matt the fiddler Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 most people know this- but i haven't seen much talk on this subject here... the Palytoxin in zoos.... " The crude ethanol extracts of the Palythoa toxica proved to be so toxic that an accurate LD50 was difficult to determine. More recently, the toxicity has been determined to be 50-100 ng/kg i.p. in mice. The compound is an intense vasoconstrictor; in dogs, it causes death within 5 min at 60 ng/kg. By extrapolation, a toxic dose in a human would be about 4 micrograms. It is the most toxic organic substance known!" so a few q's 1- does anyone here have any stories or facts or rants they know about this neuro toxin being it is in one of the most common animals in a reef tank? [some guy had a dog that died on RC... after eating.... not that we will eat the zoos. or smoke the shroms in the tank 2- any one here wear gloves, wash hands after, etc. or do anything else to protect themselves form this potential danger? there is a lot of different opinions in this.. and i have not yet found a fellow reefer dead. but is worth looking at as it is a health hazard.... Link to comment
birdman204 Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Supposedly more toxic types would be weeded out by customs.... But I believe almost everything in our tanks can be bad for us, I mean , the corals are killing each other...... Just wash after handling, don't squish and lick , and you'll be fine, I am sure Brian over at the logical reef isn't running around with radioactive protective gloves on. Link to comment
yOyOYoo Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 I heard a story about a guy fraggin some zoos in a bucket. After he was done he went to was his hands but his dog drank out of the bucket. within an hr the dog had died. =( don't know how much of this story is true though, but it's definately very very sad. I always wash my hands after putting them in the tank, but then again I don't put them in the tank that often, I usually wear gloves. Link to comment
Acoustic Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Maybe that's what happened to ESPI. Link to comment
LIVEROCKER Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 i've read several boks that say they are but im too lazy to pull up an article. i also read that one about the guy and his dog. Link to comment
drdrew Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 after reading up, i thought i might have a faint tingling sensation in my fingers after handling certain zoo's...but it could've been my head playing tricks on me. at any rate, i have started washing my hands after handling zoos. but not wearing gloves, because then it hinders the sensation. Link to comment
MrKrispy Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 ummm palytoxin comes from the polyps in the palythoa genus. Zoos are from genus zoanthus, button polyps are from genus protopalythoa. So I don't worry, I don't have any palythoa in my tank, just lots of zoos. Stop the misinformation!!! Link to comment
saltyFISHscales Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 so are they harmful to humans or not? Link to comment
Winter Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 the key here is to know what you are putting in your tank, and treat everything with care and respect. I have a freshwater tank also and I don't go letting my dog drink from water changes from that tank either. nor would I go randomly squishing anything in either tank. its just common sense people. research your corals before you buy them, note the risks associated with said coral, and handle accordingly. fear is the propagation of ignorance. Link to comment
BlackSumbel Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 I stuck my hand in the tank the other day to separate a peice of zoo mat from the main colony. Forgot that I had a nice fresh cut on my knuckle. The only ill effect I can report from that is that I did feel slightly groggy and a little bit heady after messing around with the tank. Then again, that could also be from the bending, stooping and akward reaching to mess with my tank. -Sumbel. Link to comment
LITTLEFISHEE Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 http://www.liveaquaria.com/DiversDen/ItemD...d=767&siteid=20 Link to comment
nano cool Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 From what I've read so far, palytoxin appears to have a few nasty physiological effects. Vasoconstriction (ie., caused your blood vessels to constrict), and hemolysis (i.e., causes red blood cells to break apart). If you search the terms 'palytoxin and coral' in the PubMed database (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f....fcgi?db=PubMed), you get 11 articles. I downloaded one of these articles which was of particular interest, entitled 'Studies on the origin and distribution of palytoxin in a Caribbean coral reef.; Toxicon. 