Nitrate Factory

[Subsea]

The reason that I know nitrates are being processed is that nitrate concentration was reduced even while more nitrate is being produced with input of ammonia.

[Subsea]

Purigen is a polymer that binds organics. Randy Holmes Farley uses activated carbon to do that. Since removal of nitrate is not its main purpose, what is its purpose? Snake oil?

Patrick

[Subsea]

For me, I believe in the kiss principal. I keep it simple. Activated carbon is the only media that I use. I use macro filtration to absorb nitrate, phosphate and a long list of heavy metals.

Patrick

[Nano sapiens]

Nano,

As in most things, it is to what degree is the contribution. I would be interested in further informations that qualifies more in depth what you have pointed out. As it is dynamic, I am fairly sure that the contribution of nitrogen processing by the two separate bacteria processes of nitrification and de-nitrification in close proximity of each other can not be quantified easily. If certain habitats can promote this, it would be good to know.

 

As a practicing reefkeeper, I promote nitrate processing wherever I can get it. For certain, live rock has been lifted to a very high level of importance in this hobby. IMO, it is overpriced and overrated as a biofiltration media. I do use diver collected, uncured live rock from the GOM for biodiversity.

More than ten years ago, three PhD scientist conducted a test of biofiltration efficiencies: Rob Toonen, Ron Schmick and Bob Goemans. While all methods processed nitrate effectively, I was shocked to see no room left in the tank with live rock. IMO, substrate was the winner for that reason. So little tank volume produced so much surface area. I see too many post on threads where hobiest are getting rid of old live rock and old substrate. This agrees with your point that lack of husbandry destroys the effectiveness of these media. For me, I stack the deck in my favor with janitors that reproduce in my systems: bristle worms, Drawf Cerith Snails, Micro Stars, along with the pod brothers: amphi and copo. Not only do they keep the sand bed functioning, they feed the inhabitants of the tank with their spores. For me, the micro flora and fauna at the bottom of the food chain establish the long term health of any ecosystem.

 

As a grandfather, one of my biggest joys is to explore my refugium with my 6 year old grandson. With lighted magnifying glasses, we lay on our stomachs and explore their world. In 44 years of reefkeeping, I have not lost my appreciation for the complexity & beauty of this marvelous hobby. In the mid 1970's, Martin Moe with a PhD in Marine Biolgy said it eloquently about the hobby, "It is not rocket science, it is more complicated".

Laissez la bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

 

Sprung and Delbeek's 'The Reef Aquarium' series (Vol 3) has some well written and informative information regarding denitrification that I found enlightening. Pages. 260 - 261 go into some detail on the subject:

 

"It has been shown that nitrification and denitrification occur in aerobic layers where they are termed coupled since the processes occur simultaneously, mediated by bacteria in close proximity. Here anoxic microsites provide habitat for anaereobic bacteria, while being surrounded by aerobic pore waters (Jenkins and Kemp, 1984). This is in contrast with the mental concept that the processes occur in separate aerobic and anaerobic zones."

 

Theoretically, any non-toxic substrate that contains 'micro-pores' should allow for the nitrification/denitrification process to proceed when water movement is present, but some substrates would be more suitable than others. The problem often encountered in reef tank aquaria is excessive material (detritus, bacterial films, etc.) that can drastically reduce the efficiency of the process.

 

The question of 'degree of contribution' is an interesting one, indeed, since denitrification can occur in a reef tank wherever anaerobic conditions exist and nitrate is present.

 

Interestingly, some reef tanks are now run with just corals and a suitable substrate (very little or no live rock)...and conversely, no substrate and a fair amount of live rock. While I have seen problems with the later approach, I hesitate to label one method 'superior' to the other since I don't have statistics on long term viability.

 

I am not a proponent of replacing live rock and live sand. 80% of my aragonate substrate is now 15 years old (9 years of those in a relatively high nitrate environment) and all my live rock is of the same age. In my tank, NO3 is undetectable with a hobbyist test kit and PO4 is typically undetectable (Salifert test kits). A small amount of algae exists in my tank as it does in all reef tanks, but it is continuously processed by herbivores (hermit crabs, crustaceans and Clownfish nibble on it, too). As you do, I also encourage what I call 'natural CUC' organisms to flourish (Bristleworms, Mysids and other crustaceans, micro-brittlestars, micro collunista snails, etc.). I am also a stickler for water changes and I vaccum/clean/baste the rocks at least on a weekly basis.

[ALexpsycho]

Very nice.

