Evil Cluster/ Jedi Clone (Updated PAR numbers)

[milfordguy]

Okay so first off I would like to say thanks to everyone who has helped me on this thread. You guys are extremely informative.

 

I had tried to work through a rebuild with Evil, but basically the current setup with MH and LED bars wasn't working. I've decided to start fresh and do a build with 3 separate heatsinks.

The lights will be over a 60" L x 36" W x 24" Deep. I was thinking about basically copying Jedi's take on the evil cluster. The layout would look like the sketch below.

 

 

 

The heatsinks are 6"x24". I would basically be doing 3 of Jedi's new clusters over the tank.

 

Here's the parts list:

 

6 Bridgelux BXRA-40E950-B-00

24 Philips Luxeon M RB

24 CREE X-PE Blue

48 LEDGroupBuy 430nm hyper violet

11 1000MA Meanwell LDDs

4 700MA Meanwell LDDs

3 6"x24" heatsinks (heatsinkusa)

 

Update:

Cyans?

2x 48v 7.3A Power Supplies

 

 

All the LED's would be on 1000MA LDDs other than the 48 Hyper Violets which would be on 700MA LDDs.

 

The two other things I'm wondering about are what to use for power supplies, as well as optics. The current lights are 45" above the sandbed and we're getting some serious light spillage.

 

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated. My knowledge has come exclusively through research on this forum as well as a few others. I have done my best putting together a complete list, but could have completely overlooked something. Thanks!

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

Wow, now that is a lot like what I had in mind. I'm actually leaning back towards the 950's too. I'm thinking that 3 RB luxeon M's per 950 should be adequate. Having 4 CB per 950 should be plenty as well. Maybe consider swapping 6 of the CB for 6 C's or just adding a few C's.

[Paleoreef103]

That is a serious build. In regard to Rebel Cool Blues - Cree Standard Blues - Rebel cyans they are all a bit different. Most of the cree blues you get are a bit more pure blue, rebel cool blues have a touch of green too them and Rebel cyans seem to be about halfway between green and blue. It's the difference between ~465-480-505 nm light. Just using rebel cools should work. Of course, I have been thinking about something like this with 2 cree blues-1 rebel cool-1 rebel cyan per array. Just a thought though.

[milfordguy]

Yeah honestly just trying to map out the logistics of this is driving me insane. He has a setup now with a DIY MH/LED combo which I was planning on retro fitting. Problem is that the MH reflectors take up an insane amount of space and make adding LEDs nearly impossible.

 

I'm going to need to do a little more research and decide where everything is going to be mounted. His controller is an Apex which just adds another level of complexity to the build. 02Surplus is sending me one of his 10v analog --> 5 v PWM converters to use but I just need to figure out the wiring order for all these components.

 

I need to integrate the following:

 

Apex Controller

10v analog --> 5 v PWM converter

Multiple power supplies (2 x 48v 7.3A?)

15 Meanwell LDDs limited to 2 channels (Apex VDM expansion module are $100 each)

Not to mention 126 LEDs

 

I will post a diagram later today and see if you guys can help me sort through it all!

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

 

That is a serious build. In regard to Rebel Cool Blues - Cree Standard Blues - Rebel cyans they are all a bit different. Most of the cree blues you get are a bit more pure blue, rebel cool blues have a touch of green too them and Rebel cyans seem to be about halfway between green and blue. It's the difference between ~465-480-505 nm light. Just using rebel cools should work. Of course, I have been thinking about something like this with 2 cree blues-1 rebel cool-1 rebel cyan per array. Just a thought though.

The rebel CB peak at 470nm and the cree's peak at 475nm. Technically the cree's are greener then the rebels, but we're talking about a 5nm variation which would be very hard to tell the difference even looking at them side by side. Green is very a useful for color balance. That's why I personally chose the rebel C's because they complete the blue spectrum and touch into the green spectum while the Cree CB would be ever so slightly cutting into what the rebel C's are for. If I were to go with the cree CB's I'd skip the C's. If I'm not mistaken, the rebels are more efficient the the cree's as well producing more light while consuming less power.

[zemuss]

Tagging along.

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

Yeah honestly just trying to map out the logistics of this is driving me insane. He has a setup now with a DIY MH/LED combo which I was planning on retro fitting. Problem is that the MH reflectors take up an insane amount of space and make adding LEDs nearly impossible.