1995 Nov;33(11):1531-7. After reading this article, I am definitely going to be wearing gloves.. Anyways, here's an excerpt from the introduction: Palytoxin ( PTX ) is considered to be one of the most potent compounds, exhibiting extreme toxicity in mammals (i.v. LD50 10-100ng/kg; Vick and Wiles, 1975), surpassed only by bacterial toxins. It has been primarily isolated from the marine zoanthids Palythoa (Moore and Scheuer, 1971; Attaway and Ciereszko, 1974; Beress et al., 1983). PTX produces a broad range of effects in vivo as well as in vitro (Habermann, 1989). The toxin acts through the Na ÷, K÷-ATPase of cell membranes, inducing channel or pore formation by the enzyme protein. Despite its high lethality in terrestrial animals the toxin occurs also in crabs (Yasumoto et al., 1986), in a sea anemone (Mahnir and Kozlovskaya, 1992) and in fish (Hashimoto et al., 1969; ***ui et al., 1987; Kodama et al., 1989) without causing deleterious effects. The present study was performed to investigate the origin and sequestration of PTX in a coral reef ecosystem. And an excerpt from the discussion: The results of this study support the assumption that PTX is more widespread in marine ecosystems than anticipated. As well as in Palythoa species the toxin was found in Zoantharia of the genus Zoanthus, space competitors of Palythoa in the coral reef. Moreover, animals such as crustaceans (Platypodiella sp.) living in close association with Palythoa colonies or polychaete worms (Hermodice carunculata) feeding on Palythoa sequester PTX. Since high concentrations of the toxin have been detected in the body of these animals, they must have developed considerable resistance to the toxin. This also applies to other marine animals where PTX has been detected, such as fish (Hashimoto et al., 1969; ***ui et al., 1987; Kodama et al., 1989), crabs (Yasumoto et al., 1986) and a sea anemone (Mahir and Kozlovskaya, 1992). Whether this involves their Na +, K+-ATPase, the primary target of PTX (Habermann, 1989), undergoing molecular changes preventing interaction with the toxin, or other mechanisms such as membrane resistance to pore formation, has still to be elucidated. However, resistance to the toxin renders its role as a deterrent for potential predators questionable. The origin of PTX is still a matter of speculation. Moore et al. (1982) suggested a bacterial origin, which has never been corroborated experimentally. Other potential producers such as symbiotic algae, which are able to synthesize secondary products similar to PTX (Nakamura et aL, 1993) and which live in large masses in the mesogloea of the Zoantharia, may also be considered. But the lack of correlation between algae (i.e. chlorophyll a content) and PTX content appears to contradict their involvement in toxin synthesis. However, direct proof that the algae are toxin producers or are not involved in PTX synthesis may be achieved by culturing the isolated zooxanthellae. Link to comment
nano cool Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Distribution and sequestration of palytoxin in coral reef animals. Toxicon. 1999 Nov;37(11):1521-7. Abstract In the reefs off the Colombian coast (Caribbean Sea) and around Lizard Island, Australia (Pacific), palytoxin ( PTX ), which has been detected in zoanthid species of the genus Palythoa, also occurred in various other marine organisms living in close association with zoanthid colonies, e.g. sponges (Porifera), soft corals (Alcyonaria), gorgonians (Gorgonaria), mussels, and crustaceans. Predators, e.g. polychaete worms (Hermodice carunculata ), a starfish (Acanthaster planci ) and fish (Chaetodon species) feeding on Palythoa colonies, accumulate high toxin concentrations in their organs, where PTX is stored in its active form. The high level of toxin tolerance observed in marine animals may enable the wide distribution of PTX in marine biota and its transport and sequestration in food chains. Palytoxin ( PTX ), one of the most potent marine natural products, appears to follow this pattern. It is primarily found (or produced) in zoanthids (Palythoa and Zoanthus species; Moore and Scheuer, 1971; Gleibs et al., 1995) and in dinoflagellates (Ostreopsis sp.; Usami et al., 1995), but has also been identified in crustaceans living in close association with Palythoa colonies and in polychaete worms preying on the zoanthids (Gleibs et al., 1995). Moreover, several fish species have been shown to contain PTX (Hashimoto et al., 1969; ***ui et al., 1987; Kodama et al., 1989). The present paper describes further studies on the distribution of PTX in marine animals from Caribbean and Paci®c coral reefs. Discussion Palytoxin acts through the Na+, K+-ATPase, the sodium pump of cell membranes, by converting the enzyme into a cation-selective ion channel (Habermann, 1989; Scheiner-Bobis et al., 1994; Wang and Horisberger, 1997; Hirsh and Wu, 1997). This mechanism of action is underlying the delayed lysis of erythrocytes observed in vitro (Habermann et al., 1981). Blocking of this effect by preincubation of the red cells with ouabain indicate that PTX is indeed involved, because both compounds possess overlapping binding sites on the the Na+, K+- ATPase. The present study confirms that by applying delayed haemolysis assay, PTX can be easily and accurately determined in biological samples. The data obtained by analyzing the PTX-content of Palythoa species, of other invertebrates and fish support previous assumptions that PTX is widely distributed in marine biota (Gleibs et al., 1995; Mebs, 1998). It occurs not only in zoanthid species, e.g. Palythoa spp. (Kimura et al., 1972; Attaway and Ciereszko, 1974; Moore and Bartolini, 1981; Uemura et al., 1981), but also in other marine animals representing different taxa: in a sea anemone (Mahnir and Kozlovskaja, 1992), in crustaceans (Yasumoto et al., 1986; Alcala et al., 1988, Gleibs et al., 1995) and fish (Hashimoto et al., 1969; ***ui et al., 1987; Noguchi et al., 1987; Kodama et al., 1989; Tosteson et al., 1995). This list