I think I murdered my Live rock :(

[clifford513]

Veddy, veddy interesting!

[AirManFL]

Could they have peed in your salt mix?

 

It doesn't matter how long the water sits in the brute, it should never have NH3 in it.

 

No, that would be impossible....

 

HAHA...I'm reading this to my wife and she starts to say: Honey, I forgot to mention..LOL.

 

Anyways...no way the dogs could have peed in the water or salt mix. They're inside dogs and I mix the salt in the garage...

 

Keep in mind, the tests that I showed you aren't from the can with saltwater in it. Thats stored ro/di water in a brute can which has never had anything in it other than ro/di water, a pump which was brand new when I put it in the can, and a vinyl hose. I use that to pump the water from the ro/di can to the saltwater can where I mix in the salt.

 

Rob

[Mr. Fosi]

Right, right...

 

If it were me, I would have the water tested by someone else with a different brand kit before I dump it all.

 

Just a hunch, do you see the NH3 after you mix some salt in?

[AirManFL]

Right, right...

 

If it were me, I would have the water tested by someone else with a different brand kit before I dump it all.

 

Just a hunch, do you see the NH3 after you mix some salt in?

 

Whats weird is that the brute can that I have had saltwater mixed up with for quite some time is the same way. It shows .50 to 1.0 ppm of ammonia as well. It's been stored for about a month.

 

Hmmm...I could try it. Could you recommend a small ratio for me to try? I don't want to waste a bunch of salt.

 

Maybe x amount of salt to a quart of this skanky water? I use Tropic Marin.

 

I'll take a sample to my LFS tomorrow and have them test it.

 

Rob

[lgreen]

This one took a little longer.

And my response:

I also took the liberty of emailing the prof who taught chem o. last semester. She's an PhD from MIT for those who care. (just joshin' you lgreen ) She reminded me of the rule-of-thumb value for CO2 and O2 equilibration: CO2 takes roughly 10x a long. That is approx. one order of magnitude, which exceeds the "not too different" statement I made earlier. So, mea culpa.

So then, if it takes 5 min for oxygen to equilibrate in IO-mixed artificial seawater (as it did in the graph two pages ago) it will take approximately 50 min for CO2 to do the same. During this time, you may or may not see a pH change depending on the buffering system in your salt mix.

 

If you are heavily buffered = no change.

If you are poorly buffered (as some people have accused IO of being) = change.

 

I don't see a pH shift in my water but (as previously stated) I use a mix of IO and Oceanic. Mine sits at 8.2 whether I check it at 5 min or if I check it the next day. I always tested my change water when I started reefing but I haven't done it in almost a year.

 

I have also always had precipitated CaCO3 in my bucket. This begs a question: If it takes 50 minutes to equilibrate CO2 in seawater, is it possible for us to add salt slow enough (without staying at the bucket all day) as to avert precipitation of our Calcium?

 

I am going to siphon out the precipitate from the bottom of my bucket and add some soda water to it, then I am going to dump it back in the rest of the water and see if it precipitates or changes the pH.

 

Maybe it's time to take this discussion elsewhere?

 

EDIT: MrAnderson, would you be willing to split the off-topic salt discussion into another, aptly titled thread?

 

Wow, Mr. Fossi. Thanks for getting that all straightened out. You were right all along.

 

That is actually great news. This information will save me TONS of time mixing up saltwater.

 

Here are pictures of the test results:

 

1st fresh from the ro/di filter:

 

Next from the storage can in the garage:

 

More like .50 ppm but still seems strange.

 

Rob

 

You are using the wrong color chart. API has two different color charts--one for fresh, one for salt. When you do the ammonia test on saltwater it kind of lights up neon yellow/green which is 0 ppm. Look into that. I use the the API test kits on a daily basis at the store and I made that same mistake the first few times I used them.

[AirManFL]

Wow, Mr. Fossi. Thanks for getting that all straightened out. You were right all along.

 

That is actually great news. This information will save me TONS of time mixing up saltwater.

You are using the wrong color chart. API has two different color charts--one for fresh, one for salt. When you do the ammonia test on saltwater it kind of lights up neon yellow/green which is 0 ppm. Look into that. I use the the API test kits on a daily basis at the store and I made that same mistake the first few times I used them.

 

No...I'm not using the wrong chart. The test is on stored RO/DI water without salt.

 

Rob

[MrAnderson]

somehow, someway, your water may be contaminated.

 

to properly interpret these results you need controls to validate your test kit.

 

get some distilled water from the supermarket and use it as a negative control for your test kit. use the same water to mix up a gallon with salt, for the negative control for mixed water. if those measure zero, your water is contaminated, end of story, and you should toss the water.

 

looks like you already have a positive control lol.

[clifford513]

Fresh water can become contaminated when stored, especially if a hand or anything else has been stuck in it for whatever reason. How long have you used the container to store RO water? I assume it has never been disinfected since it is used for aquarium use.

[lgreen]

No...I'm not using the wrong chart. The test is on stored RO/DI water without salt.

 

Rob

 

Oh sorry. That's what I get for only looking at the pics and not reading. I thought you were supporting the claim that salt has ammonia in it.

[AirManFL]

Fresh water can become contaminated when stored, especially if a hand or anything else has been stuck in it for whatever reason. How long have you used the container to store RO water? I assume it has never been disinfected since it is used for aquarium use.

 

I've been using the same container for exactly 1 year and it has never been cleaned. I have put my arm in the water before. To retrieve a pump, hose, etc.

 

I'm going to go ahead with my water storage plans so I'll just dump the water and start over with the new containers. I've been using that water for topoff for quite some time and have lost some inverts along the way. I suppose this could be the reason.

 

I'm glad I came across this thread and decided to test my water.

 

Rob

[Izzue]

urea = ammonia + CO2. so in salt mix without CO