Chronicles Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Okay I need some serious help, I'm trying and buying so much stuff every day it makes me wonder if I should even have a tank. Setup: 10gal glass tank Eclipse 1 filter/light system w/ biowheel 18" 15w Full Spectrum tube I have 3.5-4" sand bed NO live rock Stock: 1 common clown 2 damsels 1 anemone crab 1 chocolate chip starfish Problem: I've had my tank about a month now, I started cycling it with a damsel and then a week or so later added the 2nd one, and just added my clown. My SeaChem ammonia alert thing says alert which means .05 mg/L it was at Alarm yesterday and today which means .20 mg/L. I took my water in today and had it tested and he found high ammonia and nitrites as well as nitrates. My test kit shows between 2-5 nitrites. pH is 8.3, ALK is fine, SG is fine at about 1.023. My ammonias have been up for about 2 weeks and just won't fall down. I read about everyones cycles and how everything just falls back to 0, well mine doesn't. I've been doing everything inclduing: adding biozyme (bacteria) using ammo lock to lock up the ammonia been feeding lighter I got a pack of Purigen (heard carbon was bad) Today I got Prime (detoxifies ammonia and nitrite, so it says) Got Phos-zorb since I've had brown algae now. I've been told and read many things and most conflict. This is a fish only and I was told carbon was bad and so is the mechanical filter aspect of it. Right now all I'm running is the Purigen, phos-zorb, and a cut piece of filter floss before it goes to the bio wheel. What am I doing wrong? Seriously because I've been going out about every day and buying $20-$40 in chemicals and stuff that doesn't seem to work. Only today when I did a water change and added the Seachem Prime did the ammonia alert thing come down from Alert to alarm. My fish seem alright and eat just fine. My starfish has shrunk, and it can't even turn itself over now (put it upside down to check if it was alive ). I know there isn't any super chemical to make it all better but what can I do to help? I don't want any fish to die. I buy distilled water and premix my own salt. Sorry for the long post but someone please help, I'm about to give up. Link to comment
chufa Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 10 gallon and those 3 fish plus inverts is too much, especially without live rock! Either scale up on the tank, scale down on the livestock, or make it a FOWLR (add 10-20 lbs live rock). Link to comment
seabass Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Stop putting in livestock and stop adding chemicals. Use RO/DI water and do a big water change (30%). The ammonia conditioners will cause most test kits to give you inaccurate readings. Carbon is fine (I use SeaGel which is a mix of carbon and PhosGuard). Personally I’d ditch the BioWheel and put in about 15 lbs of cured live rock instead, but without the LR, you’ll need the BioWheel. I’d continue 15% water changes every few days until your levels stabilize. Can you take your Damsels back? Link to comment
Chronicles Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 3 little fish are too much? I've posted the same thing at Reef Aquarium Guide and they said it takes much longer to cycle w/o LR and I added my fish too soon. The LFS that has live rock near me wants $10.99 a pound!! I don't think so. Either the starfish is sleeping wierd or it's on the way out. :*( I can get a 20gal high for $49 but then I have to start this crap all over again. Would Cycle or A.C.T. be better then biozyme? Thanks Link to comment
jdsabin1 Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 You need to do water changes with RO/DI very frequently right now to get those levels to come down. Don't overfeed either. I used Fritz's Turbo-Start (I think that's the name of it) that is kept in a refrigerator (live bacteria) that I added to help cycle way back when. I am not familiar with the other products that do something similar so not much help there. Good luck! Link to comment
Chronicles Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 I am now being told 2 damsels and 1 clown is too much for a 10gal fish only w/ no LR...this true? :*( Link to comment
seabass Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Are you feeding your Chocolate Chip filter feeder foods? They also like to eat algae and could use a place to hide. I'd at least put in some dead rock for your Chocolate Chip and your fish (bacteria, algae, and critters will eventually make this LR which will help your biological filtration). Your tank's high Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate levels are not helping the poor guy. There is no true rule as to how many fish you can keep, but you might be able to keep about one inch of fish per every two gallons (add together the size your fish will be when they are full grown). Obviously there are other factors that you should consider, like how territorial your fish are, how much bacteria your biological filter can support, are your fish compatible with each other... IMO (to answer your question), during a cycle, three small fish is too many. You need to go slow and have patience. Whenever you detect Ammonia, you are not ready to add anything else; wait until Ammonia reads zero before considering another addition to your tank. After your levels are good, (using RO/DI water) perform weekly 15% partial water changes to keep your Nitrates in check and to add back depleted elements. Good luck. Link to comment
cmoreash Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Look in the phone book for more stores, even a bit of cured rock would help, usually you can talk store prices down anyways, if you are desperate. Like the other people said, water changes will help! Hope everything does ok Link to comment
