LED Lighting and Minibow questions...

[cypherinc]

Hello,

I wanted to start off by complimenting this site, it is quite a site, and I was excited to find it.

 

I am interested in setting up a 2.5 or 5 gallon minibow in my kitchen and had a few questions about lighting and filtration.

 

According to the FAQs on this site, the best choice for filtration is going the natural route, using live rock and sand. It made some good points for this method, but what are the downfalls? I have available to me a CPR backpack wet/dry skimmer combo. Would this be usefull in a tank like this, and is a minibow sturdy enough to support a Hang on tank style filter?

 

When using a sand substrate for filtration, its my understanding that you need some creatures to keep the sand stirred up, do these creatures usally live in the sand, or do they need to be added to the tank?

 

As far as lighting goes, this tank is going to be very visable in the kitchen, and I would like to keep the stock hood on it if posible. What kind of lighting setups are used in these plastic hoods that come with the tank? Would it be positble to use LED lights for all of the lighting needs? I am handy with electronics, and after breifley looking over the hoods, it apeared that they could be easily modified to hold 4 LEDS, my thoughts were to use 2 blue and 2 white.

 

My last question pertains to sumps. What are they used for, and how are they constructed?

 

Thanks in advance for any input, and I look foward to chating with you guys.

 

Steve

 

P.S. I also run an avation forum web site, so if you guys are pilots, or air traffic controllers (what im going to school for) drop by, its www.atcforums.com

[zizmans]

Woah, where to begin. Ok, I'd say start with 5 over the 2.5, it's really small and hardware is a bit more....shall we say....you should know something about reefs. Sort of. I'd actually advise a 7 or 10. That's just me, I'm sure others will disagree, but I'm sure alot will follow me on this. As far as I've read there are no downfalls to LR filtration, but it's not like you can just put LR and water in a tank, then you are good to go. By LS filtration, I guess you are talking about a DSB. That's a whole other weeks reading right there. I can 99% garuantee you that the hood on ANY 5-10 gallon tank is not good enough for your lighting needs. LED's, dude, way too much $ and way too much time. Maybe you can do 4 on a 2.5, but I'm guessing that's not enough. Quite frankly onceif you get into this, a 2.5 is going to limit you to the point that you'll want more. Don't get me wrong , there are some SWEET 2.5's here. Although I think all of them belong to peeps that have other tanks as well. From your questions I'm thinking you've just scratched the surface. You really gotta spend some time going through the threads here. Not just page 1 , all of em. I suggest doing that, then posting your questions on say..Sunday, that'll give you a few days to read up, remember there is SEARCH

[zizmans]

By the way, in members nanos forum there are alot of minibows. Check them out.

[duckhuntboy]

I dont disagree with zizmans at all about the 7 or 10. Especially if it's your first nano, forget the 2.5 idea. You'll just be spending money replacing dead animals. Also, I don't see why you have to get rid of the factory hood if you want better lighting. No matter what you're going to keep, your tank will look awesome with just some power compacts. I don't have it, but I think your best bet is the CSL retrofit hood. It's 32 watts actinic/10k combo, and it is made to fit inside your origional hood. There aren't many drawbacks to having live rock, and the benefits are really important, IMO. Read up on different types of crabs and snails for sand sifters. Back to the tank size, a 2.5 or 5 gallon wont hold mcuch livestock besides snails and crabs anyways, unless you know what you're doing. I don't use live sand, I use sandblasting silica for cost issues. I then placed a cup of live sand in the sandblasting silica about 2 months ago, and it's now what you'd call "live sand", crawling with animals.

 

Supporting the skimmer isn't really a big issue, but like zizmans said about DSB's, there's a ton to read about skimmers. They are probably helpful, but aren't necessary, especially for a tank so small. You can get around a few water changes a month with a skimmer, but like I said, read up, because I don't have one, hence, I don't know if they're that beneficial or not. There's threads almost weekly here about skimming or not skimming, and what skimmer to use.

 

When you said "two blue LED's, and two white", lighting is more complex than that. Depending on what you need, you need to simulate different parts of the light spectrum. People use "blue" lights, called actinic lights, to serve a completely different purpose in photosynthesis than white lights. I'm not sure how relevent they are as far as nano-reefing goes, and being filtered out throughout the depths of the water, but a "blue" light isn't the way to go. You'd definately be happier, especially with the color of your light combo, with actinic lights. There's much more to it, and that's just what I think I know.

 

If you're going to keep a fish in this tank, for one, it's too small for a beginner to probably keep alive, but you can knock yourself out with the lighting. Hell, put in pink lights, but you need good lighting for corals, or anything else in your tank.

 

A sump adds water to your tank, and can be confusing, but are great for the tank. definately you want to know a bit about them before building them, and my recommendation is try a tank without one until you read a lot about them. They increase the amount of water in the tank, make it more stable, allow you to hide things like a heater, allow you to add supplements easier, etc... There's more to it than that, but they are hard to comprehend, and harder to build, especially if you're doing it the best way by drilling holes in your tank.

 

I may be way off... Like I said, I don't have a sump, I'm not a lighting expert, and I don't use a skimmer, but my tank is healthy. Someone want to correct my mistakes?

