Misinformation and cycling your new nano reef tank

[brandon429]

http://reef2reef.com/threads/new-tank-cycling-tank-bacteria-and-cocktail-shrimp-live-rock-no-shrimp.214618/

 

we need to make every effort to nullify that thread as wrong, or it becomes the right way to cycle your nano reef. no middle ground, call out the error posts linked there and we will adjust them.

 

*don't just post counter links from google, be specific to claims there and refute them so we are talking direct science, this is the best way to carve up competing cycle methods as they relate to nano reefs, and the dynamically unique pico reefs of smaller volumes.

 

Per recent posts, its time to make a new post where the community agrees or disagrees on cycling procedure as new keepers are being made confused at the competing offers... lets streamline. lets fine tooth comb every claim.

 

 

falsehoods prevailing:

 

-changing large amounts of water in a fully cycled reef resets, degrades, or restarts a cycle. (fully cycled being a key term, many new posters are using real coralline live rock in their tanks)

 

-That we must cycle rocks that are already cycled (how are marine aquarium conventions setup in two days? did everyone come 2-6 weeks early to setup, and cycle? was moving from the pet store to your home different?)

 

-that algae has a place in the cycling reef tank, an uglies phase we must get through (source of procedure for all wrecked algae tanks online)

 

 

ok go!

[vegasgundog]

If only Id found brandon earlier

[brandon429]

 

its fun to detail these kinds of aquarium procedures not just for painfully long reads, but because everything the masses do in reefing adds up to an algae challenge tank soon then they post questions on how to catch up... and many cannot. they then tell others during this challenge period to use the procedures that got their tank wrecked, so we need to intercept that.

 

how we cycle starts us on that eventual path to takeover, or success. pico reefs offer even less room for negotiation on procedure.

 

 

 

 

the masses who follow common cycling details that don't separate kinds of live rock, and apply ammonia only to one type, also purposefully grow algae per incorrect material circulated online. they kill off corals and live rock in multiple start overs, but they wont dare dissect how they started the tank and if the masses had cycling right to begin with.

 

 

 

lets post the claims here to replace that thread above with more specific cycling information if avail.

 

Seabass has an EXCELLENT nano-reef.com cycling thread that applies to group A rocks from my thread for example. The fact it doesn't take live rock 40 days to be able to digest ammonia is specifically why we have two different types of rock to consider in each cycle.

[Kristal]

I look forward to following this conversation!! I've noticed some arguments about how much water should be removed from a tank during the cycling process, or if it should be removed at all?? Would be great for some agreed-on clarification there : )

[Law]

From the other thread, do you consider "group A" rocks to be live rock?

[brandon429]

I must consider them to be one of two types, the group A:

1. fully dry and not cycled, ripe for ammonia blasting and non api testing and 40 days or so to be ready depending on Dr Tims use

2. cured fully, needing no assisting or feeding of ammonia, but lacking coralline and obvious visual indicators of bacteria presence. you can digest test this kind of unverified rock, since the animals that would be killed from ammonia aren't there.

 

 

Group B rocks are just obvious they've been underwater, that's the difference. You don't have to ammonia test them, or feed the bac to prevent uncycling as the masses claim.

 

Unless we got ripped off and sold painted fake rock (uncommon) the rocks are the same regardless of what tank they're moved to, and this is why marine aquarium conventions don't have to convene 40 days earlier to set up half a mil in reef tanks for the display.

 

if someone absolutely cannot be sure what kind of rock they have, we show the single 1 test that determines cycle status, ammonia and not any other param.

 

 

Having to distinguish between two kinds of rock, and literally opposite uses for ammonia between them, is what constitutes cycling for todays science and not the science from 15 yrs ago that originally said pico reefs can't run long term or grow sps. we need updated info heh

 

thanks for posting and keeping the conversation going.

 

Kristal, this is the longest running three gallon tank on the web, how much % did he change?

