Low PH & Chasing 8.2 Experts only

[neuwave]

Ok here it is guys and girls. Recenty I have seen a great deal of people having low ph. During the winter time in northern homes are closed shut and CO2 accumulates, just like in warmer climates with the homes shut tight to keep in the AC in. As one example of low ph.

 

I want to hear your ideas of how important it is or not, to get a ph of 8.2-8.4 For example one major problem we hear now a days is the acidification of oceans. As we know in numerous articles that the decrease in ph has limited the growth potential of calcium based animal structure such as coral growth, bivalve shell thickness and various other organisms that utilize a calcified body part.

 

So what are your thoughts about growth and overall health of your system? Also why do you think is or is not important to change? For example Ive heard some say its too hard or complicated. But if we do so much to get excellent water quality why take the attitude as "eh its barely important". Personally I have seen a nice increase in growth with a stable ph of 8.2-8.3.

 

But let's hear your experiments and thoughts.

[jfarabaugh]

Ok here it is guys and girls. Recenty I have seen a great deal of people having low ph. During the winter time in northern homes are closed shut and CO2 accumulates, just like in warmer climates with the homes shut tight to keep in the AC in. As one example of low ph.

 

I want to hear your ideas of how important it is or not, to get a ph of 8.2-8.4 For example one major problem we hear now a days is the acidification of oceans. As we know in numerous articles that the decrease in ph has limited the growth potential of calcium based animal structure such as coral growth, bivalve shell thickness and various other organisms that utilize a calcified body part.

 

So what are your thoughts about growth and overall health of your system? Also why do you think is or is not important to change? For example Ive heard some say its too hard or complicated. But if we do so much to get excellent water quality why take the attitude as "eh its barely important". Personally I have seen a nice increase in growth with a stable ph of 8.2-8.3.

 

But let's hear your experiments and thoughts.

 

In my experience if you focus on stable alk, ca, and mag (and by stable I mean daily automated dosing) along with good aeration of your water (usually through a good skimmer) your PH will stay in a acceptable range.

I was never able to get above 8.1 at best and would try to do all this crap to bring it up. I read some different threads and ditched the PH monitor and focused on stable water parameters and my SPS and LPS growth is very very good.

IMHO ditch the PH probe unless you need to monitor it for some reason.

my .02

[neuwave]

I agree stable water is best but just as we shoot for Ca around 420-450, mag 1300 and alk around 9. Why would you consider ph less important to the others?

[blasterman]

If you want a higher pH and have better growth in a certain range then raise it - That's what kalk is for. Easy enough to bring pH up .1 or so safely over a couple days.

 

What throws a wrench in a lot of this is I know a lot of reefers running reactors and have glorious SPS growth while running a pH so low it would scare many of us (including Greenpeace) to death. Still looking for a definitive answer to that one.

[neuwave]

If you want a higher pH and have better growth in a certain range then raise it - That's what kalk is for. Easy enough to bring pH up .1 or so safely over a couple days.

 

What throws a wrench in a lot of this is I know a lot of reefers running reactors and have glorious SPS growth while running a pH so low it would scare many of us (including Greenpeace) to death. Still looking for a definitive answer to that one.

 

 

I have zero problem with ph, as I have solved that ages ago. I have so many methods of raising ph from reverse lights on a fuge, to DIY CO2 scrubber, to Kalk and etc. I have also witnessed some beautiful sps tanks with lower ph with great growth. But what do think the growth potential for all your marine life would be if was at a proper ph? Do we just settle and get good growth or do we achieve e a higher one for a higher quality growth rate and better water quality?

[blasterman]

The optimum growth conditions for softies in my tank (zoas, palys, etc) are quite a bit different than what my SPS want. The former just want iodine and manure dumped in the tank and don't seem to care about pH (as long as there's some calcium around).

 

Given that pH is a reflection of numerous water params that often only exist in captive environments it's tough to draw a line in the sand and say 'this-x' is optimum.

