uv sterilzer can they kill ich

[runyonh]

I have had a small ich outbreak and lost a fish. I was wondering if a uv sterlizer would help if I ran it for a couple of months? Would it cause problems with my featherdusters and clams? I Aslo feed my inversts and corlas live phyto plankton. Thanks for your help

[Urchinhead]

Depending on how you set it up and what strength it is it will kill the ich.

 

It will end up killing a percentage of your live plankton as well but I assume you are shutting off your pumps/powerheads when feeding so they won't get sucked in right away. Also since you should only be pulling 60ish gallons an hour through the thing you won't get all of the live stuff.

 

It also does a number on any free floating algae and other things in the water column. I now run a 9W Coralife instead of the more powerful 15W (I think its 18 actually) Gamma I used to have but I run it because I want a pristine tank and deal accordingly with the down sides of it which include a small water temperature increase and it killing off some portion of the live plankton in the water.

 

A good UV will cost you $100+ new though I will sell you my 15W Gamma for $40 as I don't need it anymore. PM me if you want it but to be honest I really don't think you need one or should use one for what you are looking to do.

 

Frankly it is much better though more of a pain in the rear to just run your tank fallow (no fish but corals and inverts are ok) for 6+ weeks to let it die off. 6-8 weeks seems to be the magic number to kill off ich. It will mean a QT tank for the fish (and you should treat them for ich as well as odds are they are colonized) for that time but you will for sure knock it down.

 

UH

[runyonh]

Thanks for the help some people say it wont help and others say it will.I am undecided on what to do at this point. Is their an easy way to catch fish out of a reef tank ya that is realy the hard part.

[el_vulture619]

Frankly it is much better though more of a pain in the rear to just run your tank fallow (no fish but corals and inverts are ok) for 6+ weeks to let it die off. 6-8 weeks seems to be the magic number to kill off ich. It will mean a QT tank for the fish (and you should treat them for ich as well as odds are they are colonized) for that time but you will for sure knock it down.

 

UH

 

I did this to my tank when I first set it up, I had some chromis that ended up covered in ich when my tank was only a month old. They died and I waited 6 weeks before adding another fish. The ich has not come back, hopefully...

 

I was buying some shrooms and zoos, they were fine. Later I added a clown and she been swimming ever since. IMO its better to wait than spend money, and this will let your tank cycle longer also. Using UV has that casualty of war clause.

[Urchinhead]

Thanks for the help some people say it wont help and others say it will.I am undecided on what to do at this point. Is their an easy way to catch fish out of a reef tank ya that is realy the hard part.

 

Some people who say it doesn't do anything are just flat out wrong. The reality (and this is very simplified) is that when you subject an organism to ultra violet radiation in a given wavelength for a set period of time then that organism will die. Period. Full stop. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Wishing upon a star doesn't make it any different.

 

The problem most face when trying to use UV Sterilizers in the hobby are one of four things(and many times all four).

 

1. They don't get the right wattage so it becomes not enough power output.

2. They don't clean the unit correctly which means performance degradation over time.

3. They run the water too fast through the unit which means not enough exposure to UV light.

4. The organism they are trying to kill is not active in large quantities in the water column which means that the UV light never touches the organism.

 

So it does kill things. Many times just not the way we want it to or in the numbers that we want. Run any free floating microorganism through a clean 15+ Watt UV Sterilizer at under 60 gallons per hour and you will kill it.

 

As to getting fish out you have a few choices. Do a fish trap:

http://www.riaquatics.com/free_fish_trap.htm

 

Or move your rocks. Or be very very patient.

[er1c_the_reefer]

i'm under the impression that UV sterilization only works if the organism has exposed DNA, meaning that the organisms tend to be small, like bacteria and viruses. larger organisms and organisms that can enter cyst-like encapsulated states can survive UV sterilization because the DNA isn't exposed or as exposed. furthermore, DNA does not necessarily kill an organism, but may just render it unable to reproduce. furthermore, certain organisms, even if damaged by UV rays, can undergo photoreactivation and repair the DNA.

