steelhealr Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Cyanobacteria is one of the nuisance growths that we may find in our tanks during the maturation process or even later. It can be one of the more frustrating problems we run into along with hair algae and diatom blooms. Understanding a little bit about it may help you to fight it in your tank. What is Cyano? Cyanobacteria are one of the oldest living microscopic organisms on earth. This organism has been in existence for more than 3.5 billion years. In fact, some articles describe it as a fossil. It is reputed to be the source of most organic material on earth and also the main source of oxygen. Cyanobacteria have many names including blue-green, red, purple, black and green slime algaes although they are not true algae. The color arises from a pigment in the cell which assists chlorophyll in photosynthesis. In fact, theories state that cyanobacteria may have been the source of choloroplasts, the structures that contain chlorophyll, in present plant cells. In nature, cyanobacteria can be found in water that is contaminated or is high in nitrates or phosphates. Cyano Facts 1) Cyano is a large bacterium that is aerobic but can live under anaerobic conditions 2) It can tolerate extremes of temperature and salinity 3) Develops a protective mucous layer which gives rise to its 'slimy' nature. 4) can trap gas bubbles 5) can develop a modified cell called an akinete which stores carbohydrates under adverse conditions to aid in survival 6) can appear in multiple colors as listed above. 7) has an EXTREMELY FAST growth rate and can double every 20 minutes How Do I Know I Have It? The first sign that you may have cyano is seeing very fine bubbles adherent to your live rock or substrate followed by the development of a slimy layer which is frequently red, but may have any of the colors listed above. This layer is lighter than water (if not adherent to sand) and will float if lifted off the rock. It can spread rapidly and then can develop a filamentous-type appearance. Picture of cyanobacteria on substrate (on the right side): Why Did I Get it In My Tank? This type of bacteria thrives in water that is high in nitrates and phosphates. Unfortunately, it is usually a sign of excess nutrients in the water. But don't take that too personally as a sign of poor water husbandry. Frequently, it can start when there is an undiscovered death of an animal or organism that is in your tank. However, it is more commonly related to excess nutrients. Many claim that 'low flow' is a cause, however, there is no proven evidence that this is the case. So, possible causes include: --overfeeding --undiscovered death of a tank inhabitant --excess phosphates (using water or topoff that is high in phosphates) --poor water maintenance, ie, poor nutrient export So, What Do I Do Now? Eradicating cyanobacteria, once established, is a frustrating experience that requires patience and attention to tank maintenance. Here are some of the most common recommendations to aid you: 1) Change feeding habits, many recommend every other day feeding, to reduce nitrates 2) Although no strong evidence to support this, consider increasing water flow or redirecting flow to dead areas 3) Skim 4) Find the source of contamination and remove it 5) Increase the frequency of water changes 6) Siphon off the cyanobacteria to help reduce the load. You can use airline tubing attached to hard plastic tubing. You can also siphon the substrate to remove detritus. Use a turkey baster to float if off the LR and then suction it up with a turkey baster. Be forewarned..it grows back quickly 7) Change to RO/DI water if you are not using it to reduce phosphates 8 ) Consider adding a phosphate binding media insert. You can also consider adding polyfilter until clear (helps bind phosphates). 9) You can consider reducing lighting but this is often of little help 10) Add cyano-eating livestock. Some cyano eaters include Mexican Red Leg Hermit Crabs, Astrea snails and Trochus snails. Here is a photo of my astrea snail eating cyano: There is no silver bullet. Using these techniques can take up to several weeks before the cyano regresses and patience cannot be overemphasized. Desperate Times Require Desperate Measures This is a controversial paragraph I am including but there is a growing number of people who are trying chemical methods to eradicate cyanobacteria with both excellent results and not so great. I don't put this here as a recommendation nor as a substitute for good water husbandry, but for completeness. There are several water treatments available to treat cyanobacteria and many of these contain the antibiotic erythromycin. Erythromycin inhibits protein sythesis and is used generally against aerobic gram positive bacteria but does effect gram negatives as well (nitrosamonas and nitrobacter are gram negative). There are many risks entailed when you introduce an antibiotic to your tank: 1) Reducing/destroying the biologic filter 2) Creating a resistant strain of bacteria 3) Toxic effect on inverts and livestock Brand names of products that treat cyanobacteria and contain antibiotics: 1) Maracyn (not Maracyn 2) 2) E.M. Tablets 3) Human erthromycin, EryC Brand name of producsts with unknown active ingredients: 1) Chemi-Clean (?oxidizer) 2) Red Slime Away Treatment includes: 1) Reducing the cyano load first by scooping or siphoning 2) Remove carbon/media from the tank's filtration system 3) Stop skimming for the initial 2 days, followed by a 25% water change 4) Treat for 5-7 days 5) Follow directions, generally 1 tablet (250mgs) per 10 gallons of water The decision to use chemical methods is a personal one and may only be a temporary reprieve if water conditions are not improved. Some people may chose this path if inverts are being affected. It is not an excuse for clean water. Good luck and I hope this helped. SH Link to comment