[Deckoz2302]

Ph affects the supersaturation capability of the water. Try to hold ~12.5dKH and ~470 calc @ 8.1pH. Won't happen, best you may get is unbalanced higher range 470 calc & 9-10dkh, or 400-420calc & 12dkh. But if you Bring the pH upto like 8.25-8.3 you can acheive a higher balance without precipitation. This only really applies to your question if your trying to hold higher then NSW params for faster growth via higher USABLE disolved elements. Otherwise pH doesn't really affect anything aside from swinging. Just my thoughts.

[neuwave]

The optimum growth conditions for softies in my tank (zoas, palys, etc) are quite a bit different than what my SPS want. The former just want iodine and manure dumped in the tank and don't seem to care about pH (as long as there's some calcium around).

 

Given that pH is a reflection of numerous water params that often only exist in captive environments it's tough to draw a line in the sand and say 'this-x' is optimum.

 

Exactly the direction I was doing in. As most know our softies, lps, and sps like different conditions. There has to be a sweet spot where all can grow at a good rate without sacrificing certain species for anther. I'm thinking ph may have something to do with it. Continue below to what decko said.

 

 

Ph affects the supersaturation capability of the water. Try to hold ~12.5dKH and ~470 calc @ 8.1pH. Won't happen, best you may get is unbalanced higher range 470 calc & 9-10dkh, or 400-420calc & 12dkh. But if you Bring the pH upto like 8.25-8.3 you can acheive a higher balance without precipitation. This only really applies to your question if your trying to hold higher then NSW params for faster growth via higher USABLE disolved elements. Otherwise pH doesn't really affect anything aside from swinging. Just my thoughts.

 

 

So what if the dkh stays at 9-10ish at most and along with a higher ph would improve the capabilities of lower dkh but keep the same growth in sps. But the slightly lower dkh (12 to 9.5)which would keep lps and softies happier in the sense of the word. Maybe this means nothing but I lowered the alk to 9 and raised the ph to 8.3-.4 and continued to get nice sps growth and better colors in my lps/mushies. Just an observation. My calc has hovered around 450 and mag at 1350 just in case your wondering the rest of the equation. I've seen way to may reefers loosing their softies/lps when they go high sps.

This is just a thought.

[mrg02d]

Exactly the direction I was doing in. As most know our softies, lps, and sps like different conditions. There has to be a sweet spot where all can grow at a good rate without sacrificing certain species for anther. I'm thinking ph may have something to do with it. Continue below to what decko said.

 

 

 

 

 

So what if the dkh stays at 9-10ish at most and along with a higher ph would improve the capabilities of lower dkh but keep the same growth in sps. But the slightly lower dkh (12 to 9.5)which would keep lps and softies happier in the sense of the word. Maybe this means nothing but I lowered the alk to 9 and raised the ph to 8.3-.4 and continued to get nice sps growth and better colors in my lps/mushies. Just an observation. My calc has hovered around 450 and mag at 1350 just in case your wondering the rest of the equation. I've seen way to may reefers loosing their softies/lps when they go high sps.

This is just a thought.

 

Don't alot of Lps and softies like higher nutrient tanks? More sps probably means less nutrients and that could explain a decline in Lps and softies.

 

Matt

[Deckoz2302]

Exactly the direction I was doing in. As most know our softies, lps, and sps like different conditions. There has to be a sweet spot where all can grow at a good rate without sacrificing certain species for anther. I'm thinking ph may have something to do with it. Continue below to what decko said.

 

 

 

 

 

So what if the dkh stays at 9-10ish at most and along with a higher ph would improve the capabilities of lower dkh but keep the same growth in sps. But the slightly lower dkh (12 to 9.5)which would keep lps and softies happier in the sense of the word. Maybe this means nothing but I lowered the alk to 9 and raised the ph to 8.3-.4 and continued to get nice sps growth and better colors in my lps/mushies. Just an observation. My calc has hovered around 450 and mag at 1350 just in case your wondering the rest of the equation. I've seen way to may reefers loosing their softies/lps when they go high sps.

