Controversial Fish Care. Ethics of fish keeping and tank sizes.

[BattleAthletics]

ITT bunch of fish nerds.

[Lynaea]

Someone needed a study to prove fish feel pain?! Really?

This may seem obvious, but the standard thinking was a bit more complex, something along the lines of 'they don't feel pain the way humans do, they are just reacting to stimulus', like a knee-jerk reaction. Actually, up until about the last decade pets were not routinely given pain meds after surgery (spay, neuter, declawing) because it was not thought they needed any. There were studies done to prove that even though dogs and cats will keep walking around and eating rather then laying in bed moaning like we would do, they did much better and healed faster if given pain meds, even if just for a few days. And they did have to do studies ....... in order to convince veterinarians to prescribe them and pet owners to pay for them.

 

We as humans have always had the idea that we are somehow vastly different from and superior to every other life form on this planet and until very recently we as a group have just explained away any evidence to the contrary. Figuring out the whole DNA thing and seeing how very similar we are in basic makeup has made a big difference in the way we view the life around us. Also, until the last 100 years or so keeping pets was pretty rare in the sense we have them now, animals were used for food or service, a very low percentage of people would actually have interacted with an animal the way we do or observed its reactions to its environment or treatment.

 

So, to try to get back on track ......... This all translates to keeping fish in artificial environments in our homes. Even if they don't feel happy or sad or bored like we do they still give us signs of their stress level, relative health and even contentment in a specific environment or set of conditions. We should take the responsibility to research first, not just the current stereotypes like 'tang/mandarin needs x gallons', 'acropora needs x watts per gallon' but also first hand experiences from other hobbyists available on sites like this. Then observe, observe, observe ..... You can't know if your fish, corals, CUC or any other pet is truly thriving or just surviving if you aren't closely and specifically observing each one routinely. I personally find a first hand account of how a fish behaves in someone else's tank much more helpful than the standard 'min x gallons, peaceful, reef safe' description available from commercial sites. But you don't always know stats on a particular set up so I guess we have to take all info with a grain of healthy skepticism.

[Cameron6796]

I think this is the kinda (roughly very very roughly) similar to the joke of loyalty where if you lock your wife and your dog in a trunk who is going to be happy to see you in 5 hours... Not your wife unless she's some kind of messed up. A human will show the distaste and discomfort by vocalizing it and showing it while the dog may be severely dehydrated but will recognize your face and just be happy to be alive.

[Angeles]

At the moment, I am actually in Hawaii. I dive the reef every day, and see many fish, including tangs, damselfish, triggerfish, and eels.

Just watching them swim for hundreds of feet and bob playfully in the current makes me hate myself for putting fish in a box which they would swim many times over in the ocean.

 

My theory is, no fish, not even the smalles of gobies, can live as healthy in a tank as in the ocean. Every single aspect of aquatic life is different in a tank than in the ocean.

 

I'm not saying that fish can't be happy in a tank, I'm just saying that they can't be quite as happy in most cases.

 

Corals are another story, they do not have brains, and therefore do not suffer at all. Also, they do not move or explore in the same way.

[atrox]

Tree huggers + pets = crying

 

 

If I pull a weed does it cry. What's that movie with marky mark where the tress go bat shit crazy?

 

Seriously these threads/debates never prove wrong or right they just showcase opinions. Do animals feel pain...yes, are we experts on all things fish...no. We are hobbyists who have this sick twisted urge to keep animals for our own enjoyment. Some would say keeping anything in a box is "cruel" some would say if you keep the box within "hobbyist standards" then it's ok. I like having an aquarium, and I think we all try to pat our own backs for having a successful aquarium. We beg for likes and comments on posts. For the record I wouldn't keep an adult yellow tang in anything that was not at least 100 gallons, but I see no problem keeping a half dollar sized one in a 40 breeder. Check out the blue tang in my aquarium it's miserable it just swims around and writes poetry about why clownfish always get picked before him at the lfs, and why does he always try to eat his own poop.

[hey]

Tree huggers + pets = crying

 

 

If I pull a weed does it cry. What's that movie with marky mark where the tress go bat shit crazy?

 

Seriously these threads/debates never prove wrong or right they just showcase opinions. Do animals feel pain...yes, are we experts on all things fish...no. We are hobbyists who have this sick twisted urge to keep animals for our own enjoyment. Some would say keeping anything in a box is "cruel" some would say if you keep the box within "hobbyist standards" then it's ok. I like having an aquarium, and I think we all try to pat our own backs for having a successful aquarium. We beg for likes and comments on posts. For the record I wouldn't keep an adult yellow tang in anything that was not at least 100 gallons, but I see no problem keeping a half dollar sized one in a 40 breeder. Check out the blue tang in my aquarium it's miserable it just swims around and writes poetry about why clownfish always get picked before him at the lfs, and why does he always try to eat his own poop.

