Tap Water

[amnesiak]

Hi Everyone,

I've been mostly lurking for a few weeks and absorbing as much information as possible. I am slowly collecting the pieces for my (daughter's) tank and I think I have a pretty good question to get opinions on.

First, let me get these things out of the way:

1. I've googled "tap water site:nano-reef.com" and looked through the first 60 results for relevant info.

2. My plan was always to use RO/DI, as I have a cheap source at the organic grocery store VERY close to my home.

3. I have heard of the common problems with diatom blooms and read about what causes them.

4. I'm only posing this question because I saw that tashayar was running one tank fine with tap water but another tank was hurting. Someone remarked that the tap water in her area was especially good.

 

I live in Seattle, and we have especially good tap water too. I'm wondering if anyone with similar water quality (west of the cascades) has tried using tap water. I'm also wondering if anyone has seen similar measurements to these done on their RO/DI water.

 

That said, I'd either boil or let the water sit for a couple of days to dechlorinate it; I wouldn't use conditioner. I want to know, is this worth a shot? Here are the params distilled (ha, unintended pun) from that pdf I linked, with the stuff I thought was relevant highlighted.

 

Barium: 2.1 ug/L

Fluoride: 1 mg/L

Haloacetic Acids: 17 ug/L

Trihalomethanes: 26 ug/L

Aluminum: 9.3 ug/L

Chloride: 5 mg/L

Iron: 75 ug/L

Manganese: 3.8 ug/L

pH range: 7.94-8.41

Total Dissolved Solids: 61.5 mg/L

Sulfate: 1.1 mg/L

Zinc: .6 ug/L

Total Alkalinity: 30.6 mg/L

Calcium: 28 mg/L

Copper: 1.7 ug/L

Magnesium: 2.87 mg/L

Phosphate: 15 ug/L

Potassium: .5 mg/L

Silica: 9.7 mg/L

Sodium: 4.63 mg/L

Total Organic Carbon: 1.13 mg/L

 

Undetectable: Antimony, Arsenic, Asbestos, Beryllium, Bromate, Cadmium, Chromium, Cyanide, Mercury, Nickel, Nitrate-Nitrogen, Nitrite-Nitrogen, Selenium, Thallium, Silver, Bromide, Lead

 

Thanks in advance.

 

edited highlights

[StevieT]

Copper: 1.7 ug/L

 

copper is a killer long term in any reef tank.

 

I never recommend tap water, it is way too risky. This hobby is an investment in animals and an RO machine is rather cheap compared to other item you install or purchase. Or you can buy premade RO/DI.

 

Also, what is the TDS of this tap water?

[amnesiak]

TDS =? Total Dissolved Solids: 61.5 mg/L

 

Is 1.7ug/L a significant amount of copper? What does RO/DI spec at?

[Carinya]

When the water out of my RO/DI starts to read 4 TDS then I know it is time to change the DI resin. That 61 would worry me. Our tap reads at about a 40 TDS and I wouldn't use it. But that's just me.

[StevieT]

RO/DI = 0 TDS and 0 everything else. It is pure H20

 

The problem with inputting metals into the tank is that they are never removed. It will keep adding to the tank every time you do a water change. It maybe a year until you see an issue.

 

Others have done tap water, I just wouldn't risk my huge investment on saving a few dollars.

 

Tap in my new location is 150 (from lake michigan) I don't even want to know what it was at my old. I could see the minerals collect on vases after it evaped. Nasty

[amnesiak]

When the water out of my RO/DI starts to read 4 TDS then I know it is time to change the DI resin. That 61 would worry me. Our tap reads at about a 40 TDS and I wouldn't use it. But that's just me.

 

Thanks. Having never owned an RO/DI, and being new to the hobby, these are the nuggets I'm looking for.

[bzphotog]

good info here thanks

[amnesiak]

Tap in my new location is 150 (from lake michigan) I don't even want to know what it was at my old. I could see the minerals collect on vases after it evaped. Nasty

 

Yeah, I wouldn't use lake michigan water either. Our water is evaporation from the pacific that falls onto the mountains as snow and gets tapped in the foothills.

[amnesiak]

So, another thought - adding up the things that are present in significant quantities in natural sea water also present in Seattle tap water (all in mg/L or ppm):

Sodium: 4.63

Chloride: 5

Calcium: 28

Magnesium: 2.87

Sulfate: 1.1

Potassium: 0.5

Silicate: 9.7 (NSW is 3.0 in the referenced test, only counting 3.0 towards total)

Total: 45.1

 

Remaining TDS: 16.4

 

What about looking at it like this?

A lot of the trace elements (copper, iron, etc) line up closely with NSW compared to the first sample of Instant Ocean.

