20g L Nano - Returning to saltwater

[MrLang]

First off - hello! I am new to the forum and saltwater but not new to forums or animals. In my course of preliminary research this forum seems active and promising and focused where I will be focused - nano reef tanks. Looking forward to learning from you all and I hope to become an active contributor some day.

 

I'm returning to Saltwater after a 10 year hiatus. I had a 20 Tall tank in college and after my roommate neglected to pay the electric bill during a blizzard and my whole tank perished, I was reluctant to try to recover. So here I am - not quite totally new but I have a more active internet community, larger revenue stream, and much more patience than before. I think it's going to be a success.

 

Here are my thoughts so far - looking for criticism and suggestions. Build is going to be 20L with a handful of small beginner fish, some shrimp, a goby or small eel of some sort, 20lb or so of rock (thinking 10lb base and 10lb live), and some soft corals. I'm not intending to use a sump at this point but my research suggests I may change my mind down the line. Here's my first exercise in patience and discipline - I have a cart full of gear on Amazon but wanting a sanity check before I waste my money. Here's what's in the cart:

 

-API Reef Master Test Kit (I read this is not accurate - is it accurate enough? Suggestions in a similar price range?)

 

-API Saltwater Master Test Kit (See above...)

 

-2x Koralia 425

 

-EHEIM Jager 125w Heater

 

-Instant Ocean 50g salt bag (I keep reading about salt brands - how can this matter? It's all the same chemistry, no?)

 

-Filter* * Penguin 350, Fluval C3, or AC50. I find a lot of threads on these, but have not read enough to define a true winner among them. Any strong opinions between the 3?

 

-Skimmer* * Is this a required item in a tank like this? If yes, suggestions on HOB Skimmer in the 'starter' price range?

 

What I already have:

 

-20g long

 

-65w day/actinic compact flourescent Coralife Light

 

Plan:

Set up the tank, light, water, sand, live+base and let it cycle for a month or two, examining what I have in the live rock. Add inverts and fish first followed by soft corals SLOWLY over a period of a few months.

 

Any input is greatly appreciated and looking forward to being part of the community!

 

-Jon

[Odyssey350kc]

Sounds like you have a pretty good start. Good flow with the two 425 nano pumps. As far as the salt you probably wouldn't notice any difference in them at first, its only once you start keeping corals that require elements in the salt that a good salt mix will help.

 

I have run my 20 long for almost 2 years now with no skimmer. I don't feel like the majority of people with 20 gallons or less are dependent on skimmers, frequent water changes are just as effective. And with such a small amount off water per week definetly cheaper than a skimmer.

 

I see you might want an eel, I had thought about this too but as I read up on them I learned you need a perfectly sealed top, and they can eat other fish.

 

Your also gonna need a refractometer or hydrometer to measure salt. Do yourself the favor and get the refractometer, much more accurate and way quicker readings.

 

As far as the filters I have an Aquaclear and its run perfect since i got it, also lots of easy mods to the AC series if you want to run different medias or even turn it into a little refugium.

[MrLang]

Good call on the eel - had not started looking at that one yet. I suspect I'm a few months off from anything but a clean up crew so these were just some initial thoughts. I forgot to mention that I do have a hydrometer but will look at a refractometer as well. I keep reptiles and this is akin to having a quality digital temp gun... newbies don't see it as essential but it's probably one of the most important pieces of gear.

 

Thanks for the quick input!

 

FYI the guy at my local fish store told me today that the biowheel blows the socks off the the C3 or AC50. Convenient that he doesn't sell the C3 and the AC50 is the cheaper of the options... so glad I have forums to ask these questions to!

 

EDIT: Noticed you are in NH - any suggestions on local shops? Right now I work about 3 minutes from Tropic Isle in Framingham which is considered the best in MA. I've been to Zoo Creatures in Plaistow NH quite a bit. Where do you go?

[Odyssey350kc]

Ha thats too funny. I live like 10 min from zoo creatures. There not doing too good right now as far as saltwater and corals. My sister owns a place in Exeter NH called Prehistorix, they have some corals and saltwater fish.

 

The best I have found in the area is in Salem, NH - Jays aquatics. Aqua Addicts is good too, but I believe they moved to hookset which is probably way too far.

[MrLang]

I see some cool mods for the AC70 if I decide to go that route later on. Would an AC70 be overkill for a 20g 'as is'? Just thinking about flexibility later on. Do people mod the AC50 in the same ways? (HOB Skimmer mod, refugium conversion)?

 

Any other input from other folks?

[MrLang]

I'll let this post stand as a testament to reading the forum rules and using the search function. Direction will shift to a build thread with progress shots. To answer my own questions thanks to the handy dandy search function:

 

-No Skimmer for now

 

-AC70 with floss and chemipure elite for now - possible refugium later

 

-Added a nano 240 pump for options in case my flow is high and also to have a pump for mixing water in a 5g for changes

 

-Added a cheap heater for changes

 

-Added an aquarium thermometer with a probe

 

Pictures once I get these and begin!! Spending money never felt so good!