 

therefore, there may be some truth when people say that UV sterilization doesn't work. of course, increased dwell time long enough and everything is killed, except for maybe the toughest of endospores.

[runyonh]

Thanks for the help Urchinhead and everone. I think im going to try the 18 wat turbo twist made by corallife at about 100 gallons an hour. I just want to kill the mico oranisms in the tank and I think this will do the trick.

 

 

Thanks for all the great info

[Gwoardnog]

ich would have to run through it to be killed. Ich on your fish wouldn't be running through it. And it's no guarantee all ich will run through it as ich doesn't always float in the water column.

[protege]

ich would have to run through it to be killed. Ich on your fish wouldn't be running through it. And it's no guarantee all ich will run through it as ich doesn't always float in the water column.

 

 

Very true. All fish have ich (from what I have read). The ich is fought off by the fish's immune system. When the system becomes stressed, it becomes less effective. This allows the ich to multiply. When the ich is then in the water system, it typically stays there for an extended period of time. Usually in the substrate. Ich does not "free swim" in the water, and therefore UV sterilizers have a minimal effect. However, the "free swimming" ich, can be killed by the UV sterilizer if flow is slow. So, as an ich preventer? UV=no, stressfree=yes. UV is best to help with algae outbreaks as it can kill many types.

[runyonh]

I agree with what your saying. I know it wont kill all ich. However if it kills microrganism and impoves the water quailty for the fish. Then Cleaner water = better resistance to ich and other parsite organisms. If that makes any since. I have herd people say dont waste your money, and after doing research I think it might help. This article answerd alot of questions for me, thanks for the help and the opions it means alot to a newbe to get some solid advice. Thanks

 

 

http://americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquari...rilization.html

[Urchinhead]

i'm under the impression that UV sterilization only works if the organism has exposed DNA, meaning that the organisms tend to be small, like bacteria and viruses. larger organisms and organisms that can enter cyst-like encapsulated states can survive UV sterilization because the DNA isn't exposed or as exposed. furthermore, DNA does not necessarily kill an organism, but may just render it unable to reproduce. furthermore, certain organisms, even if damaged by UV rays, can undergo photoreactivation and repair the DNA.

 

therefore, there may be some truth when people say that UV sterilization doesn't work. of course, increased dwell time long enough and everything is killed, except for maybe the toughest of endospores.

 

Pardon me I should have been more clear. You are correct Eric. I left out that part as I was thinking in my own head we were only talking about microorganisms at the scale of virus' and bacterium and in some cases free floating parasites with the ability to enter cyst-like encapsulated states.

 

However if you read my post again I do point out that it will kill 100% of the time , as you also state, depending duration of exposure to a set spectrum and intensity level. And this includes humans. I also note that I was simplifying the issue substantially per my post.

 

My over all point was that it is effective against certain microorganisms that are in the water column but does nothing to organisms that are not. I was also reacting at an emotional level to the people who state, incorrectly, that UV Radiation is ineffective. I firmly believe that the reason it is ineffective is not due to the fact that UV Radiation doesn't do harm either by modification to DNA strands or at a more gross level what amounts to a burn but that the majority of users who don't have success don't use it properly.

 

UH

 

Thanks for the help Urchinhead and everone. I think im going to try the 18 wat turbo twist made by corallife at about 100 gallons an hour. I just want to kill the mico oranisms in the tank and I think this will do the trick.

 

 

Thanks for all the great info

 

Frankly mate you are better off just running the tank fallow. A 18W unit is very expensive for the benefit you will gain from it. I do use one on my tank as one, and I stress here ONE, of the tools in my toolbox to fight parasites, nuisance algae, and the like over the long term but it isn't the only thing I use and I made my decision based on a cost benefit analysis that penciled out for me as appropriate. I would not use it for something specific like a one time Ich removal tool. That is just too expensive.

