Frontline killing my inverts?

[Eggplant!]

Hello,

 

Twice now, (see here) I've had problems with crabs dying and shrimp having what appear to be vision and motor control issues after dosing my pets with Frontline Plus. I know Frontline contains a powerful invertebrate neurotoxin. Can this be the culprit? It seems too much to be coincidence. Has anyone else had this experience?

 

Thanks!

[supernip]

did you like dump the stuff in your tank or something? I doubt it got in your tank without your or your pet's physical contact.

 

Interestingly the material's msds states that its water insoluble, but hazardous to aquatic inverts. Does that mean they gotta eat the stuff somehow??

 

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/FI/fipronil.html

 

anywho, do daily water changes of 20-30% and run heavy carbon filtration with increased water flow. It's an organic so it should be easy to extract.

 

p.s. wet skim the hell out of your tank

[thekid]

Hello,

 

Twice now, (see here) I've had problems with crabs dying and shrimp having what appear to be vision and motor control issues after dosing my pets with Frontline Plus. I know Frontline contains a powerful invertebrate neurotoxin. Can this be the culprit? It seems too much to be coincidence. Has anyone else had this experience?

 

Thanks!

 

Did you wash your hands good before cleaning the tank or touching the tank? Dont pet your animals before touching your tank. I have a cat that uses frontline Ive had no probablems yet:) I dont see how it be airborn and go into the tank. otherwhise you would see alot more dead inscects around and possible some birds acting strange good luck

[seahorsedreams]

we have a rule around here. Whoever doses the dogs does not touch the tanks all weekend. The designated tank guy is not allowed to touch the dogs for the weekend either.

[silverdust]

I dont see how it be airborn and go into the tank. otherwhise you would see alot more dead inscects around and possible some birds acting strange good luck

 

I could see it getting into the tank on pet hair that's floating around and maybe landing in the tank...Do you have a cover on the tank? Do you sometimes find pet hair in it?

[Eggplant!]

I try to be as mindful as possible about washing my hands as much as I can when working in the tank. One of my dogs sheds like crazy (Jack Russel) and the hair is nearly impossible to control. It's certainly possible that hair could float into the tank.

 

I was primarily wondering if anyone else had seen something like this. It only seems to affect my emerald crabs and blood shimp. My hermit crabs, for example, seem fine. The shrimp has lived through both instances, but just barely.

 

I've dug up plenty of articles on the impact of fipronil on coastal estuaries. Even that MSDS sheet lists it as "Very toxic to aquatic organisms." The US Fish and Wildlife Service lists it as a "super toxin" on their toxicity scale. My tank is very small and i wonder if even tiny amounts would affect critters that might be particularly sensitive to fipronil.

[BustytheSnowMaam]

I think that there is something to this. Two years ago we came home from vacation to find a house that was top to bottom fleas. So many of them it looked like someone sprinkled pepper on your sock when you walked around (needless to say we were in a hotel for a few days).

 

I covered the tank thoroughly before bombing the house, and afterwards lost my arrow crab and two hermits- fish and corals were OK. Since fleas and crabs are related, I believe that the spray probably killed my crabs.

 

I have since learned the value of Frontline and can't live w/out it. But I always wash my hands for a long time before sticking them into the tank to make sure oils, chemicals, lotions, etc. are gone.

[supernip]

that really isnt right if you mention that fipronil is toxic to invertebrates which your corals are. It should affect them as well, unless their slim coat protects them somehow. But then you'd have to look for slimming as an indication of those.

 

And to that extent, how reactive is fipronil? Coral mucus is organic so fipronil should be more attracted to it. But if it isn't that reactive, it won't mess with the slim and the corals would just shed that layer. Again, look for a slim layer as indication.

 

Secondly, you have to look at the lethal dosage of fipronil. And consider how much got into your tank. Is it really enough to knock out your arthropods? Or could there be other things going on with the protocol you use when administering the drug to your pets? Think carefully about your habits because this might not be a direct correlation. It is much different than Tashaya's high concentration bomb situation.

 

Whether or not fipronil is specific for just Arthropods, I dunno. As you stated that it didn't affect your cnidarians. That really strikes me as weird though; as cnidarians are generally a lot more sensitive than arthropods, in terms of water quality. Emerald crabs are generally really tough, so if it affects them and not the hermits, that would also be an indication that something else might be at play.

[Eggplant!]

that really isnt right if you mention that fipronil is toxic to invertebrates which your corals are. It should affect them as well, unless their slim coat protects them somehow. But then you'd have to look for slimming as an indication of those.

 

Thanks for the reply, but I don't think that make a lot of sense. While invertebrates, corals (cnidarians) and shrimp (arthropods) are a very different biology. Corals have simple nervous systems, but it's certainly not nearly as advanced as something like a shrimp. I don't know that you can make the jump in logic that an invert neurotoxin would affect shrimp and coral equally.

 

Fipronil appears to be extremely toxic at low concentrations to at least some species of shrimp. this abstract puts the relative toxicity of fipronil in grass shrimp at the extreme end of the FWS Acute Toxicity Rating Scale. "super toxic" which equates to <0.01 mg/L. Keep in mind thats a lethal dose. My shrimp isn't dead after two bouts, so one could presume to see effects at much lower concentrations.

 

I'd expect firpronil to affect different organisms differently. Heck, it affects fleas, ticks, and lice differently. Not sure I can attribute the emerald crab death, but the shrimp has now had two occasions where it has lost motor control and sight within 2-3 days of a Frontline dose. I've had several people tell me they have seen similar effects (and even death!) with peppermint shrimp.

 

Final story is that I need to be even more paranoid than I usually am around Frontline time. Based on what I've read and the anecdotal evidence from other reefers, I'm convinced this stuff is pretty toxic to some critters in the hobby. Beware!

[Ricky@3rdshift]

Maybe I missed it, but is fipronil the active ingredient in Front line? I am just curious b/c that is the active ingredient in Fire Ant controls that last season long. I use it pretty regular here in arkansas for Fire Ant control.

 

I have never had a problem with it and the 2 reef tanks we have in our offices, which is where you would think it would be way airborne from the guys using it and carrying it in on clothing we wear.

 

I will double check, but I am 98% positive it is the same product.

Ricky

 

I just checked and yes its the same product just in differemt forms. The fire ant controls is a granular product.

 

On another note we use a product called Simizine, or princept (sp?) which is also the active ingredient in the algae controls for freshwater tanks. Crazy stuff I know.