I`m more on water changes(past,present,future in aquaria IMO)but I have to admit I would like to try Eric`s theory about making a tank that the total filtration would come from a refugum 2-3 times bigger then the DT.

 

No aquarium should ''dry'' nor be too nutritious, the concept of probiotics and carbon sources depend on a rich nutrient cycle and quick swap and removal (export) through the protein skimmer.If you can do the same thing with a different way of course and more profitable for you and your system.

 

As long as the developments in the hobby and general studies are made ​​at a rapid pace, who knows what we will be talking in a few years.

[Subsea]

Very nice.

I`m more on water changes(past,present,future in aquaria IMO)but I have to admit I would like to try Eric`s theory about making a tank that the total filtration would come from a refugum 2-3 times bigger then the DT.

 

No aquarium should ''dry'' nor be too nutritious, the concept of probiotics and carbon sources depend on a rich nutrient cycle and quick swap and removal (export) through the protein skimmer.If you can do the same thing with a different way of course and more profitable for you and your system.

 

As long as the developments in the hobby and general studies are made ​​at a rapid pace, who knows what we will be talking in a few years.

At 12 years, my 75G Jaubert Plenum on top and 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom has never seen a skimmer nor a water change. I feed heavy and recently begin dosing with a kelp extract that has all the elements for macro growth except iodine and phosphate. I promote evaporative cooling and add groundwater straight from the aquifer. The water analysis for the Middle Trinity Aquifer is included in an earlier post on this thread. It is the equivalent of limewater.

It is my opinion that it is hard to improve on "mother nature". I understand technology very well. Until it makes the operation of my 10K plus gallon systems more economical, I will stick with my natural systems.

Viva la difference,

Patrick

 

PS. Eric Borneman has an extended macro lagoon that is five times the size of his display tank. I have some 55G tanks set up without live rock: 1" coarse substrate macro lagoon. If you wish to talk with a scientist about skimmerless operation with zero water change, then Gerald Heslinga of IndoPacific SeaFarms is your huckleberry.

[noahJT]

Following. My money is on the sand. But, tell me one thing.

 

How can you rule out the denitrification fairy that comes at night?

[Subsea]

Following. My money is on the sand. But, tell me one thing.

 

How can you rule out the denitrification fairy that comes at night?

What does the denitrification fairy that comes at night mean? Please expound so that we all understand the question.

Patrick

[noahJT]

What does the denitrification fairy that comes at night mean? Please expound so that we all understand the question.

Patrick

 

It was a terrible joke! Like a tooth fairy that exports nitrates!

[Subsea]

It was a terrible joke! Like a tooth fairy that exports nitrates!

 

We all strive for successful nitrate export, why not the tooth fairy. I consider macro algae the tooth fairy.

Patrick

[SteinsFish]

Hi Patrick/Subsea,

 

Hope this is not off-topic.

 

In the case of a small sump area, wouldn't biopellets be the better/effective option, opposed to keeping a small amount of macro algae, in the limited space?

[Subsea]

As I understand biopellets, a skimmer is required to export the bacteria that are grown by the bio pellets. If you have limited space in a nano tank, why adapt a technique that requires more bulky equipment like a skimmer. What about nutrient export by water change. Also, a 1/2" of oolite sand produces denitrification.

 

Macro export involves 15% nitrogen and 1% phosphate by dry weight. It also absorbs every heavy metal on the periodic table of known chemicals. An algae turf scrubber in a sump would use minimum area in a sump.

 

It is your sump, do what works for you.

[ALexpsycho]

At 12 years, my 75G Jaubert Plenum on top and 30G mud/macro refugium on bottom has never seen a skimmer nor a water change. I feed heavy and recently begin dosing with a kelp extract that has all the elements for macro growth except iodine and phosphate. I promote evaporative cooling and add groundwater straight from the aquifer. The water analysis for the Middle Trinity Aquifer is included in an earlier post on this thread. It is the equivalent of limewater.

It is my opinion that it is hard to improve on "mother nature". I understand technology very well. Until it makes the operation of my 10K plus gallon systems more economical, I will stick with my natural systems.

Viva la difference,

Patrick

 

PS. Eric Borneman has an extended macro lagoon that is five times the size of his display tank. I have some 55G tanks set up without live rock: 1" coarse substrate macro lagoon. If you wish to talk with a scientist about skimmerless operation with zero water change, then Gerald Heslinga of IndoPacific SeaFarms is your huckleberry.