[ajmckay]

Hey MrLang, sounds like you're on the right track. I like putting my shopping lists on hold until I've researched to the best of my ability and feedback is always good too!

 

One thing is that I would consider setting up the tank for more demanding corals from the start if you can afford it... I think most beginners will first say they want to stick with basic soft corals, however, I'm sure that eventually you'll want some LPS or even SPS corals. It's easier to plan for this at the beginning than while staring at a pretty frag at the LFS.

 

With regards to test kits, API isn't known as the most accurate, but it's a start. The reef kit is nice, but IMO if you're pretty consistent in your water changes and until you have a tank full of coral or at least more demanding ones you could probably put off that purchase. Then again it could come in handy should you encounter problems so it's up to you ! But as long as youre doing regular water changes you'll probably keep your cal,alk, and phosphate levels reasonable.

 

I like your addition of the AC70. Check out InTank @ http://shop.mediabaskets.com/ for a media basket that's made specifically for that filter! It will allow you to run filter floss, carbon/gfo, LR rubble, grow chaeto, or a slew of other things. IMO the aquaclear HOB powerfilters are the most desireable for saltwater. They're cheap and easily reconfigurable.

 

For a pump, check out the Jebao RW-4. It's been getting quite a bit of hype lately because it looks attractive, it has a controller included, and it moves massive amounts of water - and it doesn't cost much more than a single koralia on Amazon.

 

I think the extra stuff you added to the cart are good choices. It's important to have some extra heaters and pumps around! Also don't forget a hydrometer or refractometer. Oh, and another thing you may want is a mag-float/algae scraper!

 

Can you swing the difference between a 50g bag and a 150g bucket of salt? Usually the bucket is a better deal and it's nice to have plenty on hand. Note that salt mixes are quite different though! http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?246450-Muzzy-s-Synthetic-Salt-Test-Results&highlight=salt%20test Instant ocean is fine to start with.

 

Some other thoughts:

- The compact fluorescent light will get you by just fine for most soft corals, but there are some advantages to going with a newer light setup utilizing LED or hybrid LED/T5. CF is hot, not as effective as T5, and the bulbs are becoming harder to get. Also, the hight quality LED fixtures looks incredibly badass. You don't need one now, but I would seriously consider it before putting any money into your current light.

 

- You'll probably want to set up an ATO at some point (auto top-off). There are several commercially available units or the DIY route. Having an ATO will save you time in maintaining water level and salinity. Hydor, Spectrapure, JBJ, and Tunze are popular brands. For a cheaper route check out www.autotopoff.com

 

- When mixing dry base rock and live rock try to get rock that looks similar. when I built my first tank I ended up with all kinds of rock and in the end it looked scattered. If you are buying dry base rock to save $ I would suggest just buying the amount of dry rock you need and then either buying a small piece of live rock to seed, or using bottled bacteria like bio-spira to cycle the tank. Again the main reason I suggest this is to keep the types of rock in the tank looking the same. It also has the benefit of being cheaper and reducing the amount of pests that come into the system. I just ordered 22lbs of bulkreefsupply pukani rock and I couldn't be happier. 22lbs gave me all the rock I want for the tank. The only downside is it's pretty dirty, so it needs to cure for a long time - probably a month or so - before adding livestock. Finally an advantage of dry rock is you can mess with it (chisel parts off, break it in half, bond it together, etc) without having to worry about drying it out too much. With live rock you shouldn't leave it out of the water for too long.

 

- Have you considered painting the back of your tank black ? personally I think it adds a bit of class because it hides power cords, the aquaclear filter, and other stuff from being seen. Also it highlights the livestock and rock scape better. I love the look of a clean background.

 

- Get a turkey baster dedicated for tank stuff. Use it to blow off rocks, feed, get water for tests, etc...

 

- Finally, are you going to have a sand bed? I like the caribsea aragalive stuff. I think 1 to 1.5" is ideal.

[MrLang]

Thanks for the additional input.

 

Intank.com has me scratching my head (where do you... order things?) but I will do my own research or contact sales and sort it out.

 

The Jebao looks great... I'll use that as a search term see - would you run 2 of these or just 1 with that filter?

 

I tried to sell that light and had no luck, but part of the process was replacing the bulb. So I have a brand new bulb in a perfectly functioning light right now. When it requires investment I'll spring for a newer system.

 

I just asked my coworker about ATO and he told me a nightmare about the pump running in reverse and draining his tank. Since it's in my bedroom I can top off every day without much inconvenience and see how tedious it becomes. He also said his tank had a lot of trouble because his salinity spiked... so maybe I should learn a lesson in buying quality ATO versus not running one...

