graphics to.

 

About your question for quieting the surge, have a look at this info, havent had time to think it through but seams like it might be an idea, and a solution to a similiar problem.

 

http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/overflow-quiet.html

 

How good is your surge with the "grid" in front of the opening? Doesn't it create a lot of resistance?

 

Looks real nice, wish mine was done already....

Rgds,

Neo

[Dazureus]

I have a top off similar to that in my 50 gal.  I can't implement it in my tank since the only area in which the water level will fall is the pump chamber, but that water level fluctuates with the surge.  I'll just have to do it by hand or pump.  I've seen smaller designs for a gravity fed top off for a nano using some clear 4" acrylic tubing and common PVC plumbing pieces for the container.  The grid for the surge isn't the limiting factor in my case.  I have five 0.25" by 1.5" slots for the water intake (1.875 square inches) and my air purge tube is .5" cpvc for 0.196 inches square output.  Disregarding frictional losses since the water is only traveling through o.125" acrylic and the air is passing thorough a much longer tube, pushing air out that is the limit to my surge speed.  For larger tank implementations, I would use the largest air purge tube possible and valve it for surge speed control.  Of course it wouldn't help to go larger than the water intake.

[Neo]

I also like the design of your skimmer, very innovative.  And it's also using gravity for water flow

 

Rgds,

Neo