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/180570-el-fabs-simple-guide-to-pico-tanks/

 

-though its the longest 3 gallon, its 1/3 as old as the oldest pico, which does things differently to have not died 7 yrs ago lol at age three. funny hint about water changes and what is proven vs guessing. for El Fab to get three years on 50% changes was very good for 2008. but what we do now is so far beyond that, even that link is dated. The refugium added had nothing to do with his success, it certainly didn't prevent his tank from crashing due to cyano (recall that sandbed rinse thread we posted and how that translates into lifespan in smaller tanks)

[brandon429]

http://reef2reef.com/threads/is-only-part-of-my-tank-cycling.253556/#post-3011725

 

Kristal

 

That guys thread is a carbon copy to your new tank in every possible way except gallons. Look how similar your rocks are to his. Obvious group B

 

Knowing when a cycle is complete is why we are dissecting claims.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/379391-how-to-get-rid-of-ammonium-in-reef-tank/

A false test reading. Matured group b rocks pictured.
 

 

false api reading, compared w other testers

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/1-month-of-cycling-high-ammonia.299601/

 

 

Here is false api ammionia reading, in 16 month matured tank:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25124555#post25124555

[Law]

The thing is, not everyone want to use "live" rocks (group , with critters and sponges on them, in fear of introducing pests in their new tank.

 

What most people use is "cured" rocks (some LFS label these as live rocks) or dry.

Cured rocks is just dry submerged in water for a while. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's cycled since nothing was used to start up the cycling process in the first place. Having coralline also doesn't necessarily mean that the rock is cycled. If you can't see any living critters on the rock, it's always a good idea to dose ammonia.

 

As for water changes, you can do 100% if you want but it's only safe to do that for Pico tanks since it's easier to keep the rocks wet. As long as you keep the rocks wet, it shouldn't restart your cycle.

[brandon429]

Post a link where coralline on a rock doesn't indicate full bac ability (coralline indicates time submerged, nutrients, and seeding conditions marine bac require)

 

 

This thread must have links not just claims, my whole cycle thread above is based on opposite info

 

 

To nullify any aspect of it, list the specific claim post number that's wrong. So far the claim as I understand is coralline doesn't indicate cycling but a multi page proof thread says it does, need your links.

 

My links show work in others tanks using the skip cycle method. Many. A lot of death occurs when skip cycling is done wrong

[brandon429]

Will cover other points you mentioned too, appreciate the dialogue

 

I asked for a challenge thread and those are everyone's doubt, valid. Need links for your take

[brandon429]

http://reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

how does that thread reflect on cycling control, prediction, replication among tanks? we don't use coralline as much there because we are already working with known aged tanks (which have coralline) but the overall intent is to press to see if we seem to be guessing at any stage of tank tear down/re assembly in that thread...any form of hesitation detectable?

both of my links are about cycling control, and setting care boundaries for the aquarium, its not the only way. just one heck of a repeatable way

here's something about safety in large tank big water changes, more links to the counter:

https://reefbuilders.com/2013/05/21/fix-fish-tank-reef-aquarium-problems-95-water/

[CronicReefer]

I'm so glad you posted this brandon. Hopefully people will understand the cycling process better as I have seen a lot of posts on cycling lately with misinformation posted in each one.

[brandon429]

I know my posts are borderline offensive bulk lol but the key detail we want to press is accountability. claims made here have been ran on twenty thousand dollars worth of living materials in someone else's tank, in threads where they can cuss me sideways for wrong calls, threads are open for inspection.

 

other peoples money is on the line in every link

 

 

this whole science is based off a one gallon tank which most consider silly/trivial. the irony there is what fuels me

 

 

Tie-ins so far: no edits to original thread made, but we want to very badly. we think that cycles are so predictable we can name the date one will comply, and you can bank on that even without owning any test kits.

 

the takeaway is raw tank control. move it, flip it, upgrade, downgrade, sidegrade, you'll still have tons of coral and be algae free.