 

I'm going to need to do a little more research and decide where everything is going to be mounted. His controller is an Apex which just adds another level of complexity to the build. 02Surplus is sending me one of his 10v analog --> 5 v PWM converters to use but I just need to figure out the wiring order for all these components.

 

I need to integrate the following:

 

Apex Controller

10v analog --> 5 v PWM converter

Multiple power supplies (2 x 48v 7.3A?)

15 Meanwell LDDs limited to 2 channels (Apex VDM expansion module are $100 each)

Not to mention 126 LEDs

 

I will post a diagram later today and see if you guys can help me sort through it all!

You must remember one of the biggest reasons ppl are switching over to LED's is to get RID of power sucking MH's. People have been reluctant to do so because of issues with replicating the aesthetics that MH's can give and of course the outrageous mark up on premade branded fixtures. I do not believe that MH's and LED's should be mixed in any way at all. They are rivals of each other and shouldn't be mixed together. T5 is best for complimenting MH's. (IMO)

 

Now that LED technology has improved so much lately, the idea of having a MH look without the MH is within our reach. I for one believe that aesthetically, high grade carfully chosen LEDs have already surpassed MH. That's not to mention all the other benefits.

 

I would seriously consider not trying to incorporate this build into an analogue 0-10v based signal. You are right, it does complicate things and adds quite a bit more to the cost of the build while hindering you from versatility all at the same time. I recommend an arduino based controller like the typhon, storm, or storm x controllers. Going that route would make this a cinch and reduce the cost over all of the build. Now if you know how to write your own arduino sketch, you could really be ahead of the game, because then you could get the controller itself for around $35 (with the LCD) and have more versatility then you could imagine depending on your skill. My $.02

 

Oh and I just did the math, you are covered with the 2x 48v 7.3a PSU's

[Paleoreef103]

The rebel CB peak at 470nm and the cree's peak at 475nm. Technically the cree's are greener then the rebels, but we're talking about a 5nm variation which would be very hard to tell the difference even looking at them side by side. Green is very a useful for color balance. That's why I personally chose the rebel C's because they complete the blue spectrum and touch into the green spectum while the Cree CB would be ever so slightly cutting into what the rebel C's are for. If I were to go with the cree CB's I'd skip the C's. If I'm not mistaken, the rebels are more efficient the the cree's as well producing more light while consuming less power.

Have you actually used Rebel CBs and Cree Bs? Rebel Blues are definitely closer to green spectrum. Green does help with color balance especially because our eyes are far more sensitive to green than it is blue. Rebel ES Blues are more efficient than Cree XP-Es, but the difference isn't much.

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

Have you actually used Rebel CBs and Cree Bs? Rebel Blues are definitely closer to green spectrum. Green does help with color balance especially because our eyes are far more sensitive to green than it is blue. Rebel ES Blues are more efficient than Cree XP-Es, but the difference isn't much.

Ive used rebel CB, but I have not used Cree CB myself, but looking at the data sheets, the Crees are closer to green then the rebels by 5nm. I'd like to say that neither one should appear "green" whatsoever.

 

As for color balance. When it comes to mixing lower kalvin NW and RB's there becomes a need for green otherwise you wil end up with a purple over all look that most people can't stand especially me. The warmer the NW, the more green you'll need to balance it out. There is a lot of red in a 4000k NW. What do you get when you mix red and blue? "purple" while red, blue, and green make white. The cool blues give the nice crisp MH look. The violets are purely for par.

[farkwar]

I would forget controlling this light system with an Apex. Edit, or Reefkeeper.

 

And use a dedicated controller like the StormX.

 

The Apex offers you nothing that the StormX can't do easily by itself and for less money and less grief.

 

By all means plug the power supply into the powerbar for power usage stats, what else would you gain by controlling 8t by a controller designed for a much more modest(and anachronistic) light fixture.

[milfordguy]

I agree with using a Storm X or Arduino for controlling the LEDs. I actually already have the parts on there way, but this is for my smaller thank. This build is for my girlfriends dads 250 and he likes to be able to control his entire tank from his iPad through his Apex. I have a feeling I may be able to convince him to use a dedicated controller for his lights, since I'm the one that has to re-program his Apex every time he wants a light change. Maybe I'll let him use my jarduino build and see if he likes it. This would also allow independent control over all colors.

