How effective is macro algae at phosphate export?

[brandon429]

I thought the basis of the link I posted was that plants leak phosphate back into the tank and dont really bind it. it was a neat counter post to the common idea that refugiums store up and lock waste, which is what I thought they did. I didnt realize or wholly believe that plants literally leak thephosphate back into the water column per the smart dudes on that link. I hadn't read that post in a long time but just recalled it being a nice counter to the common assumption of phosphates being bound, and unavailable, in the plant matrix. whether or not that is an accurate thread I dont know, chemistry never was my best point. I dont have to even consider phosphates or nitrates in my tank whatsoever but I realize larger tanks must and its good knowledge to have, how to deal with po4 naturally if that can be had.

[Subsea]

I thought the basis of the link I posted was that plants leak phosphate back into the tank and dont really bind it. it was a neat counter post to the common idea that refugiums store up and lock waste, which is what I thought they did. I didnt realize or wholly believe that plants literally leak thephosphate back into the water column per the smart dudes on that link. I hadn't read that post in a long time but just recalled it being a nice counter to the common assumption of phosphates being bound, and unavailable, in the plant matrix. whether or not that is an accurate thread I dont know, chemistry never was my best point. I dont have to even consider phosphates or nitrates in my tank whatsoever but I realize larger tanks must and its good knowledge to have, how to deal with po4 naturally if that can be had.

Brandon,

I did not read long enough to get to macro leaching phosphate back into the tank. For that to happen, the macro would have to be decomposing, like going sexual. The same could be said about coral, fish or food decomposing in the tank.

Patrick

[GlassHouse]

I did not read long enough to get to macro leaching phosphate back into the tank. For that to happen, the macro would have to be decomposing, like going sexual. The same could be said about coral, fish or food decomposing in the tank

Perhaps you should spend more time reading, less time typing.

To clarify the facts. Are you saying that macroalgae absorbs organic phosphate?

You don't appear to be interested in learning about the topic, but rather about promoting your scientifically unsuported beliefs about the subject. If that changes, I'll be happy to respond, or feel free to actaully do some reading.

[biocubedatx]

 

Perhaps you should spend more time reading, less time typing.

 

You don't appear to be interested in learning about the topic, but rather about promoting your scientifically unsuported beliefs about the subject. If that changes, I'll be happy to respond, or feel free to actaully do some reading.

You don't seem to be helping much anymore.

 

Perhaps others reading want more insight and knowledge, you feel you posses this knowledge obviously, but won't place it out. It seems more up your alley to keep the pot stirred.

 

Go on show us your knowledge and prove where all he is wrong, give some sources, and some examples in simpleterms. I'm ready to learn.

[brandon429]

Ill go see if its anothe thread that reefindude was posting on, he's such a chem guy. even if there is some cellular leak, it can't be a total remission back into the environment or the plant matrix and oragnelles that run on phosphate couldnt work. some of it is consumed, bio-unavailable, I think the debate is to how much.

 

I had previously thought 100% taken up was unavailable, perhaps time w tell as more formal studies are done. seems to me that something as simple as putting some macro in a known clean saltwater sample, illuminating and feeding it etc like normal, and then testing for phosphate still has some merit. our test kits dont pick up minute leakage, so the prevailing takeaway is still that its all locked up. Perhaps these phosphate leaking dudes were using gas chromatographs or something lol. but I wouldnt take issue with reefindude he's prob right to some degree. as long as my gallon reefs continue in spite of my abuse of them I'll just watch you large tank boys debate all day long lol.

[Subsea]

Brandon,

You are correct about the theoretical and the measurable not always being together. We often grab some knowledge and expand it past its limits of practicality. I am a no nonsense practical operations person. If it works, I don't fix it, but I do like to know why it works.

Patrick

[kriskristofferzen]

Ill go see if its anothe thread that reefindude was posting on, he's such a chem guy. even if there is some cellular leak, it can't be a total remission back into the environment or the plant matrix and oragnelles that run on phosphate couldnt work. some of it is consumed, bio-unavailable, I think the debate is to how much.