This is just a thought.

 

You are correct. The higher ph will keep your alkalinity more stable day to day and same for the opposite with alk keeping pH stable. But above 7Dkh it really depends on your CO2 levels which change the quickest due to metabolic exasperation photosynthesis and water aeration. I can say that my softs - aside from zoanthids are not happy with the higher alkalinity of 12.6dkh where I keep it. However when I was keeping it around 10dkh and 440ppm calc - 1390 or so mag for both higher and lower. That everything was happy. Also note

 

My salinity and other params under both situations of higher or lower were

 

1.027sg

2ppm nitrates

0.01 Phos

410 potassium

1390Mag

0.06 iodide

0.15 iron

8ppm strontium

 

When I initially tried to raise into the higher range alk my phone would not allow it sitting at 8.12 - opened windows and increased flow to get it to raise. My stoney growth has exploded where my softs have slowed. Zoa's colored up intensely and are growing but not as fast as the lower dkh. Leathers are acting like shrimp and stress molting so to say. Mushrooms - dependent on species - yuma thriving - Florida rics melting- discomusa not fully inflated.

 

All in all - the pH affects calc and talk the most. Higher ph with lower params in the 9-10dkh and 400-440/50 range seem to hold a more stable threshold of dropping/precipitation while being relatively ideal for all types of coral - except NPS which I have not experimented with in this scenario. Where higher ph and higher params lead to higher stoney growth but stressed softs. And also where lower ph and lower params lower the threshold and stability of your mid range params due to it being at the peak of its supersaturation capabilities. And also slower stoney growth from the lower available levels of essential minerals.

 

Basically low pH offers a lower saturation threshold for things to precipitate out. Higher pH offers a higher threshold. Maintaining a higher pH with params in the middle range of its saturation capabilities will keep things from precipitation and provide a balance to negate ionic dominance causing one or the other to precipitate out. If you keep your main params at they're supersaturation capability and balanced Its fine until one drops enough to cause ionic dominance causing the other to drop drastically at a fast pace.

 

One thing to remember is corals use an osmotic membrane - everything in our aquaria is almost 3-5x water levels inside of the corals soft tissue. Hope that makes sense and is relevant to your question. Neuwave

[neuwave]

Thanks for your experience Decko with descriptions of your softies, acros and various other inhabitants. I totally agree that about the effects CO2 can have on a tank and people who have high levels in the house will struggle with ph. Its a major factor and most dont comprehend the changes in CO2 can affect. Here in FL we keep our homes shut tight cause it's so humid and hit year round so CO2 is constantly going up and opening a window is suicide for you and your tank. Unless you like living in a sauna. To combat that I made a home made CO2 scrubber attached to my skimmet to absorb excess CO2. Lifting my ph and allowing to keep ph higher and allowing for a higher saturation. Oddly enough when I did this the higher alk didn't affect my mushies, lps and softies. Even with a high dkh of 12. But when the CO2 scrubber was removed and the dkh was left at its highest 12 then all the softies went down hill. And as you described, that when dkh gets too high the softies and mushies tends to lack growth and health. A fluke? Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.

 

Normally when I ask these kind of questions I get a someone who has zero experience with anything but read somewhere on some thread that this is the "rule" I was they saw on a old thread. Mainly I dont follow all the rules, been in the hobby way to long and have learned a lot of trechniques.

Another thing I've been playing with is color with various elements. A store owner here in Orlando has played with the idea and his test tanks are looking like a zeovit tank. Using iron for greens, iodide for purples and blues, potassium for reds/pinks and so forth and so on. Every color has a certain primary additive. So far so good.

 

As for me I'm going to jump over the edge on my next tank with non-photos, sps, tunicates, tube & barrel sponges, clams, macroalgaes, softies, barnacles and so much more. I've kept all of them in the past but not all together at once. Hence why I'm looking for people with experience.