 

If you do decide to do it 100 gallons an hour may be what the unit says is effective but you really want to slow it down to more like 60 or less. The longer the organism spends exposed to the radiation source the more damage will occur. You will also have to watch out for rises in your tank temp as that much UV will heat your water.

 

UH

[dtfleming]

Anyone use the Cadlights drop-in UV?

[Oceanic 30g]

Urchinhead...

Clear me up here...

 

I was told that UV was great for a fish only tank. Had one and used it and it worked as far as I could tell. The main caution I received was to run the water through at the recommended rate so that it would kill all the bad guys.

 

With reef, I was cautioned by my lfs not to use one because it could kill the good stuff in the water as well.

 

True or not true.

 

Probably the oversimplification you cautioned about in the aforementiond paragraph, but enlighten me please.

[Urchinhead]

Urchinhead...

Clear me up here...

 

I was told that UV was great for a fish only tank. Had one and used it and it worked as far as I could tell. The main caution I received was to run the water through at the recommended rate so that it would kill all the bad guys.

 

With reef, I was cautioned by my lfs not to use one because it could kill the good stuff in the water as well.

 

True or not true.

 

Probably the oversimplification you cautioned about in the aforementiond paragraph, but enlighten me please.

 

short answer is that it is fine for a reef tank as well.

 

You have to run it through at the recommended rate or slower in order to get the full effect for the thing you are trying to take care of. IE: Ich or Algae.

 

As to it killing off the 'good stuff'... The reality is that it is going to be an indiscriminate killer of both good and bad things in the water column including some zoo & phyto plankton but due to its slow rate of flow it isn't going to get everything all at once nor is it going to kill everything as zoo plankton are not exclusively single celled organisms.

 

What I would do when I was feeding my coral was to shut off the all but one of my power heads and the UV unit for 45 minutes dump the 'food' into the tank and let the power head that was still up and going move it around. If you look at my RSM thread you will see my toadstool coral feeding itself.

 

So for me in the end it was a plus because I am hyper sensitive to algae problems and it made more sense for me to suffer the hit on the 'good stuff' to take care of the 'bad stuff'

[runyonh]

I plan on running a uv sterlizer at night only for 12 to 8 hours and cut it off during the day. I also feed my corals and featerdusters live Phyto Plankton. This will cut down on the heat in the tank and allow phyto to come back some during the day so its not a total kill off. I work in a local hospital in the radioloigy department. I know this about Radiation it does kill cells. If enough exposer is applied even when you get a chest xray it kills or mutates minimal amounts of cells have CT you kill more cells. It all depends on the amount exposure. In nature Uv is natural, I have power compact lights very little if any Uv expsoure. So I do think a uv unit will help. I do not belive it is the answer to my ich problem. Hower I do belive that it will improve the over all health of the tank, and that will help the fish immune system to improve. Thus in the end better resistance to ich.

[Urchinhead]

Cheers mate. And since you work in Radiology (my wife is an MSRN working in a Radiation Oncology Unit) you know that it isn't the UV A that is what is getting irradiated it is UV B which is the nasty stuff. (I am really saying this for other people here ;>) Oh and it will whack some of the ich in the water column.

 

UH

[Atlantis Reef]

Urchin couldn't say it better! I ran a pet store and going to open one also very soon. My experience with uv was to the tee of what urchin said

[runyonh]

True, True Urchinhead Ya there is all kinds of radiation Gama xray uv I could go on. Your advise is right on and very helpfull. Thank you all for your opinions and help.

 

Also for those who don't belive in UV dont wear sunscreen when you go to the beach and see how long it takes to get Melanoma. Cancer is a mutaion of the Cell.