 

cant remember what the plant was or where (saw this on IFLS on fb link) but there is a plant that can hear its neighbors being eaten, so it knows to put up its defense.

[ChickenoftheC]

Now im not condoning big fish in little boxes but people arnt meant to live in little house but im quite sure we enjoy living in climate controlled little rooms with our food brought to us while we are safe from danger. I dont see why fish wouldnt be a little bit happy living in the same sort of conditions.

[Lynaea]

It's definitely different on the freshwater side where a lot of the fish are captive bred, I never felt guilty about buying a fish. If I thought about it at all it would have been something like its better off in my tank than at the LFS or with somebody with fluorescent gravel and plastic plants.

 

When I bought my first fish from KPAquatics though they first said they were out of the Rusty gobies I really wanted, then later said they had 'found' one. Maybe they meant it was hiding in a rock but my first thought was that they might have gone out and caught one specifically for me, and that bothered me. I didn't have an issue with buying fish I knew had been wild caught previously because that fish would have been out of the ocean anyway and would end up in someone's tank. That tank might be better or worse than mine but it certainly wasn't going back where it came from. But the thought of being personally responsible for fish or corals, etc being removed from the ocean made me feel infinitely more responsible for their well being and being new at this I was suddenly much more concerned that I might kill them.

 

I know that may be a weird distinction to make, but unless everyone stops buying these animals they are going to keep being collected. At that point their fate is in the hands of the collectors, shippers, LFS's and finally the hobbyist that buys them. Essentially, they are there and someone is going to buy them, if I like them and can provide good care (probably not perfect or great or what they would have in the ocean) then I don't see that as a bad thing.

 

I would also like to argue that in many cases they probably are better off and safer in our tanks. Most of them will be treated for parasites, fed regularly and not be in danger of being eaten. I would say that's a decent trade off for not having as much room to roam free.

 

I also have to disagree somewhat with the 'corals don't suffer' statement above. The ones I have all react to being touched, they therefore do 'feel' things. I haven't fragged any but from what I've seen and read they have obvious physical reactions to that and need gentle care afterwards to recover. Of course, the same could be said for a plant that was trimmed back but I've never seen a plant retract and they are animals, not plants. I know this doesn't mean coral feel pain the way we do but they do appear to feel and if they die in our care that is a life lost, regardless of how basic. I'm not saying we should cry over a lost fish or coral the way we would a human, or even a dog or cat but we do owe it to the animals we purchase to take responsibility for their well being. Luckily the cost of most animals on this side of the hobby makes it much less likely for them to be treated as disposable or of not needing care.

 

Edit: I was typing this the same time Hey and ylliant were posting, didn't mean to steal or contradict their ideas.

[GHill762]

Tree huggers + pets = crying

If I pull a weed does it cry. What's that movie with marky mark where the tress go bat shit crazy?

Seriously these threads/debates never prove wrong or right they just showcase opinions. Do animals feel pain...yes, are we experts on all things fish...no. We are hobbyists who have this sick twisted urge to keep animals for our own enjoyment. Some would say keeping anything in a box is "cruel" some would say if you keep the box within "hobbyist standards" then it's ok. I like having an aquarium, and I think we all try to pat our own backs for having a successful aquarium. We beg for likes and comments on posts. For the record I wouldn't keep an adult yellow tang in anything that was not at least 100 gallons, but I see no problem keeping a half dollar sized one in a 40 breeder. Check out the blue tang in my aquarium it's miserable it just swims around and writes poetry about why clownfish always get picked before him at the lfs, and why does he always try to eat his own poop.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=FDkDVJHhNIfMggT5nILACA&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dr47MZjlI3_M&cd=1&ved=0CB4QuAIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEHqrWwKLzD9PjuucCw2zrJ_bEwpQ

 

 

[atrox]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=FDkDVJHhNIfMggT5nILACA&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dr47MZjlI3_M&cd=1&ved=0CB4QuAIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEHqrWwKLzD9PjuucCw2zrJ_bEwpQ

 

 

. This has to be the single greatest piece of cinema I have ever seen. Wonder if they cry about all the cotton plants that were destroyed when making their clothes?

[farkwar]

Old growth cotton, they do.