can be further extended by including various sponge, gorgonian, soft coral, mussel, one echinoderm species (crown-of- thorns starfish) and several butterfly fish species (Chaetodon spp.). Animals living near or among zoanthid colonies may incorporate PTX either by filltering like sponges and mussels or by other unknown mechanisms like gorgonians and soft corals. It is interesting to note that the PTX-content of some soft corals and mussels (100±200 HU/g) clearly exceeds the maximum PTX concentration (up to 85 HU/g) of the Palythoa species tested. Much higher PTX-values were detected in predators of zoanthids: polychaete worms, the crown-of-thorns starfish (240.5 HU/g) and in the intestines of some Chaetodon fish. The fact that these organisms contain the active toxin in their tissues, as demonstrated by the haemolysis assay, provides evidence for the sequestration and accumulation of PTX in marine food chains. This is further substantiated by the observation that some fish had no detectable amounts of PTX in their intestines, but exhibited high toxin concentrations in skin, muscle or liver. Marine animals seem to tolerate high PTX-concentrations, which are lethal to terrestrial vertebrates. The LD50 for rodents is in a range of 10±100 ng/kg (i.v. injection; Vick and Wiles, 1975). On the other hand, data of preliminary experiments performed on isolated cells from rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss ), e.g. on erythrocytes, gill cells and hepatocytes, indicate that on a cellular level PTX still exerts its pore- or channel-forming activity by involving the Na+, K+-ATPase (Gleibs and Isomaa, in preparation). However, the mechanisms of masking or inhibiting the toxin's activity while it is transferred and stored in the body of many marine organisms, are still unknown. Link to comment
caja Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 Not reading all that. I just wash my hands after I've had them in the tank. To reiterate. Common sense. Link to comment
brahm Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 I'm not going to read the whole thread, we covered this a couple months back.. It all came down to Those Toxics are only POSSIBELY present in a certain type of Zooanthid that comes from ONE tiny area off some island. Not very likely to make it into your tank. Link to comment
MrKrispy Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 not zoanthus, palythoa. You can find palythoa mats/rocks online at several shops, even the major ones. Link to comment
brahm Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 me + post = brainfart. yes palythoa, Link to comment
adinsxq Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 read calfo's book please. Link to comment
matt the fiddler Posted January 14, 2004 Author Share Posted January 14, 2004 http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/showth...=&threadid=1242 a guy had a close call, with what he says are zoos.. fragging... exploded got in his mouth.. E-room, numb hands for a week... again, the common sense rule would cover this.. but wierd stuff does happen.. Link to comment
Jackson Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 So i take it when i get a mouthful of water from my tank when starting up my syphon that its not a good idea? hehe I always get headaches after using a syphon but i just put it down to the salt water! Link to comment
matt the fiddler Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 yea.. def not the best of ideas.. though many have done it with no effects... unless you know every, and i say every organism that lives in your tank.. backwards and forwards.... mucus, loose stinging cells. not the best thing to get in your mouth.. i use the submersion way.. or if you have a valve submerge, then stop it.. then open when ready to start the movement through the siphon. Link to comment
bobbyb323 Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Well, I got really sick from them. I have both zoos and palythoa in my 16 gallon aga bow front in large quanities. While doing a water change I was trying to get a syphon going and swallowed a big gulp of water. Several days later I got flu like sysptoms but worse and stranger. I had a dry cough and tightness in my throat. I had no congestion in head or chest and no runny nose. I felt like I was drugged and dizzy at times. I'd go to work and come home after two hours because I was running a fever of 103 and dripping wet. I'd lie down and rest and it would get better but I felt out of it. I went to doctor twice and spent a day in the hospital. It was the strangest sickness I've ever had in 43 years, like I said I felt like I was drugged not sick. I missed 4 days of work in two weeks and have never been so ill in my life! Link to comment
Daemonfly Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Could have been more than just paly toxins though. Never smart to swallow tank water. As for handling, I just use some disposable gloves whenever I work in the tank or frag corals. Link to comment
genuck Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 i always wash my hands before and after, but i'm allergic and don't want to have any surprise reactions while home by myself. as for the water changing, i can't submerse my hose all the way in my tank so i just stick in one end and use my turkey baster to push water down the tube. works like a charm, taste better. Link to comment
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