Thanks

[mcarroll]

Personally I have seen a nice increase in growth with a stable ph of 8.2-8.3.

 

The answer is in your question....within limits, the key is not necessarily a given number of pH, but pH stability. It's no coincidence that it's easier to maintain proper pH when you have proper alkalinity. That said, if you have a stable pH of 7.8 (more difficult due to weaker buffering so unlikely you'll pull this off, but not impossible) you're not likely to have much different experience than you would at 8.3.

 

FWIW, I've never seen advice other than to maintain the buffering capacity of your water, and that's the advice I'd give to anyone else as well. Trying to lower or raise pH directly is like herding cats (multiple moving targets) and not advised at all.

 

Exceptions like you note - a too-well-sealed house - are good to be aware of, but are A] very rare and B] may possibly have no impact on the tank inhabitants. Running the air-intake line of your skimmer out a window or door opening to draw in fresh, outside air is the best/simplest way to resolve this issue.

 

-Matt

[kevantheman35]

I keep my ph around 8.4 as I have heard that a slightly higher ph will inhibit algae growth. Can anyone back this up?

[neuwave]

The answer is in your question....within limits, the key is not necessarily a given number of pH, but pH stability. It's no coincidence that it's easier to maintain proper pH when you have proper alkalinity. That said, if you have a stable pH of 7.8 (more difficult due to weaker buffering so unlikely you'll pull this off, but not impossible) you're not likely to have much different experience than you would at 8.3.

 

FWIW, I've never seen advice other than to maintain the buffering capacity of your water, and that's the advice I'd give to anyone else as well. Trying to lower or raise pH directly is like herding cats (multiple moving targets) and not advised at all.

 

Exceptions like you note - a too-well-sealed house - are good to be aware of, but are A] very rare and B] may possibly have no impact on the tank inhabitants. Running the air-intake line of your skimmer out a window or door opening to draw in fresh, outside air is the best/simplest way to resolve this issue.

 

-Matt

 

I completely agree that stability is key. Without a doubt.

 

But I can't agree with your exceptions. I conducted a experiment a while back here in central Florida. First of all you can't just open a window here unless you like low's of 100 degrees and a chance of 100% humidity. Or you want your own personal suana that can melt a candle sitting in the porch. So AC are a must here and closed homes. A while back I asked a dozen people with high alk and low ph. All where chasing ph or just lived with the lower ph. Two people who lived on the beach were able to open their windows because of the ocean breeze cooled them off. The others borrowed a CO2 scrubber. When the CO2 reduced with either method all were able to raise their other parameters to higher levels to increase growth of their coral. Mainly sps and acros. No one had ever thought otherwise because they "read it online by, everyone else". I'm just the guy who even though I do the same as everyone else, I do read it online. But then I like to test it for myself to see what results I get. I guess it started from the begining of my reefing hobby. Everyone and all of planet earth said "You can't have a small reef tank". There I am in high school starting my 10 gallon "nano" reef, breeding a pair of clowns. I was told it was luck. I think this whole site is a prime example of what everyone says/accepts can possibly change.

[mcarroll]

I completely agree that stability is key. Without a doubt.

 

But I can't agree with your exceptions. I conducted a experiment a while back here in central Florida. First of all you can't just open a window here unless you like low's of 100 degrees and a chance of 100% humidity. Or you want your own personal suana that can melt a candle sitting in the porch. So AC are a must here and closed homes. A while back I asked a dozen people with high alk and low ph. All where chasing ph or just lived with the lower ph. Two people who lived on the beach were able to open their windows because of the ocean breeze cooled them off. The others borrowed a CO2 scrubber. When the CO2 reduced with either method all were able to raise their other parameters to higher levels to increase growth of their coral. Mainly sps and acros. No one had ever thought otherwise because they "read it online by, everyone else". I'm just the guy who even though I do the same as everyone else, I do read it online. But then I like to test it for myself to see what results I get. I guess it started from the begining of my reefing hobby. Everyone and all of planet earth said "You can't have a small reef tank". There I am in high school starting my 10 gallon "nano" reef, breeding a pair of clowns. I was told it was luck. I think this whole site is a prime example of what everyone says/accepts can possibly change.