 

I had previously thought 100% taken up was unavailable, perhaps time w tell as more formal studies are done. seems to me that something as simple as putting some macro in a known clean saltwater sample, illuminating and feeding it etc like normal, and then testing for phosphate still has some merit. our test kits dont pick up minute leakage, so the prevailing takeaway is still that its all locked up. Perhaps these phosphate leaking dudes were using gas chromatographs or something lol. but I wouldnt take issue with reefindude he's prob right to some degree. as long as my gallon reefs continue in spite of my abuse of them I'll just watch you large tank boys debate all day long lol.

reading thread you posted tonight. Thanks for the info!

[Subsea]

Anthony Calfo wrote an excellant article on Vegetable Filters used in refugiums. If you want minimum maintenance, Chaetomorphy is hard to beat. Because nothing eats it, I do not use it. It does provide an excellent matrix for pod habitat and will compost tomatoes. I prefer fast growing Caulerpa for nutrient export and nutrient recycling. Ulva is another excellent fast growing macro that everybody eats, including people. It is the main ingredient in Nori.

Patrick

In rereading Anthony's article on "Vegetable Filters", I forgot, about Gracilaria. Early in my fascination with refugiums, I found IndoPacific SeaFarms in Hawaii. Gerald Hesslinger is owner operator. Early in his academic career, he forgoe a doctorate at Harvard to develope mariculture for Pacific islanders to culture clams. Developing an infrastructure to export this product, instead of eating it, he lifted the economy of an entire island nation. My fascination with macro brought me to Tang Heaven Red, Gracilaria Parvispora. It was years later that I connected "Tang Heaven Red" with "Red Ogo". On a hobbiest forum, when asked about eating Red Ogo from our refugiums, a hobbiest/chef inquired about cleaning the Ogo of pods. I replied that I enjoyed them as chevichee. I could hear his laughter from Kansas City.

 

My initial plan for Aquaculture Ranch was to grow an ediable food in modular frame greenhouses. It was my hope to develope the technique that would work in a remote area to feed hungry people. To that end, I am working with two doctorate scientist that are department heads at two different universities, Texas A & M and University of Texas. Tzachi Samocha is Regents Fellow & Professor at Texas Agrilife Research Mariculture Laboratory at Flour Buff. He is my connection to the Texas Agriculture Department, which is a required hurtle to certify Red Ogo as an organic food product. Jerry Brandt is Director of Culture Collection of Algae in the Department of Molecular Bioscience at UT. These two men have nearly 100 years of experience in marine algaes. Jerry will be touring the Bear Creek facility in a few weeks and I hope to procure a contract to sell macro algae to UT. Tzachi and I meant two years ago at his facility in Corpus Christie. He introduced me to another doctor of science, Doug Ernst. Doug is Senior VP of Science and Technology at Natural Shrimp. Natural Shrimp pioneered a process to grow shrimp in modular frame facilities. Using proprietary microbe cultures they mass produce shrimp in intensive culture. When touring their facility, south of San Antoine, I was amazed with the concentration of shrimp in these tanks. Doug's interest in macro algae was to use it to clean up the spent water from a 10K pound batch of shrimp and reuse the water for the next batch. Both Natural Shrimp and Aquaculture Ranch are zero discharge facilities. During the worst drought in the Texas Hill Country in 200 years, zero water discharge is an environmentally responsible policy.

 

A personnel note on Tzachi and I. While we never meant until two years ago, we shared a space in time 47 years ago. Tzachi was born in Israel. He was a tank brigade commander that defeated Egypt in the Seven Day War in 1967. I was a young USAF crew chief on Puff the Magic Dragon flying patrol over the same desert during those seven days. It is a small world.