[er1c_the_reefer]

again, the problem is that not every gets melanoma (some people have genetic predisposition to it, others don't) and some people do wear sunscreen or stay inside. so with that analogy, the sun being your UV sterilizer, i can just as easily say that some organisms are immune to UV sterilization (via photo reactivation), whereas others can enter a cyst or spore like state and become protected against it, while other organisms still don't get exposed to the UV at all because they aren't in the water column. cancerous mutation of the genes does not necessarily cause the cell to die, but instead inactivates the genes that code for apoptosis and activation of oncogenes, which causes unchecked proliferation of cells, something totally different that killing off cells.

 

that said, i'm a supporter of the use of UV because it does help reduce the chances of getting infections, but the best way get rid of it is prevention by quarantine and be keeping up immune system of your animals.

[HecticDialectics]

again, the problem is that not every gets melanoma (some people have genetic predisposition to it, others don't) and some people do wear sunscreen or stay inside. so with that analogy, the sun being your UV sterilizer, i can just as easily say that some organisms are immune to UV sterilization (via photo reactivation), whereas others can enter a cyst or spore like state and become protected against it, while other organisms still don't get exposed to the UV at all because they aren't in the water column. cancerous mutation of the genes does not necessarily cause the cell to die, but instead inactivates the genes that code for apoptosis and activation of oncogenes, which causes unchecked proliferation of cells, something totally different that killing off cells.

 

that said, i'm a supporter of the use of UV because it does help reduce the chances of getting infections, but the best way get rid of it is prevention by quarantine and be keeping up immune system of your animals.

 

 

+1

 

Happy fish are healthy fish.

[runyonh]

While I don't disagree with what you say not everyone gets melanoma, because of their gentic dispostion. Its not that you are geting Radation. You are radiated every day, by the sun. It is the amount of Radation exposure at a given time. For that mater you can even use radation to kill cancer. For example there is a diagnostic machine called a Cyberknife where pinpoint radation is used to kill tumors. Yes radiation kills cells and mutates cells in an unnatual way causing damage to that cell. If enough radation is applyed the cell will die. Futhermore I never said that Quarantine was useless, and I never said Uv was a magical device that would answer all my ich and water quailty problems. You must be a nurse, becuse while you understand some of the mechanics you do not realize its the amount of radation exsposure. To much Radiation=Cell destruction.

 

 

Radiation Exposure

Radiation is energy that travels in the form of waves or high-speed particles. It occurs naturally in sunlight and sound waves. Man-made radiation is used in X-rays, nuclear weapons, nuclear power plants and cancer treatment.

 

If you are exposed to small amounts of radiation over a long time, it raises your risk of cancer. It can also cause mutations in your genes, which you could pass on to any children you have after the exposure. A lot of radiation over a short period can cause burns or radiation sickness. Symptoms of radiation sickness include nausea, weakness, hair loss, skin burns and reduced organ function. If the exposure is large enough, it can cause premature aging or even death. You may be able to take medicine to reduce the radioactive material in your body.

 

Environmental Protection Agency

[er1c_the_reefer]

indeed, i am a nursing student, as implied by the big caduceus with the fat N in the middle.

 

and yes, i've studied about the gamma knife. but i never said radiation didn't kill organisms, i was stating that there's a difference between killing an organism and causing cancerous mutations. large doses of acute radiation is usually fatal, which is what we're referring to when dealing with when talking about UV sterilizers, however, chronic exposure to low dose radiation can cause mutations, which is what you were referencing when talking about exposure to sunlight. this isn't a nursing thing, this is a basic pathophysiology. furthermore, you should also differentiate that the gamma and x-ray exposure used on humans for cancer treatment is of different spectrum than that of UV. gamma and x-rays have much higher potential to do damage because they're higher frequency and having more ionizing potential than UV rays do. but then again, you already knew this, it's high school physics.