 

I really agree with most of what you said, but....I've talked to hundreds and worked in depth with several dozens of reefers as part of my job....which certainly doesn't mean I've been everywhere (we might get 30 to 60 "open window days" a year here, but almost everyone keeps their windows shut year round here too) or spoken to everyone by any stretch, but I can say with certainty that in-house CO2 saturation is not a common problem among reefers. It is the exception. Your knowing a dozen people with both high alk and low pH as well as problems that related is a feat unto itself! Good data!

 

I will also say that with some creative thinking there are definitely ways to bring in outside air through one's skimmer without opening a window....can still be the best/simplest (not "only") solution. (Plumbers deal with this all the time, but usually for 3" pipe, not 3/16". ) An insulated window insert (foam core, or something like this?) with a bulkhead fitting (1/4" on up available) would be one nice option, but there's no limit on creativity!

 

For that matter, depending on your skimmer, it's only a slight further stretch to plumb the air output of your skimmer to the outside as well. Your whole system becomes a CO2 scrubber in that case. (This it really only feasible on a sealed skimmer like an ETSS though, I think....most evacuate air from multiple orifices.)

 

In terms of running a tank successfully with a "lowered pH" (which again can be a phantom...at 7.8, if that's the tank's daily low, it's cause for further investigation, not urgent action..do not reach for that bottle of PH UP/DOWN. ) I was thinking along these lines....not necessarily that you couldn't set up an experiment and tell the difference. After all are we talking about what pH level is natural? What is problematic? Or what's optimal? Or what's acceptable? All are going to have different answers.

 

About your experiment, I believe you. (And very interesting comparison with the larger environmental effects of CO2 buildup...definitely worthy of more attention!) So far as I understand it (IANAChemist) CO2 binds with the carbonates in the water. The carbonates not being free to be crystalized with some calcium might retard skeletal formation in some way or make the coral work harder in some way to gain the carbonate ions...I can imagine that....whatever the case, it certainly seems plausible/logical that there could be a difference in growth. I'm not sure that's to say one of us could tell the difference without having two tanks to compare though. I say that given the number of successful, good-looking tanks that operate around the range of pH you mention and the one individual I did run into that had a persistently low pH that we could trace to nothing but buildup in the house. He had a pH meter so thought he had a problem...there were utterly no (perceivable) symptoms in any of his tanks, however (150 reef, 240 FO and a 75 reef). I guess that's one potential way to improve your data set: if all your folks were high alk/low pH and having problems, find an equal number - "some" at least - who are high alk/low pH but aren't having problems (the class referred to in the first link above - primarily calcium reactor users) and compare them all. I might even pay to see the results of that comparison. At minimum very interesting in theory.

 

If a hobbyist like us had coral growth issues at hand, I would still suspect other causes/look to other solutions first before spending money directly to remove CO2 from my water (macro algae refugium, turf algae scrubber, exterior air inlet, etc)....all dependent on the particulars of the given tank, of course. Most of the low pH issues people report are actually ordinary (low alk, tested early in morning, etc), with mostly common solutions. Speaking of money, this may be something that would be of greater concern to coral farmers than us hobbyists. I suppose there's nothing more attractive to a farmer than a way to encourage faster growth and removing excess CO2 would be one possible way. On the flip side, wonder if I could slow down my Monti's a little by dosing some CO2?? I know some folks who let PO4 run at around .20ppm (that's "point two zero") to achieve that effect with other coral.

 

Anyway....if you do have a big CO2 issue, then install a CO2 scrubber! (This was interesting too - had to link it.)

 

Best of luck!

