Ok seriously WTH?!? Red Cyano all over

[Reidallaboutit]

Hi All,

 

Started my tank on 04-o8-2018. Did a fishless cycle using Dr. Tim's protocol. 29g with reef flakes and ~30lb dry rock and 5-lbs of live rock. It's been running almost 8 weeks now.

 

Since Day 22 my nitrates and nitrites have hit 0 within 24hr or less of adding 2ppm ammonia.

 

-pH has bounced between 7.8 and 8.2 depending if windows are open

-Specific gravity has fluctuated between 1.024 and as high as 1.029 (once) depending how recently I topped off the water (next project is a DIY ATO)

 

I started getting some diatoms early on. Added my CUC about a week after getting zeros for nitrites(ates). It consists of 3 tiger trochus, 3 blue legged hermits and an emerald crab.

 

Things hung tight for about a week then I started getting a lot of diatom and more recently (past few weeks) a ton of red cyano everywhere!

 

I thought perhaps phosphates or Kh was off since I've been using distilled water not RO/DI so I ordered an API reef test kit to check Kh and PO4 levels. Phospahates as of today are 0.25ppm and my Kh is 10dKh (normal I believe)

 

The tank is 29g and has an Orbit Marine IC LED kit. I turned off all of the red LEDs and put green down to 20 three days ago. Tank is currently blue and white now. I haven't noticed much of a difference yet.

 

Also, for the past 2 weeks I've been manually removing as much algae as I can with a Turkey baster.

 

Is this just part of the "new tank blooms"?

 

I'd like to start adding some corals/fish slowly but am reluctant until this is controlled.

 

Any advice is much appreciated!

 

Attached are a couple of pics. As you can see there is some green/purple corraline beginning to grow on the dry rock which is positive but all else I'm not so sure (all spots that appear red or orange/brown are slimy algae that blows off with the squirt of the baster)...I don't know what to do....thanks!

[falcooo]

I'm far from an expert, hopefully someone wiser chimes in. BUT I would think that since you don't have any corals as of yet, you can turn the light off altogether to stop the algae from getting any worse. Also, I'm not familiar with the Orbit Marine LED but if you can control the individual light spectrums like the AI Prime, red green and white are the ones that algae like most. My red and green run only during my main hours and are only at 4%. And white, though it looks more appealing to some will cause more algae growth. My white is at 19%, and my various blues/violets are 80-120%.

 

Also, I run the AB+ light settings. 

[HarryPotter]

Chemiclean. Heehee

[1891Bro]

9 minutes ago, Reidallaboutit said:

 

 

Since Day 22 my nitrates and nitrites have hit 0 within 24hr or less of adding 2ppm ammonia.

Odd, nitrates should start rising once the cycle has been established. 

 

Mans no need to run a light at all if there’s nothing photosynthetic in the tank. 

 

[Reidallaboutit]

I will try killing the lights. I was under the impression that I needed light to establish the corraline on the dry base rock in there.

[seabass]

11 hours ago, Reidallaboutit said:

I thought perhaps phosphates or Kh was off since I've been using distilled water not RO/DI so I ordered an API reef test kit to check Kh and PO4 levels. Phospahates as of today are 0.25pp and my Kh is 10dKh (normal I believe)

Distilled water is pure water (just like RO/DI).  It wouldn't cause high phosphate or alkalinity problems.  However, your tank's phosphate level is about 10 times higher than it should be (the target level being detectable but no higher than 0.03 ppm).

 

11 hours ago, Reidallaboutit said:

Since Day 22 my nitrates and nitrites have hit 0 within 24hr or less of adding 2ppm ammonia.

You must mean that ammonia and nitrite were undetectable within 24 hours.  As the others have stated, you should be seeing nitrate levels rise.

 

Cyano loves organics (as well as light and nutrients).  Increased water flow can sometimes help.  Also, you should improve the water quality (less organics and nutrients).

 

1 hour ago, Reidallaboutit said:

I will try killing the lights. I was under the impression that I needed light to establish the corraline on the dry base rock in there.

Coralline algae does need light (as does cyano).  If you want to maintain your light cycle, you'll need to address the cyano in other ways.  Once the cause has been addressed, ChemiClean can usually knock it out.

[lobster876]

supplemental flow needed

[Clown79]

Phos is very high. It should be between 0.01-0.03.

 

Nitrates should rise as the cycle comes to an end, sitting at 0 usually indicates the cycle isn't complete.

 

It's a new tank which will encounter various issues, including algae outbreaks.