 

arguing and dissection is fun/stressful/mainly fun but its not for arguments sake. we think this evolves reef keeping -fast- to have such debates and not have to wait on books that nowadays are kinda outdated right as they are released. we are testing claims made every single day in our new ways threads.

[flatlandreefer]

 

Seabass has an EXCELLENT nano-reef.com cycling thread that applies to group A rocks from my thread for example. The fact it doesn't take live rock 40 days to be able to digest ammonia is specifically why we have two different types of rock to consider in each cycle.

 

Brandon, can you post a link to Seabass's thread?

[CronicReefer]

the takeaway is raw tank control. move it, flip it, upgrade, downgrade, sidegrade, you'll still have tons of coral and be algae free.

My current theory on algae is that while nitrates/phosphates may help it grow, there is more to it than just those two numbers. 90% of the time when people have algae problems without nitrate or phosphate issues the consensus is "oh the algae is sucking them all up so you have false readings". To me this never made sense. I believe algae needs dissolved organics of some kind to start to grow and this is something that we just can't test for so the algae problem is never fixed because the "you need to reduce phosphates/nitrates" scenario can't be applied.

[brandon429]

agreed

 

those organics are why I do crazy stuff to my sandbed, like blast it out with tap water lol. others can be more measured, the tap water is only for bio-effect, to get people out of microbial comfort zones.

 

 

when I say filtration bac literally don't die unless you medicate them or dry them out, that means they are very tough! fun to prove that, ill put my reef on the line to do it.

[brandon429]

Sea bass' thread

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/202427-part-1-water-changes-during-the-cycle/

[flatlandreefer]

Sea bass' thread

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/202427-part-1-water-changes-during-the-cycle/

 

Thank you!

[Bldgengineer]

Following this. I loved that thread over at R2R and it's what got me started on my fish less cycle on my dry rock. Still tested my tank though

[Nano sapiens]

My current theory on algae is that while nitrates/phosphates may help it grow, there is more to it than just those two numbers. 90% of the time when people have algae problems without nitrate or phosphate issues the consensus is "oh the algae is sucking them all up so you have false readings". To me this never made sense. I believe algae needs dissolved organics of some kind to start to grow and this is something that we just can't test for so the algae problem is never fixed because the "you need to reduce phosphates/nitrates" scenario can't be applied.

 

Since there are many 'pest' algae species that can do very well at the very low nitrate and phosphate levels found on a pristine oceanic reef, lowering these two can only help to limit growth a bit and stunt those species that need a bit more in the way of nutrients to really thrive. Ditto for iron as many only need minute amounts to do well. The buildup of organics can assist algae to grow, but as you mentioned determining levels in our tanks is no easy task for the aquarist. And if we go too extreme with limiting nutrients for too long, we can start negatively effecting the coral population,

 

In my experience, the best ways to fight algae are to have the rock substrate covered with desireable organisms (coralline algae, corals, zoanthids, etc.) and herbivores to help control it. Much easier in a large tank since the choice of effective herbivors is much greater, but a few smaller herbivors can certainly help in nano/pico tanks as long as the aquarist doesn't overdo the nutrients and/or ignores proper husbandry.

 

As far as cycling goes, I know thiis is not in vougue these days, but I prefer 'old school' methods starting with cured live rock plus a few CUC and then letting the system stabilize for a few months before slowly adding new, more delicate organisms. IMO, there is something to be said for not rushing the process so that micro and macro organisms have time to properly grow into the system, thus promoting stability before the 'must have' organisms are slowly added.

[ml86743]

Haha the tap-water sand blast comment threw me out of my "microbial-comfort zone" ! What a really cool article, you always have some outstanding and informative material.

[brandon429]

I appreciate it very much and I also acknowledge a large portion is debatable and that's where the fun is

 

a few links to questionable .25 readings:

 

the come and go .25. the tank shows cycled, then uncycled? Surely this link collection will grow over time, keep watch.