 

I've taken a second look and it seems like I have about 15 Cree X-PE Blue LEDs from the previous build, not Rebel Cool Blues. I had linked to some Rebel Royal Blues from Stevesled on accident. The ones I have on hand are his X-PE Blues. Maybe I can get away with just using the Cree blues without adding any cyans? I know you guys were debating whether or not the Crees would provide enough green. Any verdict? I could always do some Cree Blues since I have them on hand and some cyans. Maybe 3 Cree Blues and 1 Cyan per cluster? Or 2 and 2?

 

Another thing I need help with is optics. The current light spill is almost unbearable. Sitting on the couch trying to watch TV feels like you're staring into a DUI checkpoint The lights are currently 44" above the sand bed and 20" above the waterline. Any suggestions? I've never used optics so I'm quite clueless.

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

I think that because the Crees are so similar to the rebels, I don't think it will make a noticeable difference which ones you use. You won't need many C because like has been said before, green is a very dominate color and won't take much to take up the slack. I think you'd be good with 6. You will want to make sure you have plenty of CB though I'd use 12 minimum possibly even 18. Im starting to think we may need that extra CB power to even It's a little hard to decide how many complimentary colors to choose because I've never worked with such high power chips compared to the little 3w chips. This may take a bit of trial and error to get the ratios correct.

[Horerczy]

I thought you couldn't clone force sensitive beings.

 

Seriously though the layout looks pretty good.

[MeepNand]

The Apex is good only if you buy Steve's Controller Harness or make your own, so you can communicate with Meanwell LDD drivers with the Apex, or use 0-10v meanwells. The latter won't go below a certain percentage or it will shut off, so no moonlights with the normal royal blues. If you already have an Apex, use that IMO.

[milfordguy]

I think that because the Crees are so similar to the rebels, I don't think it will make a noticeable difference which ones you use. You won't need many C because like has been said before, green is a very dominate color and won't take much to take up the slack. I think you'd be good with 6. You will want to make sure you have plenty of CB though I'd use 12 minimum possibly even 18. Im starting to think we may need that extra CB power to even It's a little hard to decide how many complimentary colors to choose because I've never worked with such high power chips compared to the little 3w chips. This may take a bit of trial and error to get the ratios correct.

Okay so let me just double check before I update the layout in Sketchup. We are coming to the conclusion that the addition of Cyan would be beneficial. So maybe add 1 cyan to each cluster for a total of 6 LEDs.

 

When you say we need to make sure we have plenty of CB are we making the assumption that the Rebel Cool Blue and Cree Blue are essentially interchangeable (When I say interchangeable I just mean either would work, not saying they are the same exact wavelength.)

 

This thread is fairly recent and highlights some of the things we've been discussing in regards to the Rebel CB and Cree Blue.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/330108-rebel-cool-blues-vs-cree-true-blues/

 

 

 

And Meep I got in touch with someone on "the other forum" 02Surplus, I was going to buy a converter from him. Problem is that each VDM module for the apex costs $100. Currently the VDM module is occupied by 1 white led channel, 1 blue led channel and 2 tunzee pumps.

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

The Cree CB and rebel CB are only 5nm different, and both can be driven at 1A. The crees are going to produce slightly less light, but with these installed above your tank you will not be able to tell them apart. I would say that you could use either or interchangeable.

[milfordguy]

Alright great. I'm going to try and update the sketch by adding a few cyans. I think I've decided to run the build via Jarduino for now and then maybe go back and worry about Apex 10v --> PWM later if we decide we want to add in the Apex VDM module.

 

As for optics I still need to do some research and see what people are running with their light fixtures this high off the sand bed.

[evilc66]

Stick with reflectors as much as you can. They produce much better beam spread with less hotspots. Ledil is the go to company right now for most reflector options.

[milfordguy]

Thanks Evil, I will take a look at them. Any suggestions on "viewing angle"? I'm completely clueless when it comes to this aspect.

[evilc66]

Unless you are hanging it high over the tank, go as wide as you can (within reason). With the Bridgelux ES arrays, Ledil goes up to 70 degrees, but you won't find many options for the other LEDs to match that angle. You want to keep everything about the same (+/- a few degrees) when possible so that you overlap the different colors well. It never works out that way, so get as close as you can get. For the Bridgelux, the BROOKE-W (~50 degrees) is probably the best choice (they have the smallest diameter out of all the options too, making it easier to cluster everything tighter).

