One of the worst days .....and AWAY !

[ManGups]

Today got a call from my wife ..."Tank does not look good. it is all cloudy". I was like !@#$... what happened.

 

So over the phone... she was able to describe that for some reason the tank looked cloudy and 2 fishes are dead but corals look okay- I was kind of panicking - did my doser malfunction and dump the whole alk dose from the container, did the bubble tip move and get sucked into the powerhead. It all did not make sense.

 

 

After lots of pictures/video exchange - I have no idea what happened -

 

1) I have 3 fish dead, tank is cloudy not because of the water but looks like a sand storm inside a tank (like when you just add sand to your tank you have fine sand sticking to the glass).

 

2) buuble tip is fine - at his usual place

 

3) doser has not malfunctioned. Tank parameters on apex do not register anything is the container volume reduced much.

 

4) Corals seem to look fine. I would have expected corals to show stress (RTN, STN) first if NO3 spiked or anything went wrong. (some corals you see white - they has lost flesh some time back and were left in Tank). I see some corals are stressed with mucus but cannot say what is expected by tomorrow...

 

 

 

 

I am also away from home - I travel to work 4 days a week so will not be back till Thursday so see first hand. Maybe my tank crashed and is not recoverable - I can only judge on Thursday.

Here are videos as i got from my wife:

 

https://youtu.be/N_glWDb_-DA

 

https://youtu.be/ZSFlry4fzcc

 

 

 

Possibility:

 

Sand bed got disturbed majorly and we have an NH3 spike. That would be the most logical explanation based on the pictures but i would expect water ph to change but there is no change whatsoever.

 

But if sand bed got moved - how the hell did it happen?

 

This is the Ph graph from yesterday to today. Incident was around 5 pm today and you can see nothing registers..

 

[FlowerMama]

Any spray, perfume, cleaners, anything used today? Was anything put into the tank by mistake by the toddler I hear? anything you can think of? I cant really tell from the pictures. Any lotion on the hands that went into the tank for anything? A spawning event of any kind? bacterial bloom? Do you have a fuge, anything happen there?

[najluni15]

Without too much knowledge of this, what about an algae bloom from caulerpa

[metrokat]

Hindi eh?

That looks like precipitate to me. But not sure why it would kill the fish unless there was a sudden lack of oxygen for some reason.

[righttirefire]

Could it be a stray current? Failed heater? Or would that be taking its toll on the corals too?

[ManGups]

Any spray, perfume, cleaners, anything used today? Was anything put into the tank by mistake by the toddler I hear? anything you can think of? I cant really tell from the pictures. Any lotion on the hands that went into the tank for anything? A spawning event of any kind? bacterial bloom? Do you have a fuge, anything happen there?

Tank is high enough that a toddler cannot reach it. I make is a point to wash my hands if I put my hand in tank. Anyway I have not

Put my hand close to the water in the tank since last Saturday i.e. When I last did water change.

 

Bacterial bloom unlikely.. Not sure though how that will be possible?

That tank an AIO .. Only think is I have cheato in the middle chamber .. No sand or rock. Cheato is nice and even green colored in Saturday when I changed water.

[hey]

parameter spike would be my guess, lots of dead snails in the 2nd vid or i assume as they were all upside down in the sand. Usually the first to go when a param spikes in my experience.

[ManGups]

Without too much knowledge of this, what about an algae bloom from caulerpa

Don't have any other macro other than chato so not sure it is bacterial bloom.

 

I am also 1000 miles away from home so cannot say. I will be back home Thursday so that is only when I can say anything on a bacterial bloom? How do u find out if there was a bacterial bloom ?

Hindi eh?

That looks like precipitate to me. But not sure why it would kill the fish unless there was a sudden lack of oxygen for some reason.

Am surprised that u recognized Hindi ?

When u say precipitate .. What kind ? I also don't think there was any lack of oxygen .. There are 2 mp10 and a cobolt 900 as return .. I have not changed anything other than switching from a radion to a radion/t5 hybrid a week back but I have reduced the intensity of the radion to 30% with 2 week acclimination from 50%

parameter spike would be my guess, lots of dead snails in the 2nd vid or i assume as they were all upside down in the sand. Usually the first to go when a param spikes in my experience.

Some of the are old shells I just leave them there but yes something changed .. Can't make out now. Once I get home I will be able to gauge more ..

 

But anything changed would show some PH change right? High CO2 should reduce pH right ?

NO3 or PO4 spike should affects corals first ...