[shrimphombre]

so in recap, just like every other tap water thread

[amnesiak]

so in recap, just like every other tap water thread

 

If you could link a couple that have posted their city's analysis like I did, or broke it down in comparison to NSW, or used water with success or lack thereof from a similar area to mine, that would help a lot, because I couldn't find any... I just searched some more to make sure.

 

I did find this study (I don't fully buy the extrapolation methods) that seems to indicate the same trace elements will build up just due to your salt mix.

 

Maybe this should be in the water chemistry forum? Sorry mods...

[Mr. Fosi]

I mentioned my hometown's water analysis in my 5.5g thread but I didn't post it because I was too lazy to type it. Plus, I was only really interested in PO4 which ranged from 5-50 ppm depending on the time of the year.

[amnesiak]

I mentioned my hometown's water analysis in my 5.5g thread but I didn't post it because I was too lazy to type it. Plus, I was only really interested in PO4 which ranged from 5-50 ppm depending on the time of the year.

 

Did you ever figure out what time of year it was on the higher end of the range?

[BustytheSnowMaam]

When the water out of my RO/DI starts to read 4 TDS then I know it is time to change the DI resin. That 61 would worry me. Our tap reads at about a 40 TDS and I wouldn't use it. But that's just me.

 

Carinya-

 

That TDS number is actually quite low. Many TDS readings can be caused by something innocuous and naturally-occuring like calcium in the water.

 

OP-

 

I think your tap water sounds fine. I don't think the problems in my 30 are related to tap water, because I've used both tap and RO water and the problem remains the same.

[Mr. Fosi]

Summer time.

 

According to the head guy at the water works they used PO4 as a corrosion inhibitor. Apparently the form they were using (don't ask me which b/c I forgot to ask, it was some inorganic form for sure) forms a monatomic layer on the inside of the pipes and slows the metal atoms from entering solution.

 

He said that when the temps got higher during the summer, pipes that weren't buried far enough below-ground would corrode at a higher rate. They were especially worried about old lead pipe, locations of which they didn't know and who's existence was simply hypothesized.

 

I don't think the problems in my 30 are related to tap water, because I've used both tap and RO water and the problem remains the same.

 

You may be right but if you precipitated Cu out (which can easily occur in areas of high pH), you will have a source of Cu in the tank that won't go away overnight or even over months. The same may go for PO4.

 

This is one reason why you might not want to use kalk on a tank that uses tapwater. The last thing you want it is buildup of metal or phosphate precipitates. It would take a while to manifest itself and fixing it wouldn't be trivial.

 

Here's that report if you like: link

 

I used that water without problems for over a year but I didn't use kalk.

[SpankythePyro]

Read up also what happens when Chlorine mixes with your Saltwater....

 

It pretty much allows the chlorine to kill everything in the tank slowly because the element is never exhausted due to its reaction with the Sodium..

[AZDesertRat]

The biggest problem with most tap water is inconsistency. It may be fine today or at 8 AM today but say a storm rolls through at about noon that brings lots of surface runoff into the surface water impoundments feeding the treatment plant. Or it seeps into the ground where you have a shallow water table and possible municipal wells that are not sealed correctly. It happens.

Now the treatment changes, they add more chemicals to counteract the high solids in the water which changes the pH, alkalinity and any number of things that will carry through to the finished water you receive.

 

Now how about another scenario. Say they are constructing a new building on a vacant parcel of land just down the street from you and they di into the water main. It takes a crew awhile to get on sit, locate the isolation valves and get the main shut down. Mud and whatever else is in the soil enters the pipe. They make the repair, open a valve and flush the air and dirty water out a fire hydrant and put it back in service. The problem is its a 12 inch water main and they only flushed it out the 2.5 inch port on the fire hydrant so they never developed enough velocity to scour the pipe and actually get it clean. Again, this happens. It could be even worse and the nrighbor could have had his hose stuck in a tree well or horse trough not aware the main is being pumped out and you know have a backflow or backsiphonage of fertilizers or worse. It happens more often that you can imagine.

 

The moral of the story is use RO/DI, prefferably your own personal unit so you alone control the quality of your water. I use ours for drinking, ice maker, pet watering, cooking etc. so it was an easy purchase to make and the wife was completely on board from the beginning. She partially fills drinking water bottles with RO and freezes them so she has cold water with her at all times. Sure saves on both buying bottled crinking water plus keeps all those plastic bottles out of the landfill.

 

The chemical they feed is probably sodium hexametaphosphate, a common corrosion inhibitor.

[amnesiak]

Summer time.

 

Thanks.

 

Here's that report if you like: link

 

I used that water without problems for over a year but I didn't use kalk.

 

That's a great observation. I wasn't planning on using kalk.