[zizmans]

I for one agree with duck. I am very much doing a chip and dale vibe (not the strippers, although we are VERY hot) I agree with everything he said. "After you", "no I insist, after you". His tip on the lighting is very valid, that is why I told you to check out Members nanos forum, so you could see your options. You can not throw a bulb in there and make it happen, is my point. Again I agree with my esteemed (spelling?) college. Sump=Good. But not something to rush into it all GRRRRRRR!!!!! There's a bit to it. NOW , blue LED's and antnics are not the same thing. With aquarium lighting you are creating UV spectrum lighting that mimics the SUN, that's not an acronym, it's the big ball of light up in the sky. Forget LED's. The questions you have asked can all be answered if you follow my advice of, READ EVERY THREAD. Fellow community peeps like Duckboy will help you along as I have. Right now you are thinking too much for your own good, stop. Read.

[duckhuntboy]

Thank you, zizmans.... and I think it's colleague, but I could be wrong.

 

I think what you should do, cypherinc, is buy a minibow 7, find someone on this site with a simple, healthy minibow 7, and try to follow those lines, just to start. Check out:

 

http://www.oc-creative.com/reef

 

It's a guy's tank named Gilman. It's really simple, but his tank is out of this world, I ###### you not.

[cypherinc]

Thanks for the information guys. A little background, I have kept tanks before, I currently have a 10gal and a 55gal fresh, and I kept a 55gal salt for a while, but an accident killed the live stock in it (bottle of windex on the shelf above the tank, and a nosey cat, nuff said).

 

I had been reading some information about LED's in the lighting forum, and got the impresion from one of the posts that it was posible to use those as opposed to a traditional setup. I read some more, and figured out that everyone is using them as suplimental lighting.

 

More on live sand, im not sure about a DSB, but I just want to keep the sand stirred in the bottom of the tank. I remember reading somwhere that if the sand just sits on the bottom and dosent have somthing crawling through it, it will start generating amonia.

 

Duck, you had said "CSL retrofit hood. It's 32 watts actinic/10k combo, and it is made to fit inside your origional hood"

 

Where do I find these at, and whats CSL, the brand name?

 

I think you guys have taken care of most of my questions, I was juts a little lost when it came to lights and the measurements. A friend of mine grows some plants inside, and I have seen MH setups, but have never seen Power Compacts used, nor the differnt numbers that you guys throw around. I read a figure that you want about a wat a gallon, is that correct?

 

Again thanks. I tried to do some reading and not sound like a a total tool, but I guess I still did

 

Thanks for the help

Steve

[cypherinc]

Oh yeah, another question.

 

I wanted to use my CPR backpack for two reasons. I have heard that having a protien skimmer really helps keep the tank clean, and two, alot of guys have taken the "bio media" out of the left side chamber, and placed thier heaters in there (This is a trick that guys with oscars use some times, because oscars seem to go after heaters in the tank). My thought was that it would keep the heater out of the tank, to give me a less cluttered feel.

 

Steve

[duckhuntboy]

The retrofit kit does indeed fit inside your origional hood. It's one long power compact bulb, with one side being white(10k) and the other actinic. Power compacts are the way to go now days. I would say metal halides are better, but just for starting out, power compacts are the next best thing, and much much cheaper. The retrofit kit is probably about 60 bucks, and CSL is the brand (custom sea life).

 

I'm not sure if you would call the sand bed in a nano a "DSB". It's hard to have a deep sand bed. My sand bed, for instance is only about an inch thick. It will vary from 1/2 inch to 3 or so inches depending on people's tanks. you definately dont need a 6 inch sand bed. If your tank is too rich in calcium and stuff (I think) your sand bed will get hard. Just get some crabs and snails to do your sand sifting for you. You don't need (and probably dont want) a starfish or something like that to do the job. Your tank is just too small, and they cause other problems.

 

The entire issue with the skimmer, is the question to whether it is taking out needed nutrients from the water column, as well as many other questions. If you are using it to hide your heater, you are using it as a sump in a sense. I don't know anything about the skimmer you are talking about, but in my opinion, skimmer or no skimmer, you should be allright. I don't think a skimmer will hurt your tank at all, and might even help it. It's just not a "must have" for nano's.

 

Hope that helps.

[cypherinc]

Well thank you for the advice, and the clairification.

 

If I do decide to skim, what do I need to add to the tank?

 

And, I think the last question, best place for live rock? should I just check out my LFS or mail order?

 

All the mail order places I see seem to have minimum orders of 30-40 pounds, I only want 7-10 punds if im not mistaken.

 

 

Again thank you all

 

I will post some pictures once I get it up and running.

[duckhuntboy]

buy 7 lbs of rock if you're doing corals, and 9 if you're not. Corals come attached to rock sometimes, so that adds up.

 

Where are you from? I've seen the worst live rock at fish stores. I've also seen good live rock.... It all depends. Harboraquatics.com and premiumaquatics.com dont have minimum amounts you have to order. I got mine from harboraquatics.com, and it was awesome, but premiumaquatics.com I've heard really good things about too. Check the live rock at the store for color. Is it purple, or pink? If not, it's not really important, but this means it's been healthy in a small sense. You should also be able to see life right on the live rock, when you look really hard. Don't get rock that is almost completely, or completely brown.