chufa Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Seabass, sorry to disagree, but every experienced saltwater aquarist can tell you the inch of fish rule is BS. And even so, with saltwater it would be more like an inch of fish per 5 gallons, not 2 gallons. Saltwater has a much lower oxygen-carrying capacity than freshwater. I have 3 fish in a 12 gallons, and I know I am pushing it. But my tank has live rock and is fully established. I added my fish one at a time over the course of months. Link to comment
Chronicles Posted July 19, 2003 Author Share Posted July 19, 2003 Today I got a 15gal tall and 10lbs of live sand that says it cycles instantly and you can add fish instantly. I'm moving 6gal of water over in the new tank from the old and mixing up 9gal fresh, thus doing a 60% water change. I'll be adding the live sand and setting it up while mixing it with 8lbs of the sand from my existing tank which will sead it to 18lbs of live sand. I will be moving the fish over tomorrow sometime when everything is 0 and calmed down. Thanks for your help. Link to comment
lizbeth Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Man what a mess. Too much too fast. As already suggested do some water changes and if you can return at least one fish. Your tank can not handle the bioload you have thrown at it. Stop throwing money in the form of chemicals at it, they won't help. I personally would not add live rock to that tank unless someone with an established tank will sell you some. I would not trust a LFS when it says it's rock is cycled. That would completely crash your tank if there was any rock die off and even a small cycle. your tank could not handle. Where are you located? Maybe someone here would have a suggestion about getting you some rock. Link to comment
seabass Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Chufa, I don’t disagree with you, but I know that some of us with small tanks are pushing one inch per two gallons (with just one fish). For example, I have a False Perc in my 7-gallon tank. One inch per 5 gallons sounds much better; I just wish I had the space. Yeah, those guidelines don’t mean much; they are just approximations to make sure that beginners like me don’t go crazy adding fish. When I bought my Clownfish, I made sure that it was small (one inch per seven gallons). Then as it gets larger, I will be pushing one inch per two gallons, but this will happen slowly. The point that I was trying to make was that I thought Chronicles was overstocked. I always thought that these fish size limits had more to do with water quality than Oxygen. ??? Maybe I should get an Oxygen test kit to make sure that I’m OK. I know that Oxygen concentrations also depend a lot on temperature, circulation, evaporation, and algae. Link to comment
NanoBound Posted July 19, 2003 Share Posted July 19, 2003 Sounds like it to me that you pushed the bio-load way to fast! I've had my tank about a month now, I started cycling it with a damsel and then a week or so later added the 2nd one, and just added my clown. Am I understanding you correctly, you added 3 fish in the first month? If so, geeeeez.....when did you ever have time to begin a cycle...not to mention..3 different bio- boost! Is there any way your lfs will let you keep your fish in one of there holding tanks until you can get a full cycle? And then slowly introduce them back to the bigger (cycled)tank? Just a thought. Link to comment
chufa Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 yeah, seabass, those "rules" are very gray. Many people here have one small clownfish in a tank your size, so you should be fine. But you are very slowly increasing your bioload, which is the way it should be done. Chronicles put too much too fast, and that was the problem. No big deal, it is a mistake I made myself when I first started keeping freshwater fish. So Chronicles, you will likely learn from your mistake and move on. Keep tuned here as there is lots of good willed advice. One more piece of advice: don't trust those bags of "live" sand to be live at all. Most likely it isn't. And always take whatever the LFS says with a pinch of salt. I was lucky, though, to come across some great live rock from my LFS (Adam's, seabass, you may know it); it did cycle my tank instantly, but in any case, I took things slow and allowed my tank to stabilize and tested the water before adding anything. The rock was expensive nevertheless, but it was worth it. Link to comment
Chronicles Posted July 20, 2003 Author Share Posted July 20, 2003 Prepacked 10lb bag from petco, Natures Ocean Bio-active Live Aragonite. It syas it contails over 10,000,000 hetrotrophic bacteria per pound. Contains live Autotrophic and Chemlithotrophic bacteria. It also says "This product has a shelf life of 12 months" and the date on the bag says "Use before Apr. 15, 2004, also says satisfaction guaranteed. A min of 1lb per gallon should be used. All bacteria are preserved in their natural live state using a patented process and a patented salt water enrichment solution QX-23. So as you can see it's not some random bag of sand I got from a LFS. I currently have 18lbs in the bottom of my tank. Taking it very slow w/ this tank, taking readings tomorrow and putting 1 fish in, leaving the other 2 in the 10gal. Thanks for your support. Link to comment
Chronicles Posted July 20, 2003 Author Share Posted July 20, 2003 here is a link to the sand I got, so far I'm very pleased. It took my 6gal of high ammonia/nitrite water and turned it to 0s. http://www.naturesocean.com/bioactive.htm Link to comment
chufa Posted July 20, 2003 Share Posted July 20, 2003 I was talking about those prepackaged bags. I got the same brand myself when I started. I would still keep testing. Link to comment
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