[milfordguy]

Unless you are hanging it high over the tank, go as wide as you can (within reason). With the Bridgelux ES arrays, Ledil goes up to 70 degrees, but you won't find many options for the other LEDs to match that angle. You want to keep everything about the same (+/- a few degrees) when possible so that you overlap the different colors well. It never works out that way, so get as close as you can get. For the Bridgelux, the BROOKE-W (~50 degrees) is probably the best choice (they have the smallest diameter out of all the options too, making it easier to cluster everything tighter).

I meant to include that the lights are 45" from the sand bed, and about 20" from the top of the tank. I'm assuming the new setup could be hung lower if we use tighter optics however.

 

So if we shot for the something like this it would keep the optics similar angles:

 

Bridgelux ES: BROOKE-W (50 degrees)

Luxeon M: Ledil Minnie (63 Degrees)

 

Still using reflectors for the "regular" LEDs?

Cree X-PE Blue: ?

Cyans: ?

LGB HV: ?

[evilc66]

Other way around. If you reduce the mounting height, you typically want wider optics to maintain the spread and intensity. Even at the mounting height you are at now, you will probably want to stick with the wider 50 degree optics.

 

Reflectors for the 3W class LEDs (Cree, Luxeon, etc...) are harder to come by. Carclo has a few reflectors for them in their Archimedes series. You will want the medium spot version (12530, ~52 degrees). No idea where to get them right now though. They also have the 20mm wide spot (12568, 55.7 degrees). Also unsure where to get them. These are new products to Carclo, so they don't seem to be out in distribution channels right now. You can always contact them directly to see if they can provide you with what you need. You may have to stick with TIR lenses on those.

[You_Wrasse_is_Mine]

Id just use regular optics from Steve's for the 3 watt chips if I were you.

[milfordguy]

Other way around. If you reduce the mounting height, you typically want wider optics to maintain the spread and intensity. Even at the mounting height you are at now, you will probably want to stick with the wider 50 degree optics.

 

Reflectors for the 3W class LEDs (Cree, Luxeon, etc...) are harder to come by. Carclo has a few reflectors for them in their Archimedes series. You will want the medium spot version (12530, ~52 degrees). No idea where to get them right now though. They also have the 20mm wide spot (12568, 55.7 degrees). Also unsure where to get them. These are new products to Carclo, so they don't seem to be out in distribution channels right now. You can always contact them directly to see if they can provide you with what you need. You may have to stick with TIR lenses on those.

Are these the type of Carclos you're talking about?

 

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Carclo-Technical-Plastics/10197/?qs=iofSZqe50rmYc4UP9fGBng==

 

Yeah I got that completely backwards. I think I'll stick with the 50 degree reflectors for the Bridgelux ES. Would the following ones work for the Bridgelux, I think these are what Jedi used on his build:

 

http://www.newark.com/ledil/c11508-brooke-w/led-reflector-led-bxra-c0800-1200/dp/83T0787

 

 

And then use these for the Luxeon M's:

 

http://shop.stevesleds.com/Luxeon-M-Reflector-LEDiL-63-LEDil-63-reflector.htm

 

 

 

http://www.ledil.com/sites/default/files/tir_lens_guide-web.pdf

 

I found the above link to be pretty informative since I've never worked with optics. Not much of a need for them in my aquapod... Evil had already told me about the fact that reflectors provide a better beam spread with less hot spots. The picture on page 2 illustrates that quite nicely.

 

 

If I do end up going with the regular optics rather than the reflectors should I plan on sticking with something like the 60 degrees like the ones listed below? They also come in 40, but I think the 60 may be a better choice in this case.

 

http://shop.stevesleds.com/Optics-for-3W-LEDs-3045-60-90-LED-Optics-for-3W.htm

[bfliflet]

I have been playing around with the evil cluster build (in my not-so-nano build thread) for a 300g. I was aiming for 48" to sand bed and 18" to tank similar to your configuration. I have ~40deg optics throughout given the height and using some LGB 3ups. I was reading around 900par at water surface. You have less white but more HV, RB and CB per square inch of water surface than I do. Depending on your intended PAR ratings you might be overkilling it a bit. Wider optics as Evil suggests will drop the PAR a little for better spread/mix. If you haven't built an evil cluster, the color is every bit as good as they indicate.