 

I am guessing as much as any of u because I just have those videos to guess as of now ...

[FlowerMama]

i know it's hard when you're not home for days to be able to determine. How many days had it been cloudy? Did your wife indicate it just happened today?

[ManGups]

i know it's hard when you're not home for days to be able to determine. How many days had it been cloudy? Did your wife indicate it just happened today?

It happened today around 5 pm .. That is when she saw it. She said is was fine in the morning ..

 

If u notice the tank glass is covered in fine white particles. The water is not cloudy as u can seen from the video water ..

 

I guess I just have to wait and see ... When I get home.

[Pinner Reef]

I'm thinking it was a a Calcium precipitation event as well. Did your apex notice a sudden drop in Calcium, or any other param? I only ask about the Ca because I see it's on the high side of balanced in your sig.

 

Edit: I was looking at the wrong sig... But the question is the same

[ManGups]

I'm thinking it was a a Calcium precipitation event as well. Did your apex notice a sudden drop in Calcium, or any other param? I only ask about the Ca because I see it's on the high side of balanced in your sig.

 

Edit: I was looking at the wrong sig... But the question is the same

The apex measures only temp, ph and amps. I don't have An ORP probe.

Ca precipitation could be an issue.. But if it did wouldn't it reduce alkalinity and this affect ph? Ph shows a steady line. Also I think it would affect corals first .. I have couple of acro and monti which still show full color ..? Would precipitation cause 3 fish to die without drastic affect on corls ?

[ajmckay]

Perplexing issue for sure...

 

Do you have any reef buddies that you can call upon to check things out? Or at least do a water change?

 

I'm assuming that because you have the various parameters in your sig that you track thinks like temp and salinity, right? And I assume you've already gone over those and you didn't find anything?

 

Any recent additions to the tank? Is it possible that the fish died due to a parasite or something and that's what funked up the water? It could have just as easily been a snail or crab or something that caused a reaction... any other recent changes?

 

Good luck I hope nothing else dies and you're able to find out what happened and prevent it from happening again.

[ManGups]

Perplexing issue for sure...

 

Do you have any reef buddies that you can call upon to check things out? Or at least do a water change?

 

I'm assuming that because you have the various parameters in your sig that you track thinks like temp and salinity, right? And I assume you've already gone over those and you didn't find anything?

 

Any recent additions to the tank? Is it possible that the fish died due to a parasite or something and that's what funked up the water? It could have just as easily been a snail or crab or something that caused a reaction... any other recent changes?

 

Good luck I hope nothing else dies and you're able to find out what happened and prevent it from happening again.

Unfortunately no local reef buddieds who can help that way. I have not added any livestock or coral to my tank in like a month. I did not make any changes other than the light in the past week. I switched from a radion pro to a radion T5 hybrid. I did bring the intensity from 50 to 30% and have it accumulating for a week now. I am dining the same water same salt .. Same feeding.

 

I suspect itnhasnto do with CA precipation and probably due to Mg dropping. A month back Mg had dropped to ~1100 and I used the BRS 2 part and water changes over time to bring it up. I am suspecting the same happened? I have not tested Mg in 3~4 weeks and have not dosed Mg either...maybe the tank is consuming Mg and am not fully aware of it.

 

Btw those reading are like 2-3 weeks old for Ca. I am dosing Ca around 1 ml every 3 days and all 1 ml every days. My alk consumptionnis higher than my Ca. Ideally for 2 part you should dose equal amounts but it was pushing CA more than 490 so I posted in this question in the Randy Holmes sub forum at reef2reef and Randy did mention to reduce the dose for CA and continue with actaul consumption for alk.

 

For sure somthing sent haywiren and I suspect it is CA precipitation maybe because of MG dropping. However, I am surprisedmitnhas suchna drastic affect on fish. it could be that this fine CaCO3 particles affected the gillsnand cused less oxygen absorption. That is the only thing that makes sense now ..

 

I guess getting home and testing everything can only give the answer.

[ajmckay]

I'm impressed with your thoroughness... I can tell you know your tank pretty well that's why it's hard for me to think of something that would cause this...

 

 

I'm not 100% on all the reactions it just seems that a precipitation event shouldn't have such a negative effect on fish...

 

Here's a question... Do you run any filter sponges or socks? Do you clean them frequently? I've seen it before where if you leave a sponge/filter sock in for too long and it becomes colonized with bacteria, then upon removal the biofilter as a whole is suddenly reduced and it triggers a bacterial bloom. Bacterial blooms are mostly harmless - however in enough quantity they can severely reduce the oxygen in the water and cause die-off that way. Similarly a spawning event or macro algae "going sexual" can cause bacterial blooms.