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

[Subsea]

When growing large amounts of macroalgae in a closed system, even with evaporation, I have found both alkalinity and salinity to go down. As an avid tomato gardener, I add gypsum (calcium sulphate) and Epsom Salt (magnesium sulphate) to my tomato plants. In macroalgae mariculture, I dose with iron, iodine, kelp concentrate, and ammonia. Recently, after realizing a phosphate deficiency, I dose with Miracle Grow Bloom Buster, 15-30-15.

 

 

 

http://marineplantbook.com/marinebookpage10.htm

 

Russ Kronwetter at Gulfcoast Eco-System has a guidebook for macroalgae linked at his website, live-plants. He list iron as a minor nutrient required by macroalgae. In experimenting with iron dosing, I found out about a rapid iron uptake mechanism in which macroalgae stores iron for future use. It is somewhat similar to a nitrogen storage mechanism of cyno imbedded in coral biomass. The more I find out about how nature works, the more I realize the beauty of Intelligent Design.

Patrick

[Nocturnal]

I have enough chaeto in my fuge to fill two 5 gallon buckets and I have cyano growing on top of the chaeto. I'd say it's not efficient enough.

 

It is only going to uptake nutrients as it grows though, ignoring what must be a small amount for staying "alive". Total volume of algae isn't useful to know, net growth (and then removal) is what matters I'd say.

[MikeTR]

Sure total volume is useful. A fuge that's full of macro and pruned regularly is going to uptake more than a softball sized clump. I didn't buy that much chaeto to begin with.

[Nocturnal]

Sure total volume is useful. A fuge that's full of macro and pruned regularly is going to uptake more than a softball sized clump. I didn't buy that much chaeto to begin with.

 

It's semantics I suppose. More chaeto can grow more chaeto faster than less chaeto can grow chaeto. Once you hit your full volume though it goes back to pruning. (assuming you believe algae works for export at all, which I think it does somewhat)

[MikeTR]

It definitely does help as I don't have the nuisance algae problems but it's not nearly as efficient as cyano. To solely rely on it to control phosphates and nitrates is ineffective.

[Subsea]

I like using multiple nutrient pathways; cyno, fast growing macro and slow growing macro. John Mahoney at Reef Cleaners recommends fast, slow and medium growing macroalgae. No one to my knowledge recomends cynobacteria for nutrient export. Yet without a doubt, it is the best bioindicator of phosphate in our aquariums. Even when the best test kits says zero phosphate, cynobacteria tells you different.

Patrick

[SteinsFish]

Speaking of multiple forms of algae nutrient uptake, my sump was doing exactly that. After a couple of weeks of applying light over my caulerpa brachy in the middle section of sump, brown, red and hair algae started to form in the sump. Some of the brown/red algae even grow on the inside of the skimmer body. Needless to say, the sump just looks horribly dirty so I end up removing the caulerpa and light.

 

I don't understand why some of the refugiums on the net look so clean.

[Subsea]

Sometimes, the pictures taken are only after a lot of cleaning. Seldom will people show their dirty refugium or tank.

 

Many variables influence what becomes the dominant life form in refugiums or tanks. When cycling a tank, it has been my experience to witness a progression of nuisance diatoms, GHA before things settle out. I don't fight it, but let it run its course. Did you replace the vegetable filter with rock rubble?

Patrick

[SteinsFish]

Hi Patrick,

 

After removing the caulerpa and lights, I cleaned up my sump, scrubbed and siphoned out all the hair algae.

 

I have not put in any rock rubble. i'm still contemplating how to go about doing the macro algae setup without having all those things growing on skimmer and such.

 

Perhaps I can put up some sort plastic mesh on both sides of the refugium to reduce the light exposure on the rest of the sump. Other ideas are possibly a lamp with a good reflector? Or a submersible spotlight? Not sure whether these will make a difference.