 

Turkey baster is on my list, have a hydrometer.

 

I do plan to have a sandbed and was thinking about 1" myself. I want enough to look nice but not enough to be high maintenance or a liability. Got a number of magfloats from over the years.

[ajmckay]

Sorry typed that at work and didn't realize I made it into a hyper link... Try this... http://shop.mediabaskets.com/

 

There's a whole section devoted to the AC70 here: http://shop.mediabaskets.com/AquaClear-70_c45.htm

 

original post edited as well

 

You would only need 1 RW-4 for a 20L. And you probably will keep it pretty dialed down too most of the time.

 

Now as for the ATO - he set it up wrong... There's 2 things that you can easily to do virtually eliminate flooding, drops in salinity, and draining. His ATO drained back when the pump shut off because he had the tube submerged into his tank when the pump turned off - the back pressure created a siphon. To ensure this never happens you just raise the tube up out of the water, call it an air gap or a siphon break. You can make a bracket or simply drill some holes into the black rim and zip tie the tube so it stays above water level.

 

To ensure that the ATO doesn't pump too much fresh water into the tank you just need a system with 2 float switches. In this system one float switch is placed where you want the water level at. A second float switch is placed higher up, but lower than the top of the rim (just before the point where water would start spilling out). They should be wired such that if the first float switch fails the water level will rise and activate the second float switch which will turn the pump off once it hits that water level. This prevents a flood and a decrease in salinity. Both switches would have to be faulty for the system to fail.

 

The fancier systems use optical sensors or have a fancy control unit, however, basic systems work just as good as long as it's a redundant system. It doesn't hurt to protect your float switches also... You can buy a little container to keep snails and stuff out which might activate the ATO falsely.

 

An ATO is by no means necessary equipment, but it makes things a lot easier. Nothing sucks more than coming home late and then you can't sleep because the water level dropped and the filter is splashing so you have to get up and fill it manually. An ATO reservoir can be filled at your convenience. Also you won't have to worry about your tank so much if you leave for a weekend or something. It's a pain to find a good tank sitter, I find it's better to just automate the essential items and then I don't have to worry.

[acrab78]

I agree with the above... I have an ac 70 and a rw4 on my 20 (high)... Was alot of flow, run the rw on else mode, at first but after the first month of running the pump has slowed and is running nicely now...

[MrLang]

Dumb guy question - can I cycle a tank with just live sand or should I get at least one piece of live rock in there right as the tank starts up to provide some source of decay?

[ajmckay]

Dumb guy question - can I cycle a tank with just live sand or should I get at least one piece of live rock in there right as the tank starts up to provide some source of decay?

It's totally up to you...

 

If you just leave it be eventually the right bacteria will make it's way into the tank as bits of dust and hair get in the tank and break down. But this takes a while.

 

I think the live sand is a good product, though I've never really trusted it to be a complete solution. For that reason I like to find something to seed the tank with. Whether it be a piece of live rock or something else. If you're aiming for as few pests as possible try to get a really nice piece of rock that has coralline algae on it. I suppose it defeats the purpose of providing a source of decay, but it's possible the base rock you select will have enough die off on it anyways. Usually that stuff isn't perfectly clean.

 

You could also dose ammonia. A lot of people do this where they add something to the tank like some fish food or pure ammonia, which is probably a good choice as long as you're consistent because it skips the part about the stuff having to decompose. You just have to dose regularly, there is probably a good thread somewhere who's routine you can mirror.

[MrLang]

Reading too many threads about nasty hitchhikers. I'll probably just buy LR from my LFS or liveaquaria.com. I believe my LFS is quite unique and respected compared to most areas. I have an order in to Amazon, will update when that comes in and I get set up.

[ajmckay]

Wait, LR has the most hitch hikers... If you don't want hitchers use dry rock. Then just carefully inspect coral frags you add to the tank.

[Jonnywhoop]

Off to a good start. I currently run a 20 long coming up on a year. Here are my thoughts:

 

-forget the ac70, it's too small. Run an ac110 with a finnex ray light over it. Mod it for a chaeto fuge. No sponges, purigen, chemi pure or any of that. TRUST ME ON THIS. You want the most space you can for your primary filtration, especially for chaeto growth. I created my rock work to break the return from the 110 since its strong. However im soon going bare bottom so it won't be an issue with disturbing sand.

 

-I use a HOB skimmer... Aquamaxx HOB-XC. It's overkill but I had a really bad algae problem. Figured it was my phosphates and nipped it by getting a skimmer which was a great investment. I ran the tank without the skimmer for about 3 months but the algae soon died after I added it.

 

-forget the koralias. I personally find them incredibly weak. I use a jebao wp-25 tilted upward for surface agitation and it grows my SPS fine. Currently siphoning out my sand to run a bare bottom which I will add another jebao to tornado the tank.