steelhealr Posted June 5, 2005 Author Share Posted June 5, 2005 What I could clarify is that cyano can 'fix nitrates', so, focusing on phosphate is important...hopefully implied in that RO water and phosphate binder may help. SH Link to comment
spongebillyboi Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 phos-zorb pouches changed every 8 weeks simplify's phosphate control. and monthly 50% water changes, and every 20% in between to replace lost trace element used up by inhabitants. Link to comment
Caesar777 Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Watch out, as some phosphate-absorbers leach other chemicals into the water. The key is limiting the nutrients that get into the tank. Nice post, steelheadr. Link to comment
LHorn Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 In the picture above, the cyanobacterium is the reddish stuff on the right. But, what is the amber colored stuff on the left? I seem to have a bit of a problem with that. Link to comment
lgreen Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 awesome thread!!!! cool i am glad you know about the maracyn trick. ethromiacin is great! Link to comment
steelhealr Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Thanks...FAC_NY would cut me in half with a lightsaber, but, nothing I did was helping. So far, it's been weeks and the cyano has not recurred, had no losses and corals are thriving. Thanks to all. SH Link to comment
Stanley Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Eventually you should compile your stuff and publish SH. Link to comment
steelhealr Posted July 10, 2005 Author Share Posted July 10, 2005 Stanley..thanks...BTW...calculus and Pchem were tough...I see your a mathematician...kudos. SH Link to comment
lgreen Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Originally posted by Stanley D(u*w)=u'*w + u*w' ewh that's scary. Link to comment
steelhealr Posted July 11, 2005 Author Share Posted July 11, 2005 uh...hmmmm....diffentials? definitely not integrals...LOLOL SH Link to comment
Psimitry Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I have a single rock in my system that though it is over a year old (tank was 8 months established when I bought it, and it's been 6 months since then), must still be having some die-off. I say this because: 1. I have an 18 gallon tank. 2. I do a 10% water change twice weekly 3. I stir my substrate every water change 4. I have a CPR Bakpak dual skimmer running 24/7 (usually takes about a week and a half to fill one of the cups at the wetest foam level). 5. In this skimmer, I have phosphate binding filter media changed every water change per instructions. 6. My lighting is on timers with only 12 hrs max photoperiod. 7. I have a large clean-up crew including 8 Astrea(sp?) snails, and 6 mexican red leg hermits (who consequently, neither touches my cyano (ARRGH!!)). 8. I only feed once per day with a small dose of Liquid life Marineplankton, Kent Phytoplex, and a small amount of Mysis. 9. I have a cheato bunch in my 'fuge - it has its own lighting that runs for about 16 hrs a day. In theory, my tank should be largely cyano free. And yet, that rock still has a decent amount of cyano that I have to suck out every week or so. It also has a nasty patch of briopsis attached to it (that was getting really bad until I pulled it off). My water params are: pH: 8.0 Ammonia: Undetectable Nitrate: 'bout 5 PPM Nitrite: Undetectable KH: 8 Calcium: 385 PPM Phosphate: I don't know 'cause I can't read the salifert test to save my life - but I think they're low. Any thoughts? Edit: Oh - using Instant Ocean salt. Plan on switching to Reef Crystals w/ my next salt purchase. Link to comment
DCDeacon Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 One thing you might check, and I believe that this played a role in the appearance of cyano in my 40, is how old your lights are. I have read that as lights get older, the poorer spectrum not only is less beneficial to your corals, but more beneficial to best algae like cyano. Dunno if that is just a coincidence of if there's something to it. Perhaps SH can comment. Also, I don't think you said whether or not you're using RO water. I got it largely under control (I hope) in my 12 gal DX by switching to RO and monitoring how long I was running lights. Still struggling to take back control of my 40. Link to comment
Psimitry Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Originally posted by DCDeacon Also, I don't think you said whether or not you're using RO water. Never has a drop of tap entered my system. It's been RO since day one. Link to comment