 

Thanks for the info Subsea.This is what forums are all about.

Cheers!

[Subsea]

I got too aggressive with increase in ammonia dose and have gone back to 2ml twice a day. With ammonia readings at 8ppm for more than 24 hours, I was concerned for the bacteria required to perform denitrification. Nothing happens in a vacuum. With respect to control tank as a base line to remove unknown contributions from the study, I should expound.

 

Makeup water is untreated and is biologically active. There are microbes in this water, that due to the lack of sophistication of this study, I can not account for. A major player that I will attempt to isolate is iron bacteria. Ward Lab will assist me in this area, as they are doing bacteria incubation to isolate iron bacteria and sulfide bacteria. In viewing the control tank surfaces, a slight browm film is developing on glass surfaces. I contribute this to photosynthesis of micro algae or perhaps a phytoplankton bloom.

 

In any case, I press on.

Patrick

[Subsea]

Explain why you use the term "degassing" to describe the bacterial denitrification process.

My belief is that the anaerobic bacteria metabolize nitrate with the important waste product being N2, nitrogen gas dissolved in water.

The nitrogen gas would "degas" itself by itself from the salt water, no, just like CO2 does from soda water? Or from beer in an open beer bottle.

Free nitrogen gas from the denitrifying bacteria will leave the water and go to the athmosphete: degas. Branden initiated the term. I merely used it to be in harmony with his response.

[Subsea]

I do not consider the well water to be the unit of control. All the other tanks have the same well water plus media. The control tank has well water with no media. Whatever biofiltration happens in control tank is subtracted from each of the other tanks. Thus any contribution from media/substrate remains to be compared on its own merit.

 

As you pointed out, the well water is an unknown and it must be subtracted from the study. Microbes in the air are an unknown and must be subtracted out. This is the purpose of the control tank, to establish a base line datum of zero.

[Subsea]

Nitrate concentration is the control parameter. When nitrate exceeds 100ppm, the ammonia addittion will be discontinued in that tank. When nitrate concentration drops to 50ppm, ammonia addition will be started in that tank. Ammonia volume processed determines effectiveness of bio filtration media.

[tibbsy07]

Are all of these tanks using their own individual filters/plumbing/etc.? They are totally independent tanks, no shared lines or anything? Do you rinse your tools and stuff in between all the tank testing and dosing?

[Subsea]

Are all of these tanks using their own individual filters/plumbing/etc.? They are totally independent tanks, no shared lines or anything? Do you rinse your tools and stuff in between all the tank testing and dosing?

They are connected by the air they share in the same room. Water movement is supplied by air bubbles. There is no plumbing or filters in tanks, just different media. While I do not sterilize test tubes, they are rinsed between each test. Dosing is applied by syringe which does not touch water in the tanks.

 

Tibbsy,

It is some what crude and probably would not make scientific laboratory grade. However, I feel it is relevant for this level of simplicity.

Patrick

 

PS. I forgot to mention that all tanks but control tank received the same amount of Dr Tim's Bacteria.

[Subsea]

What is the purpose using your well fresh water as a control?

When its properties are unknown, and no other reef hobbyists, besides your immediate neighbors could even duplicate its properties.

It's not really a control, if there are thousand unknown variables about it. And nonreproducable by anyone else.

A more suitable control would be sterile water. Even though it becomes contaminated within a few seconds of opening the container and exposing it to air.

Maybe I am just missing the purpose of your experiment, or intent.

 

 

Fakwar,

The purpose for using untreated groundwater is economics. Eighty gallons of sterile water does not produce income. The control tank removes the unknown contributors from the well water and unknown contributions from microbes in the air.

 

The intent and purpose of the study, for me, is three fold. Train an apprentice in understanding mariculture starting at the basics. Open up a meaningful discussion on basic filtration techniques that are used in this hobby, so that the average hobbiest can understand and make educated choices. Create a high profile discussion which assist me in advertising my company, I hope, in a positive way.

Patrick

[tibbsy07]

They are connected by the air they share in the same room. Water movement is supplied by air bubbles. There is no plumbing or filters in tanks, just different media. While I do not sterilize test tubes, they are rinsed between each test. Dosing is applied by syringe which does not touch water in the tanks.

 

Tibbsy,

It is some what crude and probably would not make scientific laboratory grade. However, I feel it is relevant for this level of simplicity.

Patrick

 

PS. I forgot to mention that all tanks but control tank received the same amount of Dr Tim's Bacteria.

Sounds good to me.

