Should I start dosing? And add chaeto?

[cal1319]

Hi everyone! My tank is going on two weeks. It is a 15g column and has 20lbs rock and 20lbs sand. I know cycling is going on. I noticed phosphates are starting to rise. Should I get some chaeto? Is it to early to put it in the fuge? Also I have noticed my calcium is dropping. Should I start to dose or should I give the tank a few more weeks to see were the water goes? Please see my values below. Any input would be great!

[seabass]

I assume that you don't have corals, so I can't imagine there is much consumption of calcium. I'm guessing the deviations are mostly due to testing inaccuracies. In other words, no, I wouldn't be thinking about dosing anything just yet. Try to confirm if it is continuing to drop.

 

I'm suspect that your phosphate test kit shows results in 0.125ppm increments (0, 0.125, 0.25...). This makes it difficult to achieve a target value of 0.03ppm. You might wish to find a lower range test kit that is in 0.01ppm increments. Was your rock, dry rock? It's possible that it is leaching phosphate. Setting up a fuge is one way to try and address a phosphate issue. You could also consider chemical media like GFO or Phosguard.

[cal1319]

Thanks for the reply Seabass. I have a modified AC110 as a fuge. The first compartment is purigen and Chemipure then the next right now is filter floss bit will be for chaeto and lastly I have a mini skimmer and heater. The rock was cured but got delayed on delivery so not sure what state the rock was actually in when added to the tank. Do you recommended a specific low range phosphate kit, as your right the increments are quite large. Thanks again for the help.

 

And no there are not corals in the tank.

[seabass]

Do you recommended a specific low range phosphate kit, as your right the increments are quite large.

The Red Sea Pro uses 0.02 increments. I'm not sure it's the best, but I'm using the Hanna Phosphorous Checker: http://www.amazon.com/Hanna-Instruments-Handheld-Colorimeter-Phosphorus/dp/B003UNK3I8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393247312&sr=8-1&keywords=hanna+phosphorus

[Mstefa1]

Thanks for the reply Seabass. I have a modified AC110 as a fuge. The first compartment is purigen and Chemipure then the next right now is filter floss bit will be for chaeto and lastly I have a mini skimmer and heater. The rock was cured but got delayed on delivery so not sure what state the rock was actually in when added to the tank. Do you recommended a specific low range phosphate kit, as your right the increments are quite large. Thanks again for the help.

 

And no there are not corals in the tank.

 

Question - why would you put media in your AC110 b4 the mechanical filtration?

[cal1319]

Thanks Seabass I'll have to take a look at that test kit!

 

mste I could be wrong in the placement but looking at the filter where the intake comes in most of the flow is directed down towards the second chamber... The purigen and chemi fit better the first chamber and I don't think the first contact with water is in the first but second chamber again I could totally be wrong

[markalot]

Here is more info that you want.

 

In my opinion you can't accurately measure phosphate with any hobbiest grade test kit, so don't bother. Once you start to add corals you will be battling the difference between a clean colorless tank and a dirtier more colorful tank. Low phosphates will certainly help control algae but I think you will find they also slow coral growth and reduce color and health. A long time ago someone did a test on a few acros and showed phosphates retarded growth. Just recently more controlled experiments were done that clearly showed many species of acro experienced increased growth with higher phosphates. Something to google anyway.

 

http://reefbuilders.com/2011/12/05/acropora-phosphate-growth/

 

Phosphate control has killed more corals than high phosphates ever has.

 

There is some balancing point between phosphates and color that is unknown, but I am doubting .03 is it, since that is pretty much a made up number based on a very limited amount of information. If I had to start all over again I would first try and grow brown healthy corals, then look to what I could do to increase colors. Instead the typical new reefer route is to add phosphate control too fast, strip the water of most nutrients, believing this is what corals like, and ending up with pale starving corals.