I read through your 5.5g thread and didn't notice anything about problems from your tap water. I did notice the thing about corrosion inhibitance.

 

Here's a request for the board:

 

Anyone that has used tap water successfully, or anyone whose tap water was proven to be the cause of a problem, can you post a link to your municipal water report?

If you can describe the kind of plumbing you have in your house, and the problem you had, that'd help too... Maybe I can compile a table. If I get enough data I can do a statistical analysis on it.

[Mr. Fosi]

The biggest problem with most tap water is inconsistency.

 

Bingo.

 

The chemical they feed is probably sodium hexametaphosphate, a common corrosion inhibitor.

 

I'm gonna go look that up but it sounds like it has a PO4:Na ratio larger than 1:1.

[amnesiak]

Read up also what happens when Chlorine mixes with your Saltwater....

 

I know that's a nasty scenario. I plan to either boil if I have less time, or put water in a bucket with a powerhead and let it sit for a couple of days... I can get a Cl test kit to check these methods.

 

The biggest problem with most tap water is inconsistency. It may be fine today or at 8 AM today but say a storm rolls through at about noon that brings lots of surface runoff into the surface water impoundments feeding the treatment plant. Or it seeps into the ground where you have a shallow water table and possible municipal wells that are not sealed correctly. It happens.

 

The moral of the story is use RO/DI, prefferably your own personal unit so you alone control the quality of your water. I use ours for drinking, ice maker, pet watering, cooking etc. so it was an easy purchase to make and the wife was completely on board from the beginning.

 

Totally agree with you. The only exception is that I live in an area that is very stable, construction-wise. We've recently spent a lot of money moving all of our in-city reservoirs underground and building parks over them (I think it was a homeland security budget bonus). We don't use wells in this city, we have a ton of rain (that's our story to keep people out, but I'm sticking to it )

 

On the second point, I absolutely know it'd be an easy sell to my wife. I'm getting into this hobby partially because I have a love for science, and I think this particular question is interesting because it doesn't seem like it's been totally 'figured out.' There's an awesome solution (RO/DI) but no clear problem defined.

[Mr. Fosi]

Boil = energy intensive and a PITA

 

Bucket + powerhead works for Cl₂ treated water but not for chloramine IIRC. Maybe I missed it, but your water has no chloramine and you are reasonably certain it never will?

[AZDesertRat]

Every water system is vulnerable, there are no exceptions. One of our largest company offices is in Seattle and I can tell you stories but won't here. We perform vulnerability assesments on water and waste water systems around the globe and as i said none are exempt when it comes to water quality issues, same may be different but they all have problems.

I have seen real nice in ground reservoirs but they were easy to contaminate because the tank air vents were under concrete park benches on the roof and very easy to get to. Nothing is perfect.

[amnesiak]

Every water system is vulnerable, there are no exceptions. One of our largest company offices is in Seattle and I can tell you stories but won't here. We perform vulnerability assesments on water and waste water systems around the globe and as i said none are exempt when it comes to water quality issues, same may be different but they all have problems.

I have seen real nice in ground reservoirs but they were easy to contaminate because the tank air vents were under concrete park benches on the roof and very easy to get to. Nothing is perfect.

 

I have a relative that does a similar type of consulting on power grids - he's said the same type of things to me... It is truly scary how vulnerable our basic systems are. It's a definite huge minus to using tap water for a reef system.

 

On a semi-related note, for the first 3 years after 9/11, I always got the full search at airports. I figured out it was because someone with the same name in Portland OR plotted to contaminate the municipal water supply.

[amnesiak]

Boil = energy intensive and a PITA

 

Bucket + powerhead works for Cl₂ treated water but not for chloramine IIRC. Maybe I missed it, but your water has no chloramine and you are reasonably certain it never will?

 

I just verified that Seattle us)es Ozone + UV as the primary disinfectant and Chlorine (not Chloramine) as the secondary disinfectant.

 

Thanks for all the info thus far everyone. This is great stuff.

[Mike Maddox]

copper is a killer long term in any reef tank.

 

I never recommend tap water, it is way too risky. This hobby is an investment in animals and an RO machine is rather cheap compared to other item you install or purchase. Or you can buy premade RO/DI.

 

Also, what is the TDS of this tap water?

 

Just to toss this in, I've been using tap water and only tap water for 15 years this year on every marine and reef aquarium I've ever had. I wouldn't use an R/O unit to purify my water, they're too slow and wasteful. Cold-Steril's systems are nice, though. IMO all the treatment tapwater needs to to be run through a carbon block, and buffered if applicable. I use it straight out of the tap, though!

 

Now, on the commercial systems I consult for, I would never, ever recommend they use tapwater. o.O