Twins Guy Posted March 16, 2003 Share Posted March 16, 2003 obviously there are many factors that influence success with SPS in a nano environment. i just wanted to offer some of my observations (rather unscientific of course) about nano-keeping SPS corals. my observations, or should i say concerns, are focused on coloration, growth, and polyp extension (measures of thrivingness:D, i mean coral happiness:)) more than survival. i hope most of us would agree that survival is not enough. common ingredients to all my systems (over the years) in which i've kept SPS include: -surface extraction-i'm a big fan!-selectively "filter" water with the highest concentration of organics, and increase light penetration. -20 gallons or less total system volume -approaching 1.5#/gallon good quality pacific live rock -aragonite substrate-varying grain size and bed depth, employed plenum twice -good water movement -calcium and carbonate supplementation -strong lighting Despite the reality of nanos' small volumes and buffering (speaking generally, i'm not just talking KH) capacity, i think that overall water quality and calcium maintenance present relatively minor challenges. so...i have a hard time keeping my hands off my tanks! as such, each of my tanks has been set-up slightly different, with some new had-to-have-it gadget. oolite or coarse-er arag sand, plenum or DSB, my LIGHTLY FED (i think this is important!) systems have never had issues keeping up with the bioload and nitrate levels have always remained low. kalkwasser, C-balance (2 part), and seachem liquid additives have all been employed for calcium replenishment with relatively good success, sometimes in spite of my knowledge void. i have just now gone to a calcium reactor-destined for a larger system. On the topic of lighting i have employed both fluorescents (NO-yep!, and PC) and now a metal halide. I should say that i have only killed one SPS, out of say 20 some colonies/frags. and sadly that frag was under 175W of 10K halide. but i don't think lighting was an issue there. i do believe that metal halide lighting is superior to other forms when it comes to SPS corals. Its intensity and broad spectrum are unmatched. Where SPS kept under the different calcium replenishment schemes were virtually indistinguishable, PC-kept (and NO-just more tubes) colonies frequently developed less color (and more brown), grew slower, and had less exagerated polyp extension. obviously no one's gonna equate 2x55W PC to a 175W halide even in a shallow tank, but admittedly that's the comparison i made. The final obstacle over which i obsess is water movement. As with lighting, overheating can be an issue and somewhat limits your options (unless you want to install a chiller-and no i'm not diminshing the value of a strategically placed fan!). another issue is space. with space at a premium in any self-respecting tank (nano:D j/k) it can be difficult to generate the very necessary changing currents. especially with the pico movement towards smaller tanks, i think this issue is far too often overlooked. when it comes to acros, i'm sorry to say i don't feel that a HOB and a minijet is enough. In spite of all the gadgets out there, wavemakers, rotating powerheads, aquaglobes, i think the largest challenge we face in keeping SPS in nanos is simulating natural water movement. my concern is not over the shear volume of water flow (although we have to balance it to avoid sand storms), but more with natural, more random motion, and evenly distributed forces (not concentrated in front of a 1/2 powerhead nozzle). my concern over water movement comes from visits to many successful larger home aquaria. even SPS in a friend's 58 exhibited more dense polyp distribution, better polyp expansion, faster growth rates and exagerted coloration. my attention is drawn to water movement because other factors (lighting, water quality/parameters) are more similar between the tanks being compared. i certainly don't doubt that success can be had in nano-keeping SPS, and have witnessed good results (copyright lunchbucket, reefbuilder, cal3v, many others too). i do however feel that nanos impart limitations (on water motio specifically) that can affect SPS corals. i'd like to hear what ya'll think! tg Link to comment
Dave ESPI Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 good thread. Lemme stew on it fer a day. and Ill reply with somethig usefull. I'll flame ya later J/K Link to comment
LEEWINK Posted March 17, 2003 Share Posted March 17, 2003 i just posted this under "too much current ?" on the general board, covers my view on flow, here you go and sorry to repeat the insert here :- i'm not too sure on your pumps there, as in flow rate, but here's my flow once ive reset my 27x12x15 (16 gall). 2400 ltr/h on my reefclean system (giant spraybar) 600 ltr/h through my skimmer (deltec ap600) 1000 ltr/h between two powerheads (alternately 500 ltr/h ea.) 200 ltr/h running my rowaphos cannister (old fluidised bed can.) Ive outlined mine to show a point, the majority of my flow will be running with the reefclean, i will have around 75 holes drilled in it at about 3-5mm each, so my base of tank flow will be soft and spread. my skimmer flow will run out of, and return to my weirs, which will again gently flow over the top surface. And the powerheads will be positioned to flow in such a way as to decipate the flow again away from, or not directly at or near the corals etc. what i'll end up with is an even powerfull but gentle flow throughout the tank. This is what i'm coming to, the idea of flow is not to work out a flow rate for your tank and throw a single powerhead in there to match that, try to make your flow varied and multiple sourced, otherwise you'll have "one direction" flow, and a hell of alot of deadspots, which you dont want. so, again, i would not personally use one powerhead, vary the flow and use multiple sources for that flow. just out of curiosity, how much flow is from that pump in question above ? my pics are in the below thread, just copy and paste to the url bar if interested. cheers lee :) :) Link to comment