 

-my lights are a 30inch. PC fixture that I gutted and retrofitted with rapidleds. Awsome growth if your DIY savy. It's hard to find a 30 inch light for the 20L.

 

-refractormeter

-RODI system

-quality salt

-buckets

- use dry rocks to prevent hitchhikers, I didn't though.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment. Sorry if I missed some of your questions. I can try and post a picture of the tank soon. Fire any additional questions you may have.

 

P.S: AQUACLEAR 110.

[MrLang]

Thanks guys.

 

I think there is a big choice to be made in forming a new tank. Do you use dry rock and seed it with a small piece of something safe or do you buy something lively and roll the dice. Loving how this hobby is not at all clear cut in a lot of ways, at least compared to some others.

 

I do want my tank to be lush, so I'm going to take the roll the dice method, but I also like the idea of watching the rock 'grow', so I'll stick with the original idea of using approximately 50/50 dry and live. It might look a little mismatched at first but the progression should be very cool to watch. The last time I had a reef one of my favorite things about it was all of the tiny little inverts and feathers etc. that came in the live rock that I got from this particular store.

 

I did end up getting the AC70 but these things are so cheap I will upgrade when it makes sense and keep the 70 around for the inevitable 2nd tank. Ended up getting the RW4 - just 1. On the skimmer, I will wait until my bio load is higher and determine if that's necessary on this tank.

 

Pictures to come this weekend.

[ajmckay]

The 50/50 combo I'm sure will work out fine - I'm not sure exactly what youe mean by "watch it grow" though. Cured live rock will look mostly the same as time passes. Dry rock on the other hand will "grow" and look drastically different as it encursts with coralline and gets populated with various worms and crustaceans. Granted this is all due to the presence of live rock in the system!

 

I think that for your first tank (at least in a while) it's good to have all the little critters if just to learn about them and have the experiences of dealing with some of the pest algaes, anemones, and other stuff...

[MrLang]

My thinking as well and that's what I meant by watch it grow - watch the dry rock populate off of the live.

 

I just picked out a nice 8lb piece of 'Marco Rock' on the way home. Thinking I will use that along the back and build around it with 12-17 lbs of live rock either ordered or from them. They only had aquacultured rock which I didn't like much and Tonga and Tatonka which looked pretty good but not particularly lively and for $11/lb. Somewhat leaning toward ordering my LR and maybe just seeding a couple lbs from them for now. They had some nice small pieces but not what I'm looking to fill my tank with.

[MrLang]

Everything arrived yesterday and I got set up. One thing I wish I had looked into was the length of the minimum depth on the Jager 125... looks like it can only go horizontal in a 20L. The way I am leaning towards scaping it should block it anyway. Jebao RW4 is giving GREAT flow and an awesome effect on Else mode - do I need to keep my Mag Float away from it? Getting a nice whirlpool effect going on in the whole tank and good surface agitation. Going to get some seeds at LFS - thinking I'll get a few very deep purple aquaculture rocks and maybe a piece or two of pacific - maybe 7-8 lbs total. This will give me room for 10 more lbs if I decide to get them there or order from Florida. I don't really like macro algae much so hesitating on the florida stuff from what I've seen. I also opted to put a midnight black background in using the gel. Very happy with that also.

 

[MrLang]

I ended up going a 'clean' route so far but I have room for 5-10 lbs more rock depending how full I want it to be. I put in a few pieces of 'coralline aquaculture' from an indoor system. I also put some Tukani in there and dropped a small raw shrimp for ammonia. I will update with pics tonight or tomorrow.

 

-I am having a flow issue with the RW4. In else mode, it's moving my sand all over. I had it in one position and it was clearing it along the front of the glass (see above). I moved it up a bit and the front was fine, but then the far corner got pushed up and became bare. Moved it again and the front is clearing out again. I've been looking at a lot of pictures of pump placement and not seeing much difference with mine. Any advice??

 

-Is it OK if I don't attach my rocks in the scape? They are pretty firmly in place and I don't intend to add any bulldozer varieties of snail.

 

-I notice a huge amount of people use this very dense rock from the gulf. Is this the type of rock they built the 1-1.5 lb/gal metric off of? I'm at 16.5 lbs rock in my tank now and it's feeling pretty full. Do corals not like sitting on the very porous surfaces of pacific and dry rock?

[MrLang]

Put the RW4 on W1 mode which does not disturb the sand too much.

 

[Odyssey350kc]

Looks good. Always fun to see those nice white rocks. wont stay that way for long.

[MrLang]

Looks good. Always fun to see those nice white rocks. wont stay that way for long.

 

 

For continuity - come check it out! You were right, didn't stay that way for long...

 

Tank thread: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/357851-mrlangs-20l-mixed-reef-dreamtime/