 

I do have a question about the second set of experiments, though. My understanding is that you are setting up a tank with substrate and macroalgae, and a friend of yours is setting up a tank with substrate and soft corals to compare the photosynthetic organisms' effect on the nitrate levels, correct? I assume you are hypothesizing that the macro tank will utilize more nitrate than the coral tank?

[Subsea]

Sounds good to me.

 

I do have a question about the second set of experiments, though. My understanding is that you are setting up a tank with substrate and macroalgae, and a friend of yours is setting up a tank with substrate and soft corals to compare the photosynthetic organisms' effect on the nitrate levels, correct? I assume you are hypothesizing that the macro tank will utilize more nitrate than the coral tank?

 

To be honest, I do not know which will consume more nitrate. It would depend on the exact species of coral used and macro algae used. I will not push Phase 2 with excessive nutrients in the manner that I am pushing Phase 1. The substrate and lighting will be identical in all three tanks. I am strongly considering hardy SPS in the third tank. Are you interested in being the third member of the selection committee? I have committed to at least a two year study.

Patrick

[tibbsy07]

I gotcha. I still hypothesize that the algae will consume more nitrate, as they are not a symbiotic relationship. They exist solely for themselves. Corals feed and use photosynthesis to varying degrees based on species. Algae just grow. Grow grow grow.

 

If I had the experience with keeping coral for longer (specifically SPS) and I had the means to have another tank, I would absolutely do this. The second phase isn't going to happen for a while, right? I might be able to do this when the time comes, I'll keep you updated. If I end up doing this, I'll need a list of exact equipment used for your tank (buckets, tongs, light fixture, light bulb, brand of tank, salt brand, etc.). Regardless, I'll be following this along. I love microbiology, especially as it pertains to my hobbies! I, for one, welcome our microbial overlords

[Subsea]

I gotcha. I still hypothesize that the algae will consume more nitrate, as they are not a symbiotic relationship. They exist solely for themselves. Corals feed and use photosynthesis to varying degrees based on species. Algae just grow. Grow grow grow.

 

If I had the experience with keeping coral for longer (specifically SPS) and I had the means to have another tank, I would absolutely do this. The second phase isn't going to happen for a while, right? I might be able to do this when the time comes, I'll keep you updated. If I end up doing this, I'll need a list of exact equipment used for your tank (buckets, tongs, light fixture, light bulb, brand of tank, salt brand, etc.). Regardless, I'll be following this along. I love microbiology, especially as it pertains to my hobbies! I, for one, welcome our microbial overlords

All tanks will be set up here, side by side. In this manner, husbandry of tank will also be identical. For substrate, I lean toward oolite sand. The lights will be a DIY 10W 6500K LED cluster. Tank size will be a 14G cube. I asked for your contribution on selection committee because you bring in scientific expertise. Timfish brings in both scientific expertise and 20+ years as a reefkeeping maintenance company. I have 45 years reefkeeping experience. I will be host and project manager. Phase 2 will begin in May, but details will be firmed up before then. Tim has already selected fast growing Leather Corals as his softies. I have selected Caulerpa Paspaloides as an attractive feather macro with three fronds on stems. As Tim has many maintenance tanks operating with SPS, I will ask for his suggesstions and float them on this thread.

 

Your continued involvement is welcomed and appreciated.

 

Microbial overlords. Cute. I am sure that the Martian Invaders in War of The Worlds would agree with the connection.

Patrick

[tibbsy07]

All tanks will be set up here, side by side. In this manner, husbandry of tank will also be identical. For substrate, I lean toward oolite sand. The lights will be a DIY 10W 6500K LED cluster. Tank size will be a 14G cube. I asked for your contribution on selection committee because you bring in scientific expertise. Timfish brings in both scientific expertise and 20+ years as a reefkeeping maintenance company. I have 45 years reefkeeping experience. I will be host and project manager. Phase 2 will begin in May, but details will be firmed up before then. Tim has already selected fast growing Leather Corals as his softies. I have selected Caulerpa Paspaloides as an attractive feather macro with three fronds on stems. As Tim has many maintenance tanks operating with SPS, I will ask for his suggesstions and float them on this thread. Your continued involvement is welcomed and appreciated. Microbial overlords. Cute. I am sure that the Martian Invaders in War of The Worlds would agree with the connection. Patrick

That makes more sense I would LOVE to help out in any way I can, though I would likely only be able to help out with the microbe side of things and maybe the overall design of said experiment. I'll be around and following this thread. I'm excited to see where this goes.