Aggressive female dragonette

[Zuzu]

I purchased a mated pair of blue mandarins from ORA about 2 months ago. It took several weeks for them to calm down and I was eventually able to train them to enter a glass jar and eat frozen Nutramar Ova. I offer the Nutramar Ova twice daily in generous amounts. When I first got them, I started by hatching brine shrimp and still feed some nauplii (mostly to the corals) on most days as well as frozen Cyclopeeze. Things were going well and the mandarins would enter the jar and eat together without incident.

The past few days the female has started to act very aggressive towards the male: as soon as food is introduced (either in the jar or free in the tank), she starts chasing the male around the tank. She caught him in the jar and attacked him--I saw some tiny lacerations in his dorsal fin the next day. He is very submissive and just cowers in the corners of the tank. She will even charge him if he is just hunting stuff off of the rock. I put in 2 feeding jars today and he is still very reluctant to go near the food. She will enter and eat from both jars while he sits in the corner of the tank.

 

Has anyone else had this problem? I thought that mandarins were peaceful and this was supposed to be a mated pair. The folks at ORA have been very supportive during my various challenges so far, but I am worried that the female will do some real damage to the male.

 

Other info:

The tank has been running for 16 months and was designed especially for the mandarins. Other fish are a pair of ORA ocellaris and a small camel cowfish. The female (at least the bigger one) ocellaris sometimes bullies the smaller one, but nothing significant. The boxfish is very peaceful. All of these fish pretty much ignore the mandarins and visa versa. I have 6 hermit crabs and quite a few zoas, xenia, a few SPS, a tropical abalone, 2 small fighting conchs, a small cowrey and 2 maxima clams. I run Chemipure elite and phosphate removing filter and have a small refugium in the rear. I just added some Purigen and a new Tunze 9002 skimmer, but the aggression started before I changed the skimmer. Lights are Acan 101 LEDs.

The water has no detectable nitrates, nitrites, ammonia or phosphates. pH=8.2-8.3. SG=1.024. Temperature =78.5-79.5. I have a MP10 power head in addition to the standard circulating pump.

 

Any advise would be much appreciated. I doubt that I can easily catch either one and would hate to have to re-home it.

[broxxor]

Sounds like a typical woman to me.

 

I kid, I kid.

 

Bummer to hear about that though. Hopefully things start to get better. Maybe try to start feeding the female at one side of the tank and target feed the male (in a jar)? That sounds incredibly difficult though. :\

[Formula462]

doesent look like a tank designed for mandarins unless its just a weird picture. (hardly any liverock)

[dday80]

Are you sure its a female? You may have accidentally gotten two males and the dominant one isn't a fan of competition?

[broxxor]

doesent look like a tank designed for mandarins unless its just a weird picture. (hardly any liverock)

 

I'm guessing we're seeing an "open section" of the tank and that there is a lot more tank (with rock) as you drift further to the left.

[Zuzu]

I'm guessing we're seeing an "open section" of the tank and that there is a lot more tank (with rock) as you drift further to the left.

 

There is over 40# of rock in the 34 gal tank and the rock is very porous with many caves and passageways between the front and rear of the rock mountain. The mountain of Figi rock is "C" shaped with the opening facing forward (although it is a cube shaped tank). There is a large swim-thru hole in the center with lots of ledges in the front and rear to rest upon. There is plenty of space to swim behind the rock as well. The front 1/3 of the area is pretty open for swimming. When I first introduced the mandarins, the female stayed hidden in the rocks for almost 2 weeks with nary a sighting. She is smaller and her dorsal fin is definitely smaller than his, so I do think that she is a she, although I wondered about that. They were 1 1/2" and 2" long and 14 months old when they were delivered, so the sexual dimorphism should have been clear.

[doppelganger]

I remember reading some where that mated pairs like to have their space during the day and often separate. During the evening they pair up again and do their little dance. I don't remember anything about aggression tho. But ya that might of just been one person's experience so I can't say for sure.

[javisaman]

I had the same problem. I introduced a female mandarin (healthy and big) to join with my male. It was approximately the same size as the male. As soon as I put it in the tank it immediately attacked my already established male. The male's gills were messed up and I had to separate them. The male recovered, and is perfectly fine now.