[wow.such.chris]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08997659.2012.747450?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed.VANEDPldV-E

 

 

Effects of aquarium-related stressors on the Zebrafish

[basser1]

Now im not condoning big fish in little boxes but people arnt meant to live in little house

 

LOL, Reminds me of the little old lady that lived in a shoe.......

 

Back in the day when I was just starting out, I had a LFS call me and said he had the perfect fish for my 29 gallon tank. It was a small yellow eye kole tang. I told him that after doing some research, I found it needed a tank of at least 70 gallons. He says, no worry, it's small and will stay that way. So.... like a dummy, I bought it. That fish was stressed all of the time, swimming around like crazy and was a constant Ich magnet. No more tangs for me, just my personal observation.

[NanoDiver]

Who's got the research that states the lifespan of a fish in the wild, because more often then not these fish get eaten by its predators. If you can keep a fish for its entire lifespan then it definately has to be happy in said tank. Most fish in the wild dont live their full lifespan. I wouldn't keep tang in any thing below 75g. Much of the natural reef in the world is disappearing and I think conscientious(spellcheck) reefers are the least of the fishes' worries

[Chris!]

My yellow has been with me through a 75g, 180, 70, and is currently in a 40B (soon to be going into something much larger tho).... his best coloration, best vigor when eating, and overall emphasis on flat out cruising all day have only been seen in my 6' 180. Even when he went from the 75 to the 180 there was a huge improvement in his appearance and how much he had the drive to swim. Then when he went into the 70 (4') from the 180 he seemed to lose interest in even trying to get a good burst in. Now, he seems to be healthy but I don't even really enjoy watching him in my 40, just kinda putts around like theres no point in living I would say he is a 4" fish, nothing huge by any means, but still its obvious he wants to break out and cruise.

[hey]

My yellow has been with me through a 75g, 180, 70, and is currently in a 40B (soon to be going into something much larger tho).... his best coloration, best vigor when eating, and overall emphasis on flat out cruising all day have only been seen in my 6' 180. Even when he went from the 75 to the 180 there was a huge improvement in his appearance and how much he had the drive to swim. Then when he went into the 70 (4') from the 180 he seemed to lose interest in even trying to get a good burst in. Now, he seems to be healthy but I don't even really enjoy watching him in my 40, just kinda putts around like theres no point in living I would say he is a 4" fish, nothing huge by any means, but still its obvious he wants to break out and cruise.

 

When i quit smoking I would walk outside without a cig and pace in circles for about 5 mins every hour for quite a while sometimes still do. Some habits die very hard, I imagine instinct even harder.

[clownfitch]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=FDkDVJHhNIfMggT5nILACA&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r47MZjlI3_M&cd=1&ved=0CB4QuAIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEHqrWwKLzD9PjuucCw2zrJ_bEwpQ

 

That makes me want to post a video on youtube in response to them of a GIANT bonfire. Freakin looney tunes!

[cthumphr]

I stopped keeping fish about 5 years ago. I too have had the fortune to snorkel and dive over various reefs. When you appreciate the way most marine fish live their lives, you realize that keeping them in small glass boxes is selfish. I've been keeping salt water aquariums for over 20 years. I can say excluding fish from my current tank, has in many ways made me SLOW DOWN and appreciate my tank more. Despite our best efforts, fish die, fairly frequently. I'm not sure why as a community we tend to trivialize a fishes' life, but we seem to. For some people they almost fall into this "bug" category. Oops I killed an ant. Oops my clownfish jumped out of its open top aquarium. Damn. I'll have to get another one. I read a lot of that in threads.

 

As a community, we can do better with the lives of fish. We can treat them with more respect. I think the only way to MAKE people slow down would be economic in nature. If fish were more expensive then on the whole, people would probably take better care of them.

 

I worked at a fish store for a while. I've seen the bags of DOA fish that come in. Its incredibly stressful for these guys to get shipped halfway around the world for our enjoyment. Many of them do not make the trip. I think most people would agree that protecting coral reef ecosystems is something that needs to be on a global scale. And part of that includes keeping fish where they are, in the ocean, and not using them for our enjoyment.

 

I am encouraged by steps in aquaculture. I think it would be a win for the oceans if we regulated ourselves to only keeping fish that were aquacultured. I realize that would limit us to a few species, but I think it would help protect our oceans and allow hobbyists to enjoy fish at home.

 

Not having fish in my tank has been a good thing. But as a veteran of fish tanks, I do have moments when I think about adding a damsel or a clownfish to my tank. I am not sure if I will ever have fish again, but if I do, I am going to force myself to either adopt a fish that someone else is getting rid of, or I will find an aquacultured fish. I think as an aquarist that makes sense and is more sustainable.