 

Main cause is too high of nutrients which is caused often caused by

 

Husbandry issues:

 

Filter media use and infrequent replacement of the media

 

Not vacuuming sand and blasting rocks 

 

Not cleaning back chambers/filters

 

Not cleaning out pumps(good to do after a cycle)

 

Then you have over feeding, types of foods fed, overs, and lack of flow.

 

If there is no coral in the tank, turn off the lights.

 

Increase flow

 

Do an extra waterchange during the week

 

Go through everything you do to try to pinpoint cause. 

 

 

 

 

[Reidallaboutit]

6 minutes ago, seabass said:

Distilled water is pure water (just like RO/DI).  It wouldn't cause high phosphate or alkalinity problems.  However, your tank's phosphate level is about 10 times higher than it should be (the target level being detectable but no higher than 0.03 ppm).

My mistake I missed a preceeding zero. On the API kit it was the lowest detectable amount of phosphate 0.025ppm

 

7 minutes ago, seabass said:

You must mean that ammonia and nitrite were undetectable within 24 hours.  As the others have stated, you should be seeing nitrate levels rise.

Yes ammonia and nitrite were undetectable within 24 hours. However, my nitrates have been near 0 lately as well (I just assumed this is because I haven't added any food to the system since there is nothing in there yet).

 

Are there other organics this cyano could be feeding on that I'm not testing for?

11 minutes ago, lobster876 said:

supplemental flow needed

I have a 150GPH HOB filter and a 660GPH wave pump. Would you recommend even more than that?

 

11 hours ago, falcooo said:

Also, I'm not familiar with the Orbit Marine LED

It's a low end lighting system that had decent reviews for a shallow tank that won't be growing anything requiring super intense light. My aim when setting this up was a "budget" tank primarily focused on biological filtration.

 

This is my first marine tank ever. We shall see how this experiment turns out....it's still new and everyone here seems to be very helpful and knowledgeable so I'm hopeful.

[Reidallaboutit]

8 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Not vacuuming sand and blasting rocks 

Vacuuming sand is next on my list. By blasting rocks do you mean pointing powerhead at them or some good old fashioned turkey baster action?

[Clown79]

19 minutes ago, Reidallaboutit said:

Vacuuming sand is next on my list. By blasting rocks do you mean pointing powerhead at them or some good old fashioned turkey baster action?

Turkey baster.

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Reidallaboutit said:

My mistake I missed a preceeding zero. On the API kit it was the lowest detectable amount of phosphate 0.025ppm

No, look again.  API's phosphate kit goes up in 0.25 ppm increments (not 0.025 ppm).  It's a high range test kit, more suitable for freshwater planted tanks (practically useless for reef tanks).

 

1 hour ago, Reidallaboutit said:

However, my nitrates have been near 0 lately as well (I just assumed this is because I haven't added any food to the system since there is nothing in there yet).

Ammonia should be processed into nitrate.  If you dosed your tank to 2 ppm ammonia, there should be some resulting nitrate.  Something isn't right there.

 

1 hour ago, Reidallaboutit said:

Are there other organics this cyano could be feeding on that I'm not testing for?

You can't really test for organics.  The live rock, and even dry rock could have contained organics.  There are even dissolved organics which haven't been broken down yet.  Protein skimmers and activated carbon help export these organics from the water.  Larger organics (like detritus) can be removed by siphoning them out or by mechanical filtration (filter floss), or by using a turkey baster to gently blast off any loose organics from the rocks and them siphoning them out of the tank during water changes.

[Clown79]

Api phos kit is 0.25 not 0.025.

 

It's not a good tester for Sw.

 

Salifert or Hanna checker, Hanna being far better

[Reidallaboutit]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

No, look again.  API's phosphate kit goes up in 0.25 ppm increments (not 0.025 ppm).  It's a high range test kit, more suitable for freshwater planted tanks (practically useless for reef tanks).

That's lame. So the "Reef Master" test kit is essentially useless for saltwater....false advertising. Maybe Amazon will refund me.

 

Thanks for all the helpful advice so far. Lights are off and this weekend I'm going to vacuum, baste, and look into a different test kit. Fingers crossed.

 

Also going to test nitrates again and see what's going on there.

[seabass]

8 minutes ago, Reidallaboutit said:

That's lame. So the "Reef Master" test kit is essentially useless for saltwater....false advertising.

While the phosphate kit works in saltwater, it doesn't test a useful range for reef tanks.  I agree, it's misleading (confusing at best) calling it Reef Master.  Their other kits are adequate (although many people choose other brands when replacing them).

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

I have an api kit that i used while cycling the tank. Once I started with having living things in the tank I changed over to all salifert kits. I like them so far. I do wanna invest in the hanna checkers because of the accuracy of them. Haven't pulled the trigger yet on those though . Welcome to the hobby though you'll like it. 