 

When you are talking about skimming, what do you mean, "you need to add something"? You probably still want a powerhead to move the water around, unless this skimmer you talk about it super powerful. Basicly you need: Live rock, live or regular sand, 50 watt heater, thermometer, enough powerheads to move every section of the tank adequately (probably 125 gallons/hour), power compact lighting, and probably a light timer, to set your photoperiod. I can't think of anything else I have. Just don't overdo the lighting right when you get your tank. Leave it at about 10 hours per day for at least 2 months. This will keep your algae blooms way down. Also, (and you know from freshwater keeping probably) dont add stock to the tank until ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate is about 0, and PH is at a good level.

 

That's the last thing. Do yourself a favor and buy salifert test kits....

ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, PH, and perhaps alkalinity, phosphates, and calcium.... The last three aren't necessary, and there's 30 different kits you can buy..... That's it man.... Knock yourself out.

[cypherinc]

Hey, incase you were wondering, here is a link to the back pack

 

http://www.cpraquatic.com/products/bakpak2r.html

 

It basicly a hang on back filter. There is a rio 600 powerhead with venturi on it to supply water into the skimmer, and on the left hand side there is bio media, which is half stringey plastic, and half cotton like material. From what I have been seeing, people are saying that bio media like that (I have seen bio balls mentioned in paticular) are nitrate factories.

 

The one pictured there is the Gen 2 model, they made some revisions to the return, and changed the collection box for the skimmer black, instead of clear plastic.

 

You mentioned when you use a skimmer, nuterients get taken out of the water. Do I need to add these back into the water myself?

 

Since this is going to sit on a kitchen counter, my thought I was I could use this back pack instead of a sump. Like I mentioned, I want to run the heater in the backpack, and after some more reading, I was thinking of some suplimental live rock in that chamber aswell.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Oh yeah, I called my local LFS today, and they want 119 for the CSL 2x36 retrofit kit. Is it just me, or does that sound expensive?

[cypherinc]

Hah, I keep forgeting and leaving things out of my posts. For circulation, I was thinking of one power head, pulling from the bottom rear of the tank, and supplying a spray bar pushing accross the surface, and then an additional PH to provide some flow accross the front of the tank.

[duckhuntboy]

The skimmer will remove stuff, but it wouldn't be anything to worry about. It will cut your water changes in half, so IMO, stick it on there. If you are adding live rock, your "sump" would now be more of a "refugium". Think about some macro algae for the skimmer then, to keep your tank healthy, and remove excess nutrients from the water column. if it would work, I don't know. Maybe the water moves too fast where you're putting the Live Rock.

 

the CSL kit from your LFS is WAY overpriced.... They are making twice what they bought it for by selling it to you. ######, all it is, is a light, a fixture, and a reflector I think. Get on the internet and buy from there. Don't pay much more than 60 for it, since that's what I've seen it for.

 

Some people get pretty fancy with their powerhead flow. As long as the flow is pretty even, you're OK. You may need to actually set up your tank with the live rock before you find where you need more flow, less flow, etc.

 

I still know nothing about your skimmer. To be safe, remove all the media, is what I would do. Just get rid of it, and keep only a collection cup to remove crap.

 

One more thing that is really really important, is as you can see, I'm the only one who's been typing on this thread. I'm happy to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge, but take whatever advice you get only as advice. It's not necessarily how you do things. I know what I'm talking about a lot, but there's an occasional time when I may be wrong... Just look out for that. What I am describing is most common at pet stores. I seriously would consider NOT asking your LFS for advice on anything, especially with the different needs of a NANO-REEF. My LFS is always wrong, and doesn't think my tank is healthy. Well, it is, and it's just because when they learned about reefkeeping, it was during the times when you had to have a 100 gallon tank, and everything else like that. I think you catch what I'm saying. Just get multiple opinions on everything. Take what I say, and maybe start a new thread somewhere else just asking if everything's OK that I've said.

 

Anyways, that's it man... keep the questions coming

[cypherinc]

I apprecitae all the information you have been giving me. I have actaully spent the day reading the rest of this forum, and reefcentral.com, and waiting to hear your replys to my questions

 

As for the LFS, I share in your opionion. I have learned everyting I know about cars, aquariums, web programing, networking administration, and cooking, from the internet. It always seems to me that when I start talking to people who arent on the net, they are a year or two behind in the advice that they have.

 

Thank you for all the help.

 

Steve

[duckhuntboy]

Yup. Good luck with your minibow.... Good tank selection!

[zizmans]

You mentioned 1 watt per gallon. No, try 5 per gallon.

[duckhuntboy]

Who mentioned that? I mentioned the 32 watt retrofit kit. 32/7=4.6 watts per gallon is what I recommended.

[duckhuntboy]

By the way, cypherinc, the 32 watt kit only works in the minibow 7, not the 5 or 2.5

[zizmans]

Cypher did a few responses back.