 

All that said, I think chaeto works very well for passive phosphate and nitrate control because it's natural and not too aggressive. There is really no bad time to add it, and it will happily use ammonia for food. Avoid media phosphate control unless you experience a real issue and even then be very careful as rapid phosphate reduction and maintaining too low a level of phosphates will weaken and eventually kill most corals.

[tran]

it's a new tank and it's only been just a couple of weeks.

I do not think you have to worry about phosphate, nitrate, alk, cal, mag, ph at this time.

Even matured tank do have phosphate, nitrate issues. ....

 

for now, just let the tank finish the cycling course. You just need to test for ammonia, nitrite to confirm that it's actually cycled.

[cal1319]

Thanks for the awesome advice guys! I'll continue check the ammonia and nitrites and wait for them to come back to down then I'll start looking at the other levels! Thanks again for the input!

[seabass]

Just recently more controlled experiments were done that clearly showed many species of acro experienced increased growth with higher phosphates. Something to google anyway.

 

http://reefbuilders.com/2011/12/05/acropora-phosphate-growth/

Thanks for the link Mark! That was one of the better links I've seen to indicate that higher phosphate levels might not be all that bad.

 

I guess that I'm not convinced that hobby test kits aren't helpful in determining the inorganic phosphate level in the water. Sure, when measuring down to 0.01ppm you will get some fluctuations; however, they can indicate a fairly reliable approximation. I've fought problems caused by high phosphates before, so I tend to want to keep them lower. And I'm also concerned that beginners will see high phosphate levels as a non-issue.

 

As for the link, I believe the study shows that providing more energy to the coral, results in faster growth rates. The higher phosphate levels help the zooxanthellae^* (symbiotic algae) produce more energy. However, if lower phosphate levels are a limiting factor for algae (including zooxanthellae), then less energy will be produced and result in slower growth rates.

 

However, as you provide more nutrients to the zooxanthellae, you are also providing nutrients (phosphate) to other algae in your tank (including invasive species). In addition, higher phosphate levels do affect calcification (which is why the density of the coral exposed to higher phosphate levels was reduced). We are not talking about reducing phosphate levels below natural seawater levels (0.005ppm); instead, we are targeting a phosphate level well above that found in nature.

 

I expect that you could easily achieve the growth rates (achieved by increasing the phosphate level) in the study by feeding appropriately sized food particles (while maintaining inorganic phosphate at 0.03ppm). Feeding, along with the photosynthetic reactions of the zooxanthellae, would probably result in better coloration and calcification, while maintaining the faster growth rates.

 

It's an interesting topic, but I don't believe that studies like this can definitively show a benefit of maintaining phosphate levels above 0.03ppm. They simply show that energy = growth. Of course, this is mostly just my speculation as I haven't done any studies on this subject myself.

 

 

^*Unfortunately, zooxanthellae are brown in color and that helps explain why certain corals brown out when exposed to low intensity lighting (as more zooxanthellae are needed to provide energy to the coral).

[markalot]

Thanks for the link Mark! That was one of the better links I've seen to indicate that higher phosphate levels might not be all that bad.

 

I guess that I'm not convinced that hobby test kits aren't helpful in determining the inorganic phosphate level in the water. Sure, when measuring down to 0.01ppm you will get some fluctuations; however, they can indicate a fairly reliable approximation. I've fought problems caused by high phosphates before, so I tend to want to keep them lower. And I'm concerned that beginners will see high phosphate levels as a non-issue.

 

Just on that last point. I don't disagree, but if coral health is the primary concern then we need to back off some of the phosphate fears. We are killing a lot of corals trying to drive phosphate down to very low levels, especially in new tanks. In older tanks low phosphates seem to be well tolerated, but I don't think we know all the pieces to the puzzle yet.

 

As I do more and more research I find that one of the top killers of corals is aggressive phosphate reduction. I think it's much better to have brown healthy corals than dead corals because at least you can work to improve the brown ones. I also think there is a positive correlation between people that seem to have good luck with SPS in new tanks and people who are not overly concerned with phosphates.