[mikel]

This is the wierdest circumstance that I have ever read about these ORAs. First I am glad they are beginning to send out the green (blue) mandarins...this means their breeding program for these guys are improving (the spotted mandarins are more easily bred). Second, these may be the strange traits that we have to deal with in the tank raised ones. I have a male green and a male spotted Ora mandarins and they are perfectly peaceful and happy with each other. This is really strange. I hope you let the ORA people know this. Best of luck. mike

[Ostara]

I recall reading a thread on MOFIB where the guy breeding them had problems with his female mandarin showing aggression towards (and essentially rejecting) any males that were close to her size. She only settled down when he introduced a larger male, if I recall correctly. Are they close to the same size?

 

But I second the gender check. It could just be the picture playing tricks, but it looks like they both have the elongated dorsal indicative of males in that shot.

[Zuzu]

I recall reading a thread on MOFIB where the guy breeding them had problems with his female mandarin showing aggression towards (and essentially rejecting) any males that were close to her size. She only settled down when he introduced a larger male, if I recall correctly. Are they close to the same size?

 

But I second the gender check. It could just be the picture playing tricks, but it looks like they both have the elongated dorsal indicative of males in that shot.

Her dorsal fin is definitely stubbier than his, which is clearly longer. That said, hers seems longer than when they arrived. He was clearly larger when they arrived, but I think that she is growing faster, however she is still smaller. I don't know how much individual variation occurs in the size of the fins. There seemed to be less tension in the tank today, but neither one ate much. Maybe they are finally full. Most of the references I have read recommend feeding the mandarins at least twice daily, but now I am getting some cyanobacter on the polyps, probably due to over feeding, so I will probably cut back to once daily in the jars and some nauplii + cyclop-eeze every other day to feed the corals ( the mandarins seem to pick the cyclop-eeze off of the rocks sometimes.)

 

I will ask ORA if there is any chance that I got 2 males as well.

 

Thanks for the advice everyone! will keep you posted.

[Ostara]

Hmm... at the risk of being a pest, what exactly do you mean by "shorter" and "stubbier?" Mandarins are usually easy to sex because their dorsal fins are completely different shapes. Females do not have a "spine," so if they look alike and both have spines then they're both males. The fact that you mention "hers" becoming longer makes me lean towards a pair of males, since females essentially have a little nub of a dorsal fin. Here's a nice example of a female. There's also this picture from LiveAquaria showing male and female red mandarins.

 

Did you order directly from ORA, if they sell to the public? I'm sure they have so many orders that they make mistakes sometimes. I'd confirm whether or not they're both males first, then take it up with the supplier if they are. I hope that helps.

[Zuzu]

Hmm... at the risk of being a pest, what exactly do you mean by "shorter" and "stubbier?" Mandarins are usually easy to sex because their dorsal fins are completely different shapes. Females do not have a "spine," so if they look alike and both have spines then they're both males. The fact that you mention "hers" becoming longer makes me lean towards a pair of males, since females essentially have a little nub of a dorsal fin. Here's a nice example of a female. There's also this picture from LiveAquaria showing male and female red mandarins.

 

Did you order directly from ORA, if they sell to the public? I'm sure they have so many orders that they make mistakes sometimes. I'd confirm whether or not they're both males first, then take it up with the supplier if they are. I hope that helps.

 

 

OMG, I think that you are correct. "She" definitely has a spine, just shorter than his. I will contact ORA with photos and see what they say. I found a photo that I took a couple of weeks ago when they were still friendly.

 

Boy, do I feel silly! I thought I saw some photos of females with shorter spines when I was researching this purchase, but the one you reference definitely has the female with no spine.

[mikel]

OHHHHHHH, now you show us this great pic!!! Of course they are TWO BOYS!!!!!!!! The one on the left is smaller, but could be more dominant and aggressive. They are great looking fish, but definitely two boys, baby! You need to call someone and do a switch. Girls are generally harder to come by from ORA, from my experience. Best mike

[Zuzu]

OHHHHHHH, now you show us this great pic!!! Of course they are TWO BOYS!!!!!!!! The one on the left is smaller, but could be more dominant and aggressive. They are great looking fish, but definitely two boys, baby! You need to call someone and do a switch. Girls are generally harder to come by from ORA, from my experience. Best mike

Latest update:

I was able to catch the larger, more submissive male and am returning him to the LFS where I purchased him. ORA will be sending me a replacement female with his next order.