Crakeur Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 here is what I have found in my tank: on the left side of the tank, I have two montipora dig frags and a montipora cap frag that grow like wild. the digi frags were buried in algae and, after removing the algae, they are still healthy and fine (I thought they were gone before plucking the green stuff). Acro frags that were placed on that side never made it. On the right side of the tank I have thre acro frags, another monti cap, a hydnophora and a yellow scroll and all are doing real well. Major polyp extension, growth is evident (one frag is starting to grow over the glue). Algae growth (caulerpa) is not as bad on that side of the tank. Water flow is obtained by a powerhead on the right that is pointed to the left and slightly angled toward the back. A powerhead on the left blows water on an angle across the front of the tank, toward the right side. (fuge flow is minimal so not mentioning it here, althought the outflow is on the left side). I recently removed the powerhead on the left and put my microchiller there. The one factr that I think might be the difference is the sunlight that hits the left side of the tank. This is the only reason I can think of for the increase in macro algae and hair algae on the left side of the tank. While I would normally say that the sunlight would be benefical for sps growth, I think that it is helping the macro/hair and thus making it harder for the sps to succeed on the left side of the tank. Lighting is provided by a 70w hqi and a 36w pc actinic. Since I put the chiller on, the lights are on an angle on the tank and the right side gets the benefit of the halide being almost directly overhead. Since this switch, the coloration hasn't changed much in the acro millepora (green tip, very hairy), the tri color is still mostly brown with some green polyps and the brown acro that I picked up has started turning mostly green. As I said, I think the extra sunlight has made the algae more competetive than the corals. I will be adding some more corals in the near future and I will set up a little shield of sorts to try and block out the sun. This will answer that question for me. Disjointed and possibly not making much sense. Link to comment
Twins Guy Posted March 19, 2003 Author Share Posted March 19, 2003 hey crak-thanks for offering your thoughts! i don't think i got into this in my original post...while my frags are indeed doing well (in 2 months they've all encrusted over glue and onto LR-have good polyp extension) i still think there's something missing. i look in the larger reefs where my babies were born and their parents wow you. i just think that vital ingredient that's missing for me is achieving proper water flow-and nano-factors limit some of my options. sure i could put in a reefclean or a weir (from what i can tell leewink-no one here, as in america, has a clue on these concepts) but frankly i like to see more animals in my tanks than filters and motors. obviously theres ways to do it-but it takes extra resources that a lot of people that come here, read nano-reef.com, don't have. i offer my comments so someone else can learn from them. while we are talking in the advanced forum i think my comments are prolly best addressed to those contemplating the jump to SPS. not to say that it can't be done cuz there are already scores of people doing it and ready to refute any of my statements, i just hope people will take the time to consider my observations-before proceeding. while the sunlight undoubtedly adds intensity, i would be suspicious of the spectrum of natural sun light actually reaching the tank (multiple panes of glass, window screen, air pollution). for whatever reason undesirables and macros seem to adapt/thrive in the shifted spectrum. and i bet you're right on in thinking that the afro/macro is suffocating your acros. take care of them and unless there's a huge light differential between the left and right ends of the tank, i'm sure those acros will do better! good luck with the experiment-if you ever get around to it. LEE-i'm not sure if you're asking me about flow rates but i suspect that confusing question was part of the cut and paste. considering that i've used nearly every plausible combination of powerheads, i'd have no clue which one(s) you were refering to. tg Link to comment
Crakeur Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 Twins, when the halide/actinic is in it's normal spot on the tank (directly over the tank) the light from the window is not noticably different. However, now that I have the chiller on and the lights are on an angle, there is definitely a noticeable amount of light on the left side. Also, I let my actinic go on at noon and the halide pops on around 12:30 and the sunlight is finished by then. The only proof I have that the light from the window is doing anything is the fact that my maxima moves to catch the sunlight and then, when the overheads pop on, the clam moves again. I noticed yesterday that the clam wasn't quite as happy as it usually looks and I now know why. I moved the hood and the clam isn't getting the same amount of halide/actinic that it was getting. Thanks for posting this thread as it allowed me to catch this potential problem. I'll be moving the clam tonight. Link to comment