janasleah Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Interesting note....I have had a minor problem w/cyano for about 6 weeks....tried more frequent/larger water changes, chemipure, poly pads, etc w/no significant improvement. I ordered some chemi-clean. It was pointed out that chemiclean is not erythromycin, just an oxidizing agent; but I'd already ordered it and it was shipped, so I went ahead and used it when it came. Did my second treatment last night, and so far, wonderful results. Most of the cyano I could see is minimal to gone. One patch on the rock was about 1/2" in diameter last night; today it's a few tiny spots. No idea on the chemical reason for this...but I'm happy! Link to comment
lgreen Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 just wondering if you knew steel, some people where asking in another thread about using maryacin or red slime remover (or anythign with ethromyacin, an antibiotic) and if it has any effect on the good bacteria in the tank. I don't think, but not sure. You got any comments w/ regard to that? thanks Link to comment
steelhealr Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 Here's my thoughts..and I'll post here what I did. I think cyano can take hold in a good tank if the conditions are present..even if you have good husbandry. This algae is opportunistic...been around for millions of years. They can fix nitrates so, even small nitrates can feed them. Psimitry should still check his water for phosphates. There are a lot of claims about 'low flow'. Perhaps before it takes over...flow can be an issue. But once cyano gets going, I think the flow thing goes out the window...even may blow it around the tank.JMO. As for the biological filter, I could detect no effect. I think the antibiotic in E-M tabs, Maracyn and ChemiClean--erythromcyin, affect predominantly gram positive organisms and nitrobacter and nitrosamonas are gram negative. Still, there are incidents of people losing some livestock, but, I've found from the posts that a majority do not. Here is my post on how I treated: Initial Post Hi....As you know, I had very good initial success with my 2 month old 24G Nano Cube until my tank suffered two insults, one unavoidable and one an error in judgement. I had achieved the '0' nitrates trophy and diatom scraping was down to almost once a week. Then, like others here, I got nailed. Insult 1, accidental.....I purchased and acclimated a green clown goby which when released into the tank, bolted for the rocks and disappeared never to be seen again. Several weeks later I had my first cyano. Fortunately, it disappeared with a turkey baster, vacuuming and a great cleanup crew. I posted this pic on the cyano article above of my astrea eating it: Insult 2, error in judgement.....I purchased a brain coral over the internet and when it arrived, I had strong suspicions that it was DOA. I tried to save it without success and the brain disintegrated and contaminated my tank. The resulting cyano bloom was disastrous. It's not easy to post these pix in front of everyone, but, if this helps someone else, my pride can take second place. Like many others, I have crystal clear water, good coralline growth and '0 params' except for my nitrates which rose to 10 ppm after the brain death (pardon the pun). I have 20X water flow and minimally feed my three small nano fish..by hand sometimes to avoid excess. Even wash off my mysid shrimp to get rid of the liquid. Check out what a dead coral can do to your tank: Would you believe that these pictures were taken one day after I completely scooped all that cyano off? So, what do you do? I never added anything to any of my tanks, FW or SW, except buffer. Desperate times require desperate measures. I had that darn E-M tab over the rear chambers of my tank several times, pulling it away and refusing to drop it in. Well, I caved the other day. I started treating my tank. Today is day three of treatment, and, so far, I see 90% resolution and no loss to livestock or corals. I tested my parameters this morning early: pH 8.0 nitrite 0 ammonia 0 nitrates 10 dkH 10 s.g. 1.026 So far, no sign of loss of my biological filter. I will be back to give people follow-up. I have to do a 25% water change tonite after work and several more days to go. Also, in response to my frustration with this, I posted a thread on cyano, as you see above. I realize that erythromycin is not the answer to poor water quality, however, if a diabetic patient with out of control glucose comes in with a massive foot infection, you'd treat the infection and then get the 'sugar under control'. I made the decision to do the same. I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS APPROACH at the present time as my results are premature and good water husbandry is the primary wat to go. SH Follow up post: Five days later and reclaiming my tank. I'm including this post in my thread for completeness: Before After Before After And now (after completing the cleanup), back to designing my tank. Thanks to everyone here who PM'd me with support. And once again, thanks to the other posters here who encouraged me to 'go where no man's gone before'... Here's looking at you. SH Tank shot the other day, 7/05 As always, my favorite line is, if FAC_NY could read this, he'd light saber me. LOLOL . I had excellent results..no recurrence..no loss of livestock...no loss of biological filter. My corals were being overrun and destroyed. I was doing almost every other day 10-25% water changes, vacuuming cyano, changing flow direction .....no help after weeks. I'm glad I tried it and would do it again. SH Link to comment