 

Apparently the smaller male was too immature to accurately sex when shipped. ORA has been very supportive as I tried to acclimate these fish and train them. They are doing everything possible to correct the error and I would not hesitate to order from them (via the LFS) again.

 

Thanks everyone for the help. Will keep you posted when the new female arrives.

[mikel]

I agree with you that ORA is generally very supportive. They worked to help me with my first ORA spotted mandarin too. The lady name Laura there is awesome. Best of luck with your little girl and I hope she works out. From the look of the pic, I would have returned the more aggresive male and kept the more docile, bigger one. But I am sure this is fine too. mike

[doppelganger]

glad you found the issue. Either way great looking fish and hope all works out for your!

[Ostara]

Oh yeah, definitely males. ORA does seem to send them out extremely young. Though... if they were actually selling them as a mated pair you'd think that they'd wait until they were old enough to sex. I'm glad that you got them separated and that they're going to get you a real female to pair with him. Make sure you post some more pictures when she arrives so we can see her!

[Zuzu]

I agree with you that ORA is generally very supportive. They worked to help me with my first ORA spotted mandarin too. The lady name Laura there is awesome. Best of luck with your little girl and I hope she works out. From the look of the pic, I would have returned the more aggresive male and kept the more docile, bigger one. But I am sure this is fine too. mike

I would have preferred to keep the larger, more submissive male, but he was relatively easy to catch when he tried to get out of his corner. I think that I just lucked out and caught him off-guard. I suspect the other one would have been much harder to catch and I really didn't want to have to break down the rocks and go on a great chase. Hopefully, someone nice will buy the returned male and give him a good home. I sent him with his feeding jar and a supply of Nutramar Ova. Replacement female should arrive next week.

[mikel]

Yes, you are very kind to have included the food and jar (most people would care less). He looks so good that if I lived near you (I am in Mass), I would have bought him from you. In any case, make sure you have pics of this new girl for us when she arrives!

[Cintax]

Hey Zuzu. How did it end up with the new female?

[Zuzu]

Hey Zuzu. How did it end up with the new female?

 

Glad you asked. Got my new (blue) female 3 weeks ago.Turns out that the same sex problem was with the shipping department at ORA (not the folks that sex the fish) and my mated blue pair got shipped to another LFS and my LFS got 2 red males that were supposed to go to the other store. My new female, Lucy is very small and seemed very calm so I let her into the tank after a day and half isolated with the lights off. Kept the lights to 50% for a couple of days. She does not hide in the rock work, but hangs out along the sides and back of the rock and seems unconcerned with the other fish. She flits around and looks interested in food, but unfortunately, she was not eating anything until yesterday when she took a couple bites of Nutramar Ova. She actually went into the glass jar with Desi and ate 2 bites, then hung out for around 5 minutes after he left before she left her self. I am target feeding her Nurtamar Ova, Cyclop-eeze, Spectrum pellets and nauplii daily without much success. She is very thin with a definite concavity to her belly. Since she took a few bites yesterday, I am hoping that she will start to eat better and pick up weight. Desi is being a real gentleman to her and he is so fat, I am not worried that he is eating too well. I have put a trememdous amount of time and worry into these fish, so I can understand people's frustration with getting these expensive fish to eat. I am surprized that she shows no interest in hunting or the live brine shrimp. Hopefully we are over the hump and she will start to gain weight. I will post a photo of the (hopefully happy) couple when I think that the camera won't scare her.

[dday80]

Hey Zuzu,

 

Glad to hear we figured out the issue with a positive outcome. I tried the ORA mandarin, but got restationed and had to sell him. I can relate with the worry, they are a high maintanence fish. Good luck with your new female.

[Cintax]

Glad to her she made it and that she is starting to eat. She doesn't even take pods? I hope she eats soon too. It's sad when they won't.