[CronicReefer]

Since there are many 'pest' algae species that can do very well at the very low nitrate and phosphate levels found on a pristine oceanic reef, lowering these two can only help to limit growth a bit and stunt those species that need a bit more in the way of nutrients to really thrive. Ditto for iron as many only need minute amounts to do well. The buildup of organics can assist algae to grow, but as you mentioned determining levels in our tanks is no easy task for the aquarist.

I actually dose iron once a month and it causes my caulerpa prolifera to grow like crazy for about a week after. Not something everyone should do but I get great results from it. I would also agree with you on how important it is to let the little critters build up before adding any decent amount of livestock. The sphagetti worm population in my sand bed does wonders at keeping detritus cleaned up. I also have a DSB so the other various worms and pods that grow in the sand are necessary for health of the DSB.

[seabass]

Brandon, you know that you and I are in agreement with most of our philosophies. But you also know that I take exception at your warnings against using API ammonia test kits specifically.

While I agree that we can determine much without any testing (and that testing a mature pico that receives 100% water changes serves no purpose, other than confirming the composition of your salt mix), I still feel that testing ammonia levels is the best way for an untrained eye to determine if any tank is ready for livestock (although there are usually visual clues for group B rocks).

As for API ammonia kits being inaccurate, you once agreed to try one out and report your findings. Now granted, I don't test ammonia in my tanks that have an established nitrogen cycle (and I end up throwing out my ammonia test kits because they are always expired before I come close to using them up), but I do use them (API more than others, because they are cheap, and easy, and accurate enough to determine the presence of dangerous levels of ammonia, or to determine how quickly group A rocks can process 1ppm of ammonia). Although im not sure why people waste money on nitrite test kits for reef tanks.

Over the years, (during the initial "cycle" on numerous tanks, and for my threads: Part 1: Water Changes During the Cycle and Part 2: Water Changes During the Cycle), I've used a number of API ammonia tests and have posted pics of the results online; and I don't recall ever experiencing false positives like you say are so common. Note that I don't use Prime when establishing a biological filter. People may have difficulties matching the color chart (due to lighting, and/or viewing angle), or there may be issues due to performing the test incorrectly (like not shaking the reagents sufficiently), but I feel that the API ammonia kit is still a valuable tool (unlike the API phosphate kit, which is a high range test and serves little purpose for most reef tanks).

And while I trust Salifert test kits, I've seen three instances where a Salifert ammonia kit was unable to detect ammonium when dosing Dr.Tim's Ammonium Chloride. While Salifert might be a better choice for group B rocks, it appears that there MIGHT be a problem using it when dosing ammonium chloride.

My other issue with your post might be that you mention using raw shrimp as an ammonia source. And while you correctly point out that ammonium chloride is a cleaner option, I feel that too many reefers start off on the wrong foot by "ghost feeding" their tank to provide an ammonia source. Raw shrimp and/or other food introduces phosphate and organics which are not required for establishing a biological filter, and can potentially cause problems down the road.

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I think part of the problem is we're trying to describe a relatively complex biological system with rules of thumbs and best practices. I believe that the reason we're seeing this question so often is because nobody talks about what the "cycle" even is; we just spout the tired "wait four weeks for the cycle to complete before adding livestock." and we send the new reefers on their way. In part, this might be due to the "I want it now" mentality we have in our culture, and I'm sure there are more than a few reefers who don't want to understand the cycle, they just want to know when they can add fish.

 

At the end of the day, the term "cycle" or "cycle a tank" really just means making sure the tank can support life by quickly and efficiently processing ammonia to nitrate. I think if we want to make a dent in this perceived problem, we need to be really clear about hitting home the fundamentals. Advanced topics of cycling are good discussion, but perhaps unnecessary and distracting noise for new reefers whose heads have been stuffed full of misinformation and voodoo science regarding the cycle.

 

Perhaps we need guidelines for each type of rock. Maybe one for dry rock, one for live rock from a local source that hasn't experienced much die-off, and one for shipped live rock that has been out of the water for a few days, and likely has had a good bit of die-off.