Dave

[seabass]

4 minutes ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

I do wanna invest in the hanna checkers because of the accuracy of them.

It's the ULR Phosphorus Checker and the Alkalinity Checker that people seem to like.  You'll see mixed reviews on many of their other checkers.

 

It's really the resolution and digital readout, versus the accuracy that makes the Hanna ULR Phosphorus Checker so popular.  For example, Salifert's phosphate kit skips from 0.00 to 0.03 ppm, while Hanna's has 10 increments within that same range (and you don't have to decipher between similar shades of blue to read it).  Personally, I'd recommend the Hanna for Phosphorus and Salifert for everything else.

 

But like I said, API (except for phosphate) is fine for many of the basic tests, especially if you aren't dosing elements.

[Clown79]

Tried so many kits and they are all relatively in line with the same results. 

 

They are all not perfect, not even Hanna. I've had inaccurate results with Hanna.

 

Tested the same tank 4 times within 15mins.

 

Results

 

110ppm

123ppm

129ppm

129ppm

 

I did the test the exact same way- this has happened numerous times. A waste of a lot of regent.

 

Salifert

Colour change reading can be annoying. What is the exact orange red you are looking for? Is it the first red or the lighter red?

 

 

Api

Results in increments of 1 so 7 or 8 but no 7.7, 7.8 etc etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Reidallaboutit]

2 days ago I blasted all the rock, manually removed all the algae I could, and vacuumed the heck out of the bed. Wow was there a lot of cloudy garbage settled into the bed and rock. I think we may have identified source of phosphates.

 

Thinking back on the initial setup I think I know where I went wrong. I just put the dry base rock straight into the tank without rinsing, curing or anything. Those rocks were very dusty when they arrived.

 

I'm remaining cautiously optimistic but over the weekend the tank has looked crystal clear and today the phosphates read 0 using the API kit. I haven't got a new test kit yet but hoping next week continues to look good.

 

Thanks for all the help so far everyone. Great community here! I'm looking forward to putting some livestock i. the tank over the next few months once this is totally under control.

[Sailingeric]

I had that about a month ago.  I used two treatments of Ultralife Red Slime Remover.  Worked great and has not been back.  I do have some diatom going on but it is slowing fading away.  

[Reidallaboutit]

Update #2

 

Slowly losing the battle against cyano. Finally got the Seachem Phosphate test kit. Looks my tank water is around 0.08 and guess what....that's the same level the grocery store distilled water I've been using for top offs tested at. My LFS is almost 40 min away so I was trying to save drive time. Clearly laziness didn't pay off. 

 

Now that I've found the source of phosphates I ordered some chemi-clean to knock out the cyano and a reef octopus HOB protein skimmer to clear the organics that will be floating around after the treatment.

 

For now on it's LFS water only until I can figure out where I'm going to install an RODI system (one more thing to buy and hear my wife give me crap about LMAO).

 

Feeling hopeful...

 

Tank parameters

 

Temp 78

Salinity 1.026

pH between 7.8 and 8 

NO4 above 0 and below 5  (color using API kit was somewhere between the two)

kH 10 

Ca 400

PO4 0.08

[Christopher Marks]

You found the source, that's great!

 

If you're able to install your RODI system under your kitchen sink, you could add a drinking water tank for the RO water fairly easily, that might be a nice added excuse/bonus for having one at home 🙂 

[Reidallaboutit]

1 minute ago, Christopher Marks said:

You found the source, that's great!

 

If you're able to install your RODI system under your kitchen sink, you could add a drinking water tank for the RO water fairly easily, that might be a nice added excuse/bonus for having one at home 🙂 

I like where your heads at! I do have a birthday coming up too...maybe I can double rationalize this purchase LOL

[Five.five-six]

13 hours ago, Reidallaboutit said:

 

For now on it's LFS water only until I can figure out where I'm going to install an RODI system (one more thing to buy and hear my wife give me crap about LMAO).

 

 

 

Spend a bit more and get an RO/DI with the drinking water setup and install under the sink

 

the water is good for your health, tastes great and if you drink coffeee it makes amazing coffee

 

 

FWIW, I shoot for .03 Po4

 

Lastly, once you have solved the root of the problem, don’t be afraid to kick the cyano in the butt with a shot of chemiclean. 

[seabass]

I would consider phosphate a contributing factor, but maybe not "the" cause.  I've had small patches of cyano even in tanks where I couldn't detect phosphate with a Hanna ULR Phosphorus Checker (before, during, and after the bloom).  IMO, organics may play an even bigger role in cyano.  I encourage you to work on that too.