LEEWINK Posted March 19, 2003 Share Posted March 19, 2003 sorry, there was another thread about flow, i copied and pasted my answer from that one. here was the question from that :- "alright i have a 20h and was wondering could i run a rio 600 or would the water flow be to great . also is 600ppm too much calcium i dont currntley have any thing that uses calcium so i dont think so but oh well also where should i position the power head" my two seperate powerheads are tunze type with electronic control, they are wave making powerheads which alternate flows, using a 0 - 100% softstart flow control. my powerheads to use for the reefclean are maxijet MP1200's. i wasn't sure of the flows of rio's as i don't think we have them here, to which i explained that multi source flow would be the better option as one powerhead only would create deadspots. cheers lee :) :) Link to comment
Xwhite Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 If he's sitting at 600 ppm calcium, what does alk look like? John Link to comment
Twins Guy Posted March 20, 2003 Author Share Posted March 20, 2003 x- you seem to be the chemistry expert, why don't you tell us? better yet...find your answer/pose your question in the thread that lee copied and pasted that excerpt from. no offense, but this is getting way off topic. lee-haven't tried any tunze yet-waiting for that nano-turbelle stream:D tg Link to comment
LEEWINK Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 hi tg, yeah, good point, the nano stream !! how cool will that be. i couldn't imagine wacking a 6500 ltr/h stream in mine now, maybe i'll wait then too !!! LOL cheers lee :) :) ps. maybe we should fire some emails at them (tunze) and see the reply, as nano'ing is a reasonable concern now. Link to comment
LEEWINK Posted March 20, 2003 Share Posted March 20, 2003 "lee-haven't tried any tunze yet-waiting for that nano-turbelle stream" these are serious german bits of kit, superb, quite and very reliable. The workings of these are super too, a real softstart (not like so many others), so as to avoid that real annoying clicking on start from normal wave systems. unfortunately for all this quality, the price matches. i'll post some more piccies when mine arrive and ive finally reset. cheers lee :) :) Link to comment
printerdown01 Posted March 28, 2003 Share Posted March 28, 2003 Nice... I like all of your thoughts. Honestly we have become quite good at mimicing a lot of the marine environment with the exception of two things: upwelling (which is also indirectly responsible for the blooms and abondance of phyto/zooplankton) and waves. There have been some efforts in both areas... but as you mentioned are are not that good at duplicating the results. The larger the aquarium the more options you have in equipment for mimicing waves. There is only one aquarium that I am aware of in the world (I'm sure that others have followd in their path by this point) that TRUELY mimics both of these and that is the Monterey Bay Aquarium in Monterey, Ca. They actually use a hydrolic piston system to pull thousands of gallons into a tube, and then expell it evenly into one side of the tank. This sends a surge through the aquarium that perfectly mimics natural water movement -the results were outstanding!! They also pump in cold nutrient rich waters full of phyto and zooplankton to mimic upwelling (but they are afforded the luxuary of being able to tap the Monterey Bay at the bottom of the cliffside for this resource... Thought you might be interested. There is a LOT of info out there on the surge machine at the M.B.A. and there are people out there trying to create smaller piston systems that will mimic the results. However, it is unlikely that home aquariums will have this in the immediate future and even less likely that nanos will have this anytime soon. Your point is well taking, we are at a disadvantage in nanos. Not only do we have space constraints for equipment, but larger tanks get the newest and latest technology first... p.s. Alternating currents and surge buckets are being used in nanos to some degree. Link to comment
skylsdale Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 I would like to bring this back up for discussion. It's a great start to quite possibly a very constructive thread (barring the people asking about what flows they should have in their own personal tanks:rolleyes: ) that I've run across multiple times doing searches on old threads, and I think members' experience and observation can still be added to it. Link to comment
bgoode Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Prineterdown mentioned surge devices being used in nanos- has anybody here used them, and what size. Was there any noticeable effect to the corals? Link to comment
birdman204 Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 I am working on a 1/4 gallon carlson device for my minibow, It will take some time, but i think i can make it work. search reefcentral or here for more info. Link to comment