 

Our hobby has come such a long way and I am encouraged by it. But at some point, isn't enough, enough? I remember when keeping a simple coral alive was an amazing accomplishment. Back in the days of VHO bulbs, and wet/dry filters. Now we have so many corals that we can grow and frag, at some point we need to let the oceans heal and try to sustain the hobby from land with what we've already got.

[Tamberav]

I stopped keeping fish about 5 years ago. I too have had the fortune to snorkel and dive over various reefs. When you appreciate the way most marine fish live their lives, you realize that keeping them in small glass boxes is selfish. I've been keeping salt water aquariums for over 20 years. I can say excluding fish from my current tank, has in many ways made me SLOW DOWN and appreciate my tank more. Despite our best efforts, fish die, fairly frequently. I'm not sure why as a community we tend to trivialize a fishes' life, but we seem to. For some people they almost fall into this "bug" category. Oops I killed an ant. Oops my clownfish jumped out of its open top aquarium. Damn. I'll have to get another one. I read a lot of that in threads.

 

As a community, we can do better with the lives of fish. We can treat them with more respect. I think the only way to MAKE people slow down would be economic in nature. If fish were more expensive then on the whole, people would probably take better care of them.

 

I worked at a fish store for a while. I've seen the bags of DOA fish that come in. Its incredibly stressful for these guys to get shipped halfway around the world for our enjoyment. Many of them do not make the trip. I think most people would agree that protecting coral reef ecosystems is something that needs to be on a global scale. And part of that includes keeping fish where they are, in the ocean, and not using them for our enjoyment.

 

I am encouraged by steps in aquaculture. I think it would be a win for the oceans if we regulated ourselves to only keeping fish that were aquacultured. I realize that would limit us to a few species, but I think it would help protect our oceans and allow hobbyists to enjoy fish at home.

 

Not having fish in my tank has been a good thing. But as a veteran of fish tanks, I do have moments when I think about adding a damsel or a clownfish to my tank. I am not sure if I will ever have fish again, but if I do, I am going to force myself to either adopt a fish that someone else is getting rid of, or I will find an aquacultured fish. I think as an aquarist that makes sense and is more sustainable.

 

Our hobby has come such a long way and I am encouraged by it. But at some point, isn't enough, enough? I remember when keeping a simple coral alive was an amazing accomplishment. Back in the days of VHO bulbs, and wet/dry filters. Now we have so many corals that we can grow and frag, at some point we need to let the oceans heal and try to sustain the hobby from land with what we've already got.

 

 

The reefs may be gone some day even if wild collection was shut down. Captive bred/aquaculture fish/corals may all that will be left some day. There are many fresh water fish you can find in the pet store that are completely extinct in the wild due to habitat destruction/pollution, ect. If it wasn't for the freshwater hobby, they wouldn't exist anymore. It is the hobbyist and breeders that are keeping those fish around.

 

I feel wild collection is important in order to gain knowledge and breed new fish with the ultimate goal of aquaculture. It just needs to be done in a sustainable way that isn't destructive to the reefs.

[JLynn]

Ditto, Tamberav. Unfortunately, the aquarium trade is a minor threat compared to all the other things that plague our oceans. That said, there are plenty of ways we can be better. For example, improving collection practices and ending the use of cyanide and whatnot (though I realize that it is nigh impossible to do so, and of course as aquarists there isn't really much of anything we can do to change the collection process).

 

Also, while captive breeding is important, I think an even bigger problem is that even with the species that are available captive bred, people will choose to buy the cheaper wild caught fish. Now, there are sometimes practical reasons for this, such as the issue of the captive bred fish having little to no resistance to the viruses and infections that their wild caught tank mates may host, but when it is often just $15 or $20 more to buy the captive bred fish, I wish people would be willing to pay that to alleviate some of the pressures the ocean faces and support captive breeding efforts. For my part, I intend to buy captive bred fish whenever possible, and I hope to someday be skilled enough (and have enough money, of course ) to further captive breeding efforts with my own fish.

[Lynaea]

I stopped keeping fish about 5 years ago. I too have had the fortune to snorkel and dive over various reefs. When you appreciate the way most marine fish live their lives, you realize that keeping them in small glass boxes is selfish. I've been keeping salt water aquariums for over 20 years. I can say excluding fish from my current tank, has in many ways made me SLOW DOWN and appreciate my tank more. Despite our best efforts, fish die, fairly frequently. I'm not sure why as a community we tend to trivialize a fishes' life, but we seem to. For some people they almost fall into this "bug" category. Oops I killed an ant. Oops my clownfish jumped out of its open top aquarium. Damn. I'll have to get another one. I read a lot of that in threads.