[ManGups]

I'm impressed with your thoroughness... I can tell you know your tank pretty well that's why it's hard for me to think of something that would cause this...

 

 

I'm not 100% on all the reactions it just seems that a precipitation event shouldn't have such a negative effect on fish...

 

Here's a question... Do you run any filter sponges or socks? Do you clean them frequently? I've seen it before where if you leave a sponge/filter sock in for too long and it becomes colonized with bacteria, then upon removal the biofilter as a whole is suddenly reduced and it triggers a bacterial bloom. Bacterial blooms are mostly harmless - however in enough quantity they can severely reduce the oxygen in the water and cause die-off that way. Similarly a spawning event or macro algae "going sexual" can cause bacterial blooms.

Thanks...

 

I agree precipitation should not cause such affects on corals w/o much effect on corals. I hope my wife can find some time and get another video today. I talked to her mid morning and she says corals look okay and no more dead fish that she can see.

 

I do use a filter sponge but is like a square 4 inch X 4 inch and put it in a way that the water flowing from 2nd AIO chamber to 3rd chamber passed around and through it. I clean the filter floss every 2 weeks and replace every 4 weeks. I replaced the last one this Saturday. I also vacuumed the bottom of the 1st chamber (skimmer and overflow) and the 3rd chamber (reactor and return) this saturday. It has no rock etc - it is basically cleaning detritus and i do it very 4 weeks.

 

I am having 2nd thoughts if it is just a just precipitation. I am thinking it might be a 2~3 fold issue -

a) bacterial bloom (still not sure what and how it happens and what effect it has on water clarity - because water is clear as you can see from the video.

Ca precipitation It is very small white particles on the glass and rocks it seems - something like white sand that just got blown away on.

c) Alk overdose? not sure but not ruling out

 

I just checked the ph graph on apex fusion ( see picture) . I noticed there a ph spike on the 12th afternoon I think it is the ALK dose (the probe and the the o/p of the dosing pump ) goes to chamber 2. The incident happened between 3~5 pm on the 14th .. so the incident is happening around 24 hrs after the ph spike...

[ajmckay]

So a bacterial bloom can also leave a white residue on glass/rocks/etc... I suppose it's less "powdery" though and more "stringy" though that might be different based on the duration of the bloom...

 

I think I'm tending to agree that it may have been a combination of issues. If there were an algae bloom then that could also explain the pH spike as well... If the bacteria consumed more oxygen in the tank then there could have been a spike in carbon dioxide as the chaeto gives off carbon dioxide at night and if the concentration of carbon dioxide to oxygen is thrown off too much I think that can cause pH swings...

 

On a side note I think you should clean your filters more often. 2 weeks is plenty of time for a sponge or some floss to turn into an active biological filter. Since so much water flows through it it's probably quite active in fact. So cleaning/replacing those (esp if you do the floss and sponge at the same time) could have a significant reducing effect to the biofilter as a whole.

[ManGups]

So a bacterial bloom can also leave a white residue on glass/rocks/etc... I suppose it's less "powdery" though and more "stringy" though that might be different based on the duration of the bloom...

 

 

I have no experience with bacterial bloom so cannot comment. I guess some reading is required. I cannot make out if the if it is stringy or powdery exactly. I guess I will come to know when I get home tonight.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I'm tending to agree that it may have been a combination of issues. If there were an algae bloom then that could also explain the pH spike as well... If the bacteria consumed more oxygen in the tank then there could have been a spike in carbon dioxide as the chaeto gives off carbon dioxide at night and if the concentration of carbon dioxide to oxygen is thrown off too much I think that can cause pH swings...

 

On a side note I think you should clean your filters more often. 2 weeks is plenty of time for a sponge or some floss to turn into an active biological filter. Since so much water flows through it it's probably quite active in fact. So cleaning/replacing those (esp if you do the floss and sponge at the same time) could have a significant reducing effect to the biofilter as a whole.

 

I believe and agree that is is multiple issues Unfortunately there is no way to confirm. I will do a suite a test when i get home tonight after my son goes off to sleep.

 

I have been doing the 2 week filter floss cleaning and 4 week replacement for almost a year now and would be surprised it it manifested this late

 

 

Here is a video from yesterday mid morning - this almost 18 hrs post and no water changes made since incident

 

 

 

Corals look okay - some may have STN (need to check) but surely none dead. You see some white one on the sand there were already STN and was hoping they would recover. You also see 1 white on rock but that is so light pink in color cannot make out if it STned or shows up like that in blue color.