 

-Matt

 

P.S. Someone else mentioned keeping alk at 12.6 dKH - that is pretty dang high if that's someone's daily maintained value. Perhaps more normal if it's after daily or weekly dosing. Around 11-12 dKH (4.0 meq/L/200 ppm) is the most usual (outside of special circumstances) recommended "high". I've never tried keeping it that high (12.6), and though I wouldn't guaranty failure I wouldn't be surprised if there were some issues...least of which could be excess precipitation onto tank hardware. Hard to predict what it could be on the "worse" end, but burning or die-off would be among the suspects...also corals rarely show good color when stressed by low alk (implies swinging pH), so maybe similar with high alk. (But why, of course...)

[Deckoz2302]

Thanks for your experience Decko with descriptions of your softies, acros and various other inhabitants. I totally agree that about the effects CO2 can have on a tank and people who have high levels in the house will struggle with ph. Its a major factor and most dont comprehend the changes in CO2 can affect. Here in FL we keep our homes shut tight cause it's so humid and hit year round so CO2 is constantly going up and opening a window is suicide for you and your tank. Unless you like living in a sauna. To combat that I made a home made CO2 scrubber attached to my skimmet to absorb excess CO2. Lifting my ph and allowing to keep ph higher and allowing for a higher saturation. Oddly enough when I did this the higher alk didn't affect my mushies, lps and softies. Even with a high dkh of 12. But when the CO2 scrubber was removed and the dkh was left at its highest 12 then all the softies went down hill. And as you described, that when dkh gets too high the softies and mushies tends to lack growth and health. A fluke? Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell.

 

Normally when I ask these kind of questions I get a someone who has zero experience with anything but read somewhere on some thread that this is the "rule" I was they saw on a old thread. Mainly I dont follow all the rules, been in the hobby way to long and have learned a lot of trechniques.

Another thing I've been playing with is color with various elements. A store owner here in Orlando has played with the idea and his test tanks are looking like a zeovit tank. Using iron for greens, iodide for purples and blues, potassium for reds/pinks and so forth and so on. Every color has a certain primary additive. So far so good.

 

As for me I'm going to jump over the edge on my next tank with non-photos, sps, tunicates, tube & barrel sponges, clams, macroalgaes, softies, barnacles and so much more. I've kept all of them in the past but not all together at once. Hence why I'm looking for people with experience.

Thanks

 

That's interesting about the co2 and your softies

 

On a different note - I run my tank similar to a zeovit using red sea reef care program which also does the iodide/iron/potassium balance for increased coloration - going on 2 months with no water changes and keeping my levels. Granted my softie health could be because no water changes but why would my sps be thriving? Could be the placement and flow on the corals. I get close to 280par at the sand in the center of the tank and run three vortechs at 65% in different modes controlled by my controller. So my softies could just be reacting poorly to - placement, to intense light , flow, alk, co2 levels. Or a combination of them all. Could be the way I acclimate haha which I don't do I simply place and go. No light acclimation or salinity acclimating. Softs and Lps get coralrx then a revive dip. SOS get iodine then revive dip.

 

I keep my params at with daily dosing and heavy feeding(its a chore to keep my nitrates at 2 lol...skimmer,dual fudge, dual reactor, filtersock - overfeed cause I'm over filtered and zoox need trates and phos)

1.027sg

2ppm nitrates

0.01 phosphate

1390ppm mag

465-470ppm calc

12.6dkh

410ppm potassium

0.06ppm iodide

0.15ppm iron

8ppm strontium

 

 

I also do not follow rules....I would be interested in your friends tank results using the elements for colors

[wyattroa]

Ph, I was chasing this for a while..I was as low as 7.6 then I cleaned the goop off the end of my Ph prob and it shot up to 8.0...Then today I decided to point the fan on my tank for a while just to see what would happen and my Ph is now steady at 8.10..But, I am not going to have a fan sitting on my tank all the time, the tank is usually at a steady 8.0...It is also in the basement where there are no window near it except a 4x6in opening. I am not too concerned since my other levels are all stable..I am done doing the Ph chasing game.

Robert