samstersam Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 i don't understand what the hoopla over SPS's are... i find them the same difficulty as any other coral i've had...keep your water parameters in check, and bingo, they grow and branch! can someone tell me what this goddamn elite status of acro raising is? what the hell is the big deal... Link to comment
birdman204 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Carlson device, not working, but, i have mastered it for a bigger tank, now where to find a bigger tank....... Oh Yeah, Samsteram, Why are you a jerk everywhere? Not just this thread but pretty much all of them. Why the attitude??? Link to comment
samstersam Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 eh? attitude? u detect attitude here right now from me? dude lower your sensitivity meter a bit, and glue some leather on your skin ( i myself need to pack thicker leather too)...otherwise u won't last two seconds in this place...unless your happy as a lurker...which i think u need to do more to understand this place a bit better... get a feel for the inhabitants of this godforsaken armpit of the internet and try to get a sense of each individual's way of posting in threads (typing style) a bit more before u presume things like that...X) Link to comment
Twobuck40 Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 samstersam Thanks for the constructive input, lets see your SPS. I coulnt find them in your most recent pic , grow real easy huh! lol edit-->FOUND IT! waaaay down on the bottom looks like you've had that for a while lol BTW I like you drunk posting style, I'm fluent in drunkenese! printerdown01 OMSI has a wave tank that is about 10' long 3'wide and deep, actuated by pneumatics, check this, but I dont think it could be done in a nano, would make a great wall tank though! Link to comment
skylsdale Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 try to get a sense of each individual's way of posting in threads (typing style) a bit more before u presume things like that... Being that 13 year olds are so darned flighty all the time, it's hard to know what emotional status you may be holding at any given time, samsterdam. Also, I would like to see some better pictures of your SPS--ONE colony in a tank with little-to-no growth or branching at that size isn't much of a success, IMO. Link to comment
skeletor Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 the only thing I have to say on the subject is "SCWD" my tank has been a lot happier and I get lots more polyp extension during the day and night on all my SPS.. I used to run 4 powerheads (2 x rio90s, 1 x rio200 and 1 x rio400) in the tank but replaced those with a mag7 / SCWD combo.. I don't have as much water movement but it's more like the motion of the ocean and everyone seems to love it. IMO surge devices are just not suited to nano tanks. -skeletor- Link to comment
Jahkaya Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Okay, Sammy boy, I will tell you what the big deal about SPS's are: First without SPS, there would be no reef. It is what creates all the reefs in the world and is what live rock is. Therefore there would be no Live Rock and Hence, no reef tank for Supernano. Second, A fast growing, Thriving SPS tank, requires knowledge, Time, specialized equipment, and Money. Sure one can keep sps alive with minimal care under a few NO flourescents, but to have an SPS tank that is kicking ass and growing like crazy cannot be done by a beginner in 4-5 months, regardless of how much money they have. The SPS just will not grow or grow very slowly. Sofites, on the other hand, I have seen thrive with average lighting and Salinity, temperature, calcium, alk swings all over the place in an unestablished tank. I have seen xenia jungles in a 55 gallon tank with 2 96w pc's. Even with all your water parameters in check and good lighting SPS have all sorts of issues that don't pertain to mushrooms, xenia, colt, and zoos. People put a lot of time, money effort and research in to having thriving, growing acros that keep their color. Therefore they are proud of their accomplishments and of their hobby. There are some people that are idiotic and think they are l337 cause they have a great SPS tank, but I think there is nothing wrong with people being proud of their hard work. Link to comment
birdman204 Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Originally posted by skeletor I used to run 4 powerheads (2 x rio90s, 1 x rio200 and 1 x rio400) in the tank but replaced those with a mag7 / SCWD combo.. I don't have as much water movement but it's more like the motion of the ocean and everyone seems to love it. -skeletor- AMEN brother!!! http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread...&threadid=19864 Polyp extension is AMAZING!!! My Diodogorgia Is Amazingly happy. I have heard they don't do well in captivity, but the LFS had 1 for over 2 mos, just sitting there all the time, I picked it up w/ a due store credit, for the 1st week it opened! sweet, about 1/2 to 2/3 open. 1 Hour after hooking up the SCWD, BAM Almost Every polyp was opened! I have never seen the polyps on my green monti cap, once the scwd was in, I can now see them! Amen to this product. Plus, things like GSP look really killer in switching currents! Link to comment
birdman204 Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 This is 35 minutes after scwd operation. Link to comment
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