DCDeacon Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 SH, thanks for sharing the info. I can tell you that, believe it or not, my cyano infestation in my 40 was worse. It, essentially, destroyed that tank and everything in it. I did try to resolve that problem by dealing with the nitrates and phosphates and changing the water regularly. The result is a tank that, by and large, is dead after having reached a very beautiful state of balance. Lessen learned. I waited too late to bite the bullet and try the method you did and paid the price. A mistake I don't intend to make again. P.S. Your tank is looking beautiful, great job. Link to comment
steelhealr Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 Thanks DC..it wasn't easy to take the road less travelled. When you read names that publish articles saying 'don't do it', it's not easy to go against the grain or the 'standard of care in the community'. However, like your previous situation, I was losing my tank. SH Link to comment
BrookR1 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 SH...I recently had to make the same decision. Cyano killed a couple of zoo frags before I decided to add the Chemi-Clean. The cyano was eliminated. I did, however, have a frogspawn that closed up for several days after treatment. It was somewhat weakened, though. It's slowly making a comeback...it's been almost two weeks and is about half recovered. But, desperate times require desperate measures. Luckily, I didn't have any fish in my tank at the time. If I were to do it again, I might have gone with 2 half doses rather than one full dose. This stuff seems quite effective. Link to comment
janasleah Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Steelhair, I can b elieve the erythromycin worked well.....I also worry about creating resistant strains of cyano, spread by frags or whatever. That's not to say I wouldn't (and still won't!) use it. The interesting thing to me is that chemiclean is not erythromycin. On another thread I had stated that I'd ordered it and someone (Knowse, maybe?) remarked that chemiclean wasn't antibiotics and hadn't done him any good. So I was skeptical when I started three days ago; but so far it's done pretty well. My case was nothing like yours, though; I had a few zoas covered, a few spots here and there on the sand, a few spots on the rock. It just wasn't going away w/husbandry improvements. Perhaps chemiclean won't work on heavy cases of cyano.... Link to comment
steelhealr Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 Hi BrookeR1...fortunately you had as good results as I did. Actually, the usual livestock that suffers seems to be the inverts and corals. Fish can be tolerant, tho', I have read posts about them succumbing. I started with half the dosage, increased and did half-way and post tx water changes, 25%. Janasleah...I was under the impression that ChemiClean was erythro...anyone know the active ingredient then?? The pix don't lie..the result was nothing less than DRAMATIC. Red goo all over the place and then pristine white substrate. Make sure you do a large water change and then reverse with carbon. ....cyanobacteria is not actually an algae, but a bacteria. Whether or not it can easily develop resistance to antibiotics in the same fashion as regular bacteria, I'm not sure. Frequently, resistance in bacteria is transferred by something called a plasmid. I don't know if cyano transfer plasmids. I would think that one treatment would unlikely cause a problem with resistance. I DO think an INCOMPLETE treatment could result in a RECURRENCE of the cyano. IMO if one choses to treat the tank, it is extremely important to bring water conditions to the best they can be prior to dosing to: 1) maximize survival of the tank inhabitants 2) minimize the chances of recurrence by making your tank conditions 'hostile' (i.e., pristine) to cyano. SH Also, not sure if it's the case, but, one should also consider vacuuming out as much as possible before dosing in case of the described existence of a cyanotoxin. Reportedly, skimmers go crazy after dosing when the cyano begins to die. SH Link to comment
Psimitry Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 bacteria can only become resistant to antibiotics if some survives the treatment. Much in the way that people are told to keep taking antibiotics on schedule even after they feel better when they have some sort of infection - it's to eliminate every trace of the bacteria from one's body. It's when you start dosing oneself with antibiotics and you don't actually need them or you don't finish the treatment that you create bacteria that are resistant (it's one of the reasons that many doctors now have signs up in their exam rooms saying that they won't prescribe antibiotics unless a bacterial infection has been confirmed). Link to comment
Tigahboy Posted July 23, 2005 Share Posted July 23, 2005 steel - so did u use chemi-clean or erythromycin you had laying around in a pill bottle? that would be very interesting if it were the latter. edit: nm. I read more carefully and found the answer to my question. hehe. but it would've been funny/interesting if it was straight from a medicine cabinet. Link to comment
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