[runyonh]

While you are right diffeent levels of radadation and differnt types have differnt effects. However Radation is all about expsosure. Yes UV is a hamfull as Gama or Xray, Apha or Beta. The sun is a radioactive shpear. Next time you go to class ask your instructor about why the radioloigy staff wear Dosimeter. Then go ask the Radation Safty officer if it is all right to leave your Dosimeter Badge in the car in the hot sun and see what he or she says. Also if you dont think UV is just as damaging as other forms of radation ask the coral reefs its not the only reason they are dying all over the world but it is killing them.

 

What is melanoma?

Melanoma is a kind of skin cancer. It is not as common as other types of skin cancer, but it is the most serious.

 

 

Related Articles

Skin Cancer, Melanoma - Treatment Overview

Skin Cancer, Nonmelanoma - Topic Overview

» More overview Articles

 

Melanoma can affect your skin only, or it may spread to your organs and bones. Luckily, it can be cured if it’s found and treated early.

 

What causes melanoma?

You can get melanoma by spending too much time in the sun. This causes normal skin cells to become abnormal. These abnormal cells quickly grow out of control and attack the tissues around them.

 

Melanoma tends to run in families. Other things in your family background can increase your chances of getting the disease. For example, you may have abnormal, or atypical, moles. Atypical moles may fade into the skin and have a flat part that is level with the skin. They may be smooth or slightly scaly, or they may look rough and “pebbly.” These moles don't cause cancer by themselves. But having many of them is a sign that melanoma may run in your family.

 

What are the symptoms?

The main sign of melanoma is a change in a mole or other skin growth, such as a birthmark. Any change in the shape, size, or color of a mole may be a sign of melanoma.

 

Melanoma may grow in a mole or birthmark that you already have. But melanomas usually grow in unmarked skin. They can be found anywhere on your body. Most of the time, they are on the upper back in men and women and on the legs of women.

 

Melanoma looks like a flat, brown or black mole that has uneven edges. Melanomas usually have an irregular or asymmetrical shape. This means that one half of the mole doesn't match the other half. Melanoma moles or marks can be 6 mm (0.2 in.) or larger.

 

Unlike a normal mole or mark, a melanoma can:

 

Change color.

Be lumpy or rounded.

Become crusty, ooze, or bleed.

How is melanoma diagnosed?

Your doctor will check your skin to look for melanoma. If your doctor thinks you have melanoma, he or she will remove a sample of tissue from the area around the melanoma (biopsy). Another doctor, called a pathologist, will look at the tissue to check for cancer cells.

 

If your biopsy shows melanoma, you may need to have more tests to find out if it has spread to your lymph nodes.

 

How is it treated?

The most common treatment is surgery to remove the melanoma. That is all the treatment that you may need for early-stage melanomas that have not spread to other parts of your body.

 

Depending on where the melanoma is on your body, and how thick it is, the surgery to remove it may leave a scar. You might need another surgery to repair this scar.

 

After surgery, your doctor will want to see you every 3 to 6 months for the next 5 years. During these visits, your doctor will check to see if the cancer has returned and if you have any new melanomas.

 

If your melanoma is very deep or has spread to your lymph nodes, you may need medicine called interferon to fight the cancer cells.

 

Can you prevent melanoma?

The best way to prevent all kinds of skin cancer, including melanoma, is to protect yourself whenever you are out in the sun. It’s important to avoid exposure to the sun’s ultraviolet (UV) rays.

 

Try to stay out of the sun during the middle of the day (from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m.).

Wear protective clothes when you are outside, such as a hat that shades your face, a long-sleeved shirt, and long pants.

Get in the habit of using sunscreen every day. Your sunscreen should have an SPF of least 15. Look for a sunscreen that protects against both types of UV radiation in the sun's rays—UVA and UVB.

Use a higher SPF when you are at higher elevations.

Avoid sunbathing and tanning salons.

Check your skin every month for odd marks, moles, or sores that will not heal. Pay extra attention to areas that get a lot of sun, such as your hands, arms, and back. Ask your doctor to check your skin during regular physical exams or at least once a year. Even though the biggest cause of melanoma is spending too much time in the sun, it can be found on parts of your body that never see the sun.

[er1c_the_reefer]

While you are right diffeent levels of radadation and differnt types have differnt effects. However Radation is all about expsosure. Yes UV is a hamfull as Gama or Xray, Apha or Beta. The sun is a radioactive shpear. Next time you go to class ask your instructor about why the radioloigy staff wear Dosimeter. Then go ask the Radation Safty officer if it is all right to leave your Dosimeter Badge in the car in the hot sun and see what he or she says. Also if you dont think UV is just as damaging as other forms of radation ask the coral reefs its not the only reason they are dying all over the world but it is killing them.

 

 

but i'm talking about chronic vs. acute exposure of different types of radiation. the reason why you wear the dosimeter is to measure exposure to radiation of radiology staff. they're being exposed to indirect and low level radiation (they're not directly in focus of rays, they're also wearing lead vests) all day long, for years, which is not the same as a single, large dose of radiation from say... a nuclear reactor explosion. chronic low level radiation mutates and acute (or chronic for that matter) high level radiation kills. see link here for explanation. i'm not going to deny that sun exposure causes damage in the long term, perhaps over years, but if you stick the dosimeter in the sun for 5 minutes, its not the same as sticking it under the x-ray for 5 minutes. and yes, we've already covered melanoma. remember your ABCDE's.

 

as for the reefs of the world, there's a lot more than UV exposure that's killing them. it probably plays a role, but there's other factors, including ocean acidification, various wasting diseases (black band, white band, yellow band, etc.) caused by viruses and bacteria (see also african dust), oxygen starvation caused by fertilizer run offs, dynamite fishing, tourism (even sunscreens tourist wear can kill corals on contact), etc. all of which have to be taken into account.

 

anyways, we digressed beyond the point of this thread: UV sterilization FTW

[runyonh]

No you are wrong radiology staff are exsposed to radiation everyday. They do not where lead vests every day, during certin procdures staff were vests. Vests do not protect the staff 100% from exsposure. We are hit with xray and gama ray every day you do not know what you are talking about. A day at the beach gives you more radiation than a chest xray. Although it is a different spectrum it is just as harmfull if not more. Your point is week and you are trying to argue over apples and organges. Radiation is Radiation in comes in all froms and you are mistaken if you think concentrated exspousure is all that counts. Piolts have increased Radiation exsposure because they fly closer to the sun. Just because you know some part of Medical field, does not mean that you know it all. It is a huge field and their is alot to learn. While I admire your tenacity your point to me has no validation. As for coral reefs what I said was that UV radiaiton was having an affect on them. I did not say this is the only reason they are dying, read closer next time. Yes many things cause corals to die pollution, people, parrot fish, melting of polar ice caps, changes in water tempature. ect ect. ect.

 

Also if you dont think UV is just as damaging as other forms of radiation ask the coral reefs its not the only reason they are dying all over the world but it is killing them.Radiation Exposure

 

Radiation is energy that travels in the form of waves or high-speed particles. It occurs naturally in sunlight and sound waves. Man-made radiation is used in X-rays, nuclear weapons, nuclear power plants and cancer treatment.

 

If you are exposed to small amounts of radiation over a long time, it raises your risk of cancer. It can also cause mutations in your genes, which you could pass on to any children you have after the exposure. A lot of radiation over a short period can cause burns or radiation sickness. Symptoms of radiation sickness include nausea, weakness, hair loss, skin burns and reduced organ function. If the exposure is large enough, it can cause premature aging or even death. You may be able to take medicine to reduce the radioactive material in your body.

 

Environmental Protection Agency

 

 

 

 

 

No one is taking about nuclear weapons or reactors. We were discussing little old UV sterlizers if you want to talk about radiation exsposure of that magnitude you will have to go to the weapons of mass destruction fourm.