 

I am trying this with my 20 gallon, where I have 3 small montis mounted high on a rock. I know I have phosphates but I keep an aggressive hermit crew to keep the algae in check and I have a few stubs of Xenia that are happy but not spreading. This indicates, best I can tell, to somewhat elevated phosphate levels that Xenia likes, but still not ideal conditions. I crammed some Chaeto behind one of the rocks where it's growing at a moderate pace, and I feed the 3 tiny fish heavily. The SPS colors are good and rich, not bleached, and growth is decent but not fast.

[seabass]

We are killing a lot of corals trying to drive phosphate down to very low levels, especially in new tanks.

Again, just speculation, but I'm guessing that the newer tanks have less available food. With no food and no nutrients, I suspect that the corals are becoming stressed (malnourished and weak). I appreciate this dialog, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.

[Mstefa1]

Thanks Seabass I'll have to take a look at that test kit!

 

mste I could be wrong in the placement but looking at the filter where the intake comes in most of the flow is directed down towards the second chamber... The purigen and chemi fit better the first chamber and I don't think the first contact with water is in the first but second chamber again I could totally be wrong

 

OK, just wondering why your floss wasn't making first contact with the water. Otherwise your media bags will prematurely get congested. I have a AC70 in my mini frag tank, and inside the AC70 I have an inTank media basket which works really well. Since your still cycling, the only thing you need to test for is salinity. I believe in the set the tank up and forget it method... Don't mess with it for 3-4 weeks. You will know you are at the end of the cycle when by several indicators. First, you will see diatoms which is a very good indication of the end of your cycle. The brown diatoms will leave on their own when they consume all the silicate in your sand. You should also notice your tank smells more look the ocean and less like death. Finally, if you have used live rock you should start to see pods.

 

At this time (usually the 3-4 week time period), test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. If you don't have these test kits DO NOT go out and buy them! You will probably never need most of them again. Most LFS will test your water for free so don't waste the $30 on a test kit. Perform a larger water change (~30-40%) should be just fine. Your limited on 1-3 fish max depending on the size of the tank and your habits. If you don't want to worry about QT your fish and ick, get them early and once you have the fish in the tank don't get any more. If you choose wisely, you fish will last for a very long time.

 

Continue performing 10-20% weekly water changes. After you have more than just a few small corals, you will need to test Ca & Alk. These are very important to maintain stability of your tank. With such a small tank, it doesn't take much to put your parameters on a roller coaster and water changes alone won't support a mature tank. I recommend using Salifert tests, although I understand that Red Sea pro kits are very nice too. Mg testing is usually not required unless you are dealing with a problem or you hare having problems with precipitation in your tank.

 

Eventually, everyone in the hobby has to deal with algae at some point. This is where we start scrambling for phosphate test kits. I've only used a handful of them, but out of the ones I have used only the Hanna Phosphorous checker worked well. It provides a solid and consistent phosphorous reading, which can easily be converted to phosphate ((phosphorous X 3.066) \ 1000 = phosphate). The other kits I tried (including Salifert) could not detect phosphates at low level. As Mark said, I believe the 0.03 number may have been created solely based upon what a reefer can reliably test with home test kits. Some will argue that phosphate isn't worth testing however if you have a checker it's a reading to track and associate with how your tank is actually doing.

 

Another issue to watch when dealing with algae is nitrates. If your performing your weekly water changes and not overfeeding, nitrates shouldn't be an issue at all in a small tank - even without skimming.

 

Good luck!

[cal1319]

Thanks Mstefa1! That was really informative, as with all the other comments! Since its a 15G tall tank I was planning on going with two clowns and a randals gobie, probably a pistol shrimp too. As for corals, I have no idea yet, but they will probably all be beginner corals haha. Thank you again and I am sure Ill be back again once things get settled in. I will have to get a few pictures up too.