 

Fish - no more fish have died and it seems there are all out swimming.

 

ACTION Plan:

a) See damage

Perform suite of test for No3, P04, Ca, Alk and Mg (don't have any other test kits)

c) Clean Glass

 

I am however glad it did not crash the tank completely - lets see what we can recover. I wanted an Naoko Fairy Wrasse so maybe it is time (obviously when everything gets stable again)

 

I am going to miss my Christmas, Yellow Coris and the Long Nose hawk fish

[metrokat]

Sorry about the losses, I'm still thinking it is precipitate.

[ManGups]

Thanks Guys for all the help and patience answering questions with the little info i could provide.

 

I cam home to a bigger disaster ..Th issue is a siphon on the doser which dumped ALK (around 75 ml) into the tank.

 

Of the 6 fish - 3 were dead and unfortunately I cannot find the other 2 so I presume 5 died.

 

All Acro's have STNed completely so not sure how may will boune back, Acans, lepto, Zoa, hammer, green monti will make it I think. I have some corals which grew into the rocks so preety much they will not make it.

 

I have taken all corals which I could and put in my 6 gallon tank.

I have the doser and the containers above the tank so that may have caused it. I end of the dosing pipe is atleast 1 inch above water when the return is turned off and the back chambers fill in. I am not sure how it could siphon.

 

I don't suspect it is a doser issue - since I tested it 10 times before i set it up. I just tested now and it still works fine.

 

ACTION:

NOT Giving up yet : I will be pretty much starting from scratch so I have siphoned the back chambers, cleaned equipment etc.

I have changed 10 gallon of water and will using Secham salinity for stability while it goes through these chnages. Not sure if it gong to be a new cycle but will watch.

 

I am thinking of replacing the sand ? what do you suggest ...

[metrokat]

I'm sorry for the losses, glad to see you aren't giving up. I would just work to get the tank stable and not change sand or anything right now

[ajmckay]

I'm sorry for the losses, glad to see you aren't giving up. I would just work to get the tank stable and not change sand or anything right now

+1 I would do this...

 

As for your doser, I think a pic would help but if you have a typical peristaltic pump unit and the dosing containers are above the tank then I think it's certainly possible that it developed a slow drip siphon (depending on how much flow restriction is in the powered off dosing pump).

 

The end of the dosing tube doesn't need to be submerged to create a siphon, it only needs to be below the inlet of the tubing (and the inlet submerged). Once the pump runs and assuming no air enters the system the siphon may have continued. A good way to think of it is to never have 2 ends of a tube both submerged, and if one side of the tube is submerged then make sure it's lower than the other side (the side that is not submerged). Hope that makes sense... I was screwed over by an accidental siphon once while getting fancy with an automated water change system and got a gallon or so on the floor...

[ManGups]

I have a Jadeo 4 head unit. I think I understand what u are trying to say. The end of tube that goes into the container is submersed and it is connect to the doser input. From the doser (output) another tube goes to that tank.

 

I need to keep the end of the tube from the doser to that tank above water line but make sure that the container is below the water line ?

 

Overall I need to move the doser below water line and container below the doser .. This way I will never have a siphon since we are against gravity?

 

Not sure how I am going to make that space. I have such limited space in the cabinet of the stand.

[ajmckay]

The doser itself can be above both the tank and the container. It's really just the ends you have to worry about. If you can't get the containers below the water line of the tank then you could potentially poke a hole in the tube above the fluid level of the container. That way once the pump turns off it would allow air into the tubing and destroy any siphon. I'm not sure if this affects that style of pump or not though.

[ManGups]

The doser itself can be above both the tank and the container. It's really just the ends you have to worry about. If you can't get the containers below the water line of the tank then you could potentially poke a hole in the tube above the fluid level of the container. That way once the pump turns off it would allow air into the tubing and destroy any siphon. I'm not sure if this affects that style of pump or not though.

Thanks will have to try this out.

 

I went ahead and got a apex dos. Yesterday I went ahead and re arranged the cabinet and I should be able to stick the doser container and the doser below the water line or if not work out the tube ends.

 

My tank is fallow now. Very few things remain now alive. The last fish alive is missing too. I tried finding it so I can re home it in the 6 gallon while the m60 settles but cannot find it.

 

 

 

It pretty much looks it will go through another cycle. Hopefully some of the STNed corals recover