 

As a community, we can do better with the lives of fish. We can treat them with more respect. I think the only way to MAKE people slow down would be economic in nature. If fish were more expensive then on the whole, people would probably take better care of them.

 

I worked at a fish store for a while. I've seen the bags of DOA fish that come in. Its incredibly stressful for these guys to get shipped halfway around the world for our enjoyment. Many of them do not make the trip. I think most people would agree that protecting coral reef ecosystems is something that needs to be on a global scale. And part of that includes keeping fish where they are, in the ocean, and not using them for our enjoyment.

 

I am encouraged by steps in aquaculture. I think it would be a win for the oceans if we regulated ourselves to only keeping fish that were aquacultured. I realize that would limit us to a few species, but I think it would help protect our oceans and allow hobbyists to enjoy fish at home.

 

Not having fish in my tank has been a good thing. But as a veteran of fish tanks, I do have moments when I think about adding a damsel or a clownfish to my tank. I am not sure if I will ever have fish again, but if I do, I am going to force myself to either adopt a fish that someone else is getting rid of, or I will find an aquacultured fish. I think as an aquarist that makes sense and is more sustainable.

 

Our hobby has come such a long way and I am encouraged by it. But at some point, isn't enough, enough? I remember when keeping a simple coral alive was an amazing accomplishment. Back in the days of VHO bulbs, and wet/dry filters. Now we have so many corals that we can grow and frag, at some point we need to let the oceans heal and try to sustain the hobby from land with what we've already got.

 

I absolutely love all the little life that comes with live rock and am considering setting up sort of a live rock and hitchhiker only tank. I assume this is sort of what you have? Do you have a tank thread or pics posted somewhere? I am very interested in how a fishless tank would look and run. Thanks

[BattleAthletics]

This thread is still going?

[gus6464]

So basically what you are all saying is that I can't put a Kole tang in my 50g?

[Lynaea]

Well, some people were saying stuff like that at first. I think we've moved on to the ethics of taking the Kole tang (or any fish) out of the ocean to begin with.

[cthumphr]

The reefs may be gone some day even if wild collection was shut down. Captive bred/aquaculture fish/corals may all that will be left some day. There are many fresh water fish you can find in the pet store that are completely extinct in the wild due to habitat destruction/pollution, ect. If it wasn't for the freshwater hobby, they wouldn't exist anymore. It is the hobbyist and breeders that are keeping those fish around.

 

I feel wild collection is important in order to gain knowledge and breed new fish with the ultimate goal of aquaculture. It just needs to be done in a sustainable way that isn't destructive to the reefs.

 

 

I agree and understand that our hobby has very little impact on coral reefs in general when compared to larger issues like deforestation, global warming, eutrophication, etc. It sort of reminds me of that movie WALL-E. The planet went to hell so the humans had to leave on a space ship (a floating aquarium of sorts?) until the planet repaired itself. But I guess I am holding out hope that with enlightenment of our world, people will get fed up of environmental destruction and start to protect areas with coral reefs. It won't come soon, and it won't come without a large cost, but I'm hoping if we keep most of the corals and fish in the ocean they can hold on for a while longer. It is up to US to get our act together as a global community. Leaders need to step in and put an economic value on coral reefs and other areas of biodiversity and species richness (they are priceless, but most people need things to be quantified in dollars for them to care). If we understand that coral reefs do indeed have a tangible economic value (beyond just tourism) then we will be on a path to doing what is necessary to protect them. I guess I'm just hoping we can get to that point before they are all gone. We as aquarists, love the ocean. For the most part, we get it. We see that a coral reef is a sum of its parts. If we who LOVE fish and coral, can't treat them with respect and do what WE can to help the situation, then what hope do we have for others that don't have this fascination with the ocean to care?

 

My wife asked me if we lived in Hawaii (or some other tropical island with coral reefs), if I would still want to keep an aquarium. I thought about it, and my answer would be YES. I would still be driven to keep a mini coral reef ecosystem in my room. There is something about this hobby that is addictive and becomes a part of you. I cannot imagine my life without a saltwater tank. So I am resigned to the fact that I love this hobby and I can't give it up. But with our advances I know we can do it better. We can all do it better so that the reefs don't suffer as much and so that our tanks become little beacons of light (an educational light) for the reefs that are dying.