[Subsea]

I think that syphon and scrubbing is sufficient to start back with macroalgae. Often, if it is nipped in the bud, the run away progression can be prevented. I have micro algae on the glass sides of my refugium. I export macroalgae with out worrying about the glass on my refugium. As I am skimmer less and run high nutrient systems, I am not concerned with it. In my 75G DT, I grow Caulerpa Paspaloides with Tangs grazing heavily on it. This is nutrient recycling. When I prune and remove Caulerpa from my refugium, this is nutrient export.

 

I agree with your logic of focusing the light on the middle as a benefit.

Patrick

[SteinsFish]

I'm not too concerned with the sump glass per se but the growth on skimmer and other devices kinda irks me.

 

I have access to caulerpa brachy (from what I read, this is quite an invasive species) and chaeto.

 

Also, does anyone actually considered those moss-like algae found growing on the beach rocks?

[Subsea]

All macro and micro algae absorb nutrients. For that matter, so does cynoacteria. To export nutrients, a convienant method of harvest and removal needs to be established. For that purpose, Chaetomorphy is hard to beat for ease of maintenance and stability with respect to macroalgae going sexual. The moss growing on beach rocks could work. I suspect the intensity that they are accustomed to would be difficult/expensive to provide. A turf algae scrubber is a very compact system that can use micro algae or cyno for nutrient export. There are many ways to export nutrients. I have even grown Red Ogo and made Chevichee with it.

 

With respect to invasive species in the refugium, I use fast growing Caulerpa Prolifera for that purpose. Harvest it regularly and export the nutrients.

 

Concerning the funk that is growing on your protein skimmer surfaces, have you checked your skimmate. When I used a skimmer 20 years ago, there was nothing attractive about that stuff.

Patrick

[Nocturnal]

It definitely does help as I don't have the nuisance algae problems but it's not nearly as efficient as cyano. To solely rely on it to control phosphates and nitrates is ineffective.

 

No doubt there. I'd say a general rule is that the simpler the organism the faster it can consume nutrients and reproduce.

 

Maybe somebody needs to build a cyano reactor. Since my chaeto died off during what I believe was a period of super low nutrients my fuge is a diatom scrubber so maybe I'm halfway there. Nasty stuff. Just huge mats of reddish snot. At least it is staying out of my display for now.

[Subsea]

I agree with more efficient as you go down the food chain.

 

In 50 years, as the population of earth exponentially increases, the area required to grow beef will be limited by people wanting to live on the same area.

Patrick

[Nocturnal]

I agree with more efficient as you go down the food chain.

 

In 50 years, as the population of earth exponentially increases, the area required to grow beef will be limited by people wanting to live on the same area.

Patrick

 

 

Way off topic, but I don't see population increasing anymore. Birth rates are dropping even in the undeveloped world.

 

Agreed though that eating a steak in the future will be a rarity at best. We may have lab grown meat in ready supply but nothing like a huge animal that requires a ton of food and whose farts are contributing to greenhouse gases.

[Subsea]

It's semantics I suppose. More chaeto can grow more chaeto faster than less chaeto can grow chaeto. Once you hit your full volume though it goes back to pruning. (assuming you believe algae works for export at all, which I think it does somewhat)

 

When would removing algae from a closed system not be exporting nutrients? Why would you say "I think it does somewhat". You put two conditional qualifiers in that phrase.

Patrick

[Subsea]

 

Way off topic, but I don't see population increasing anymore. Birth rates are dropping even in the undeveloped world.

 

Agreed though that eating a steak in the future will be a rarity at best. We may have lab grown meat in ready supply but nothing like a huge animal that requires a ton of food and whose farts are contributing to greenhouse gases.

 

I don't think it is "way off topic". Farts are nutrient export. Once when debating my husbandry of being skimmerless and no partial water changes for nutrient export, I bragged that everything was nutrient recycling and zero export. Further on into the discussion, it dawned on me that with the exchange of gases at the water/air interface there was plenty of nutrient exchange. I conceded that with denitrification processes going on, the removal of nitrogen as a gas had to be considered nutrient export.

 

Would this nitrogen gas be considered a fart?

 

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick