Dendronephthya sp. discussion forum

[crrichey]

I wish to utilize this forum to help better understand the care and husbandry of dendronephthya sp. Just because most of us here on NR are not scientists, that doesn't mean that we cannot have an informative and productive talk about this hard-to-keep species. I would like to start by providing a few credible web pages on dendronephthya sp.

 

Eric Bornemen

 

Eric on food

 

Adam Blundell

 

Please feel free to link other informative web pages!

 

Although still in the planning stage, I have been working on a system that hopfully recreates the proper conditions for dendronephthya. However, before I am to add coral, I would run the system as if the corals were currently in place, to see whether or not the system will crash. This would involve daily feedings and waterchanges, light schedule, etc. Currently I plan on using a 20 gallon with a 29 gallon sump. I am debating whether to use a skimmer or not.

[tinyreef]

inu,

i was going to post this in the other nephth thread but since you broke one out specifically.

 

Dr. Charles Matthews

 

dr. matthews is the guy i mentioned in the other thread. he had written an article in fama last winter(?) on nephths. it's his pet project, i guess. i like sarcos, he likes nephths.

 

"some people juggle geese."

 

anyways, i'm still reading thru it actually. i just stumbled across it a couple of days ago (dates from feb. '05). but so far, he's come up with some interesting points (again, only halfway thru).

 

cooler temperature is one. based on the predominant zones where nephths are found, this is very logical.

 

steady laminar-flow versus surge-flow was another issue. however, i disagree with the calculations to reach the desired flows and their logic in deducing the amounts needed. they are forgetting they are in a closed-system imo.

 

it's a good read so far though. and dr. matthews fama column (still relatively new) is pretty good imo.

[crrichey]

IMO I think the new seio pumps are ideal for creating the correct flow in such a system. Just today I found a 20 gallon barrel liner at lowes for $20. What I was thinking was to simply have a pair of seios, one on each side facing the the same direction. Both would be set on timers with intervals of 6 hours. In other words, one would pump water one way for 6 hours, turn off, and the other would pump watch in the opposite direction for 6 hours.

[tinyreef]

chin,

part of the issue though is whether or not laminar flow is even correct. i believe it is but that doesn't necessarily mean matthews' assumption of that is.

 

in the wild, would these corals even experience changing-currents like you're suggesting? don't get me wrong it's a good idea, i'm just ignorant of the actual wild habitats of these corals (other than from quick snapshots). the new icecap pumps are promising too imo.

 

another possibility is the wave 2k but setup on one-side sending waves lengthways (also like your suggestion) but to a overflow rather than just rebounding back as in most tanks. you could also apply the overflow to your idea, i'm just trying to avoid cancelling the wave motion or laminar flow.

 

btw, thanks for confusing the heck outta me, inu/chin. i was used to you being inu yasha.

 

that's it, i'm calling you 787 from now on.

[knosch09]

I'm sorry to say this, but it just doesnt sound like you should even try this...

[crrichey]

I'm sorry to say this, but it just doesnt sound like you should even try this...

 

Thanks for you negative comments

 

in the wild, would these corals even experience changing-currents like you're suggesting? don't get me wrong it's a good idea,

 

This corresponds with the changing tides, which cause a great amount of the water movement in the oceans.

 

I have been trying to get my name changed for a LONG time now

[tinyreef]

This corresponds with the changing tides, which cause a great amount of the water movement in the oceans.

but do these corals experience such tidal changes?

 

they seem (again, photos-only exp for me) to exist in more sheltered zones and/or deeper zones. areas where you would either see low movement or laminar movement from underwater currents created by different water temperature zones (thermoclines?) rather than tidal surges/flows.

 

i know they are also found in some shallow waters though so the temperature thing is not a slamdunk theory yet in my mind. but the cooler water may equal more planktonic food source (e.g. north atlantic), which most agree is a main issue with these corals.

 

I have been trying to get my name changed for a LONG time now

attention all female reefers, i will now be known as "lookslikebradpitt36".

 

please change your address books, tyvm.

[tinyreef]

hey, 787! i just read up to the part where you started posting (page 7 out of 11, so far).

 

it's a good read so far, i'm surprised you didn't post the link.

[crrichey]

I simply forgot to!

 

When we are talking about tidal flows, we are talking about inconcivable amounts of water being pushed and pulled. The effects the moon and sun have on the ocean are incredible, tides account for much of the oceans movement. I also believe that a continuous current in the same direction could deform any coral, which is not the case when you look at wild colonies. Not to say that upwellings caused by thermal irregularities don't account for anything, IMHO they are more important in providing the marine snow that many filter feeders require. What confuses me is the well-accepted idea that dendronephthya feed almost exclusivly on phytoplankton. IMO this would contradict the way most currents flow. Most corals (including dendronephthya) live in tropical areas. This is where cold water raises, which brings up marine snow. However, phytoplankton cannot exist at such a depth, due to their need for light.

 

The only way that these corals could recieve adequate phytoplankon (in darker areas of the fore reef, not including well lit zones of the reef) is to live in artic areas, where the warm water cools and sinks to the bottom. This could also help explain their positioning in certain areas of the reef. They tend to grow from a ledge or roof of a cave. These areas would be better suited for slowing the flow of water, which would entrap marine snow in higher quantities.

[tinyreef]

hmm, i didn't get the opinion that phyto was the accepted food source from that thread. maybe you mean from the other sources? i'll check those out soon, altho i think i've read most of the rkm one already.

 

i'm still inclined to think that nephths are bacteriovores or have some kind of bacteria symbionts or relationships like their photosynthetic cousins have with zooxanth symbionts. their typical locations and the comment matthews said about well-fed fish cages (abundant fish feces/waste) just seemed to me like areas where fecal matter/marine snow could settle or dominate. his other comments on shrimp larvae issues with (controlling) bacteria/pathogen problems from their typical probiotic foods also tie in another link imo. all of these "links" are tenuous though but maybe enough of them can be tied in to secure that theory.

 

while i agree tidal motion is one of the dominant forces of the ocean and powers much of the reef or is the reason for some of it's properties (calcerous skeletons); the softies (whether it's nephths or sarcos or sinus) sometimes develop without the tidal aspect dominating their existence. e.g. lagoonal soft corals, deep-water/sheltered sun corals, reef-flat softies, etc. the tidal motion affects these corals but not nearly in the magnitude of the stonys. wave action, in the traditional sense, just may not be as critical for nephths imo. but the obvious spicule presence in nephths leads me to believe they are evolved to withstand some flow (probably laminar like matthews postulates) but i just don't believe it's the tidal flow most think of.

 

their body-type doesn't match the sinus, a strong spicule-dominated base but willowy top for wave motion. nor does it match the sarcos, medium base/stem with large top area-for sunlight.

 

they match better with the arboreal colts and caps, just minus the sunlight need. in fact, they look very much like colts but without the spicules and drab coloring.

 

nephths look rigid (when inflated), but not meant for willowy back-and-forth motions. their intricate and extensive branching shows me passive-capture on the water column versus sunlight gathering like colts. it could be colts are their cousins that made the zooxanth partnership while the nephths stayed in the shadows.

[steelhealr]

ChinChek787....I applaude the thread you started. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with taking on the challenge of trying to support a particular difficult coral, especially when you are heavily researching it and actually designing your system to sustain it. Kudos to tinyreef for jumping in.

 

I don't think negative comments are indicated here. Good luck with your project. I"m curious to see how you make out and I've subscribed to your thread and hope to see how you do with dendronephtya. SH

[Caesar777]

I can't interject here. All I want to put out there is a book to consult for taxonomy: Soft Corals and Sea Fans by Katharina Fabricus and Philip Alderslade. Excellent book; I own it. It's not about husbandry, though, although not much is out there on the topic. The key is keeping enormous amounts of plankton constantly in suspension while keeping the water quality up.

[Haagenize]

this is very cool!

[crrichey]

Soft Corals and Sea Fans by Katharina Fabricus and Philip Alderslade

 

My lfs has a copy, however, it costs about $60! I should just go on Amazon.com and find a used one.

 

hmm, i didn't get the opinion that phyto was the accepted food source from that thread

 

Pretty much every book and web page I have ever read suggests that dendronephthya feed on phytoplanton. I really have a hard time believing this. If we are talking JUST about dendronephthya, then how exactly is phytoplanton making its way down to colonies that are in almost pitch black region? What I am starting to think is that one or two respectable people suggested the notion, and everyone took it as fact. To my knowlegde, I havn't seen a single study that proves dedndronephthya eat phytoplankton, only that their polyp's tenticals and other aspects of the coral itself suggest that they do. If I remember correctly, their polyps are incapable of capturing anything larger than zooplankton.

 

I have another question. Does anybody know how tollerable dendronephthya are to nitrate and phosphates? There may be a corrilation between water chemistry and the availability of phytoplankton. Phytoplankto utilize nitrate and phsophate just like any other algae. So wouldn't it rational to suggest that perhaps dendronephthya are capable of living in a nitrate/phosphate rich enviroment, as this is one of the only areas that large blooms of phytoplankton occur?

[Six]

chin- ive been looking for that book cheaper as well. LMK if you find it. Amazon, my tried and true standby does not have any copies that cost much less with shipping.

[tinyreef]

i'd agree with you on the questionable logic/absence of proof that leads to phyto being a food source.

 

i'd really like to hear from divers on what they've seen (pictures and personal accounts) and felt (temperature & flow/current).

 

even to just know what other local livestock/corals are found within the vicinity. most of what i've seen is a nephth-dominated zone though. they seem to outcompete (or won by default) everything in their zone.

 

i would think it's 'outcompete' though as crinoids, bryozoans, tubas, etc. can exist in those same zones iirc.

 

their coloration has always been a puzzle to me too. if they were all red i could understand (maybe prefers deep-water environment) but you see orange and yellows along with the red, often interspersed. is it diet? (e.g. microcrustacean for the red) but what for the orange and yellow though?

[crrichey]

Thoughs colors do not appear at lower depths, as light in thoughs spectums doesn't penentrate deep enough. In fact, it could simply be a form of camoflage, as they would be difficult to see in the dark (as many fish species feed on corals).

 

Concerning location, you can find many species of photosynthetic corals along with dendronephthya. However, many of these species are adapted for lower-light regions, along with different growth patterns. Many of these corals grow in such a way so that they can obtain as much light as possible, forming plates or table-tops. These growth forms also correspond with lower flow rates, as these growth forms are more likely to break. This indicates that the flow rate in this area is relatively slow. This would allow filter feeding corals a better opportunity to capture prey.

[tinyreef]

Thoughs colors do not appear at lower depths, as light in thoughs spectums doesn't penentrate deep enough. In fact, it could simply be a form of camoflage, as they would be difficult to see in the dark (as many fish species feed on corals).

that's my point though, why not all red? monchromatic corals aren't unheard of, in fact i think they're the most common form.

 

Concerning location, you can find many species of photosynthetic corals along with dendronephthya.

i didn't realize some photosynths regularly coexisted with nephths. i've seen pics of nephths in pitch black though. i think the coexistence with photosynths are occasional rather than norm. maybe the transient zone between photosynth dominance and non-photosynth dominance?

 

there's also spectrum-shift abilities of the lower-light corals but it still doesn't explain the coloration variation in nephths which (as far as we know) do not utilize light in any spectrum.

 

These growth forms also correspond with lower flow rates, as these growth forms are more likely to break. This indicates that the flow rate in this area is relatively slow. This would allow filter feeding corals a better opportunity to capture prey.

i tend to agree on the slow flow. still wondering if it really is steady, intermittent, laminar, chaotic, tidal-based, thermo-based, or maybe commensural in a way(?).

[Caesar777]

Support your local lfs; buy the book there. My boss gave me my copy.

[crrichey]

It may simply be their pigmentation due to variation. In other words, for thoughs of you who understand evolution, individual corals may have changed their in order to adapt to their surroundings, eventually becoming different species, and colonating similar areas.

 

Im begining to think that I should run a phytoplankton refugium (as there is no evidence that they DONT eat pytoplankton). A phytoplankton refugium would also help decrease nitrates and phosphates. A simple clear container with a light and a UV filter to prevent contamination would work well. Use an aqua lifter pump to feed the UV filter, that way the flow through the refugium wouldn't wash it out completely.

 

You snuck that one in on my caesar! That's easy for you to say, you got yours for free!!!

[Caesar777]

I know, I know. And I'm f-in' poor, to boot. Now, then... That situation has been tried time and time again. Believe it or not. They eat much more than just phyto....Zooplankton, bacteria of various kinds (many of which are endemic to certain areas and are impossible to isolate and culture in captivity, I'm sure), the list goes on and on.

[crrichey]

well zooplankton is just a simple matter of setting up another refugium below the phytoplankton and allowing the zooplankton to feed on some of the phytoplankton. There are several good marine snow blends on the market, it's just a matter of finding one that will provide the correct size.

 

a par of breeding clowns might be another good addition if you don't mind the larvae getting eaten

 

also, addressing the flow issue, the last link I posted stated:

 

Great efforts have been made to create laminar flow recreating tide patterns along reef drop offs (Delbeek 2002).

 

To me this would indicate flow that changed every 6 hours.

 

Also

 

These corals are found in waters (doing best) with flow rates between 5 cm/sec and 25 cm/sec (2 in/sec and 10 in/sec).

 

So a laminar flow between 2 and 10 in/second that alternates every 6 hours sounds like the most accurate flow pattern. My guess is that the flow decreases as the tide reaches its peak (the water is completely in or completely out) and increase as the tide changes between the two.

[Caesar777]

There's still the issue of food. You can't just culture "phytoplankton" and "zooplankton". You can do one species at a time, and who knows how many hundreds of species the coral eats. It goes beyond that--many of these filter-feeding animals are found to eat bacteria and other things that, again, we can't pinpoint, much less culture. (Though it'd be possible--get on that.)

 

Then there's the issue of keeping a constant suspension of all these foods while keeping the water quality pristine... Water changes would eventually get to be too much for most-anyone.

[tinyreef]

...as there is no evidence that they DONT eat pytoplankton).

good point. it can't hurt imo.

 

a par of breeding clowns might be another good addition if you don't mind the larvae getting eaten.

you might want to try shrimp instead. maybe marine ghost shrimp. they breed like crazy and are fed simply, i.e. flake. i've got to think that their larvae is even smaller than fish and/or their wastes are smaller in ratio too (whichever the nephths feed on).

 

Then there's the issue of keeping a constant suspension of all these foods while keeping the water quality pristine... Water changes would eventually get to be too much for most-anyone.

actually, i've been thinking about a setup for this for a while (kinda like my sunlit pico). more for raising mandarins but i think it can be used indirectly for nephths.

 

a heavily fed top tank (e.g. mandarin-species or seahorse tank, maybe even predator tank), overflows into a display nephth tank (maybe shadowed or low-light), then into a stocked sump and back up to the top.

 

this may provide the fine food (bits of leftovers, fecal matter, detritus, etc.), suspension, and filtration needed. still working out some of the finer flow issues and tank placement (because i want sunlit/phyto, which i think will help significantly). this was one of the setups i was thinking of after tearing down the sun pico (that i'm not tearing down now ).

[crrichey]

You can't just culture "phytoplankton" and "zooplankton". You can do one species at a time, and who knows how many hundreds of species the coral eats.

 

Well you wouldn't culture them in the same refugium. Zooplankton feed on phytoplankton, and phytoplankton use light. It has been done before (Marine Fish and Reef USA vol. 2002 pg. 84). The author created a hydrogen peroxide/UV reactor to oxidize organic matter so that the phyto culture wouldn't be contaiminated. He then feed the phyto to the zooplankton, and that water returned to the aquarium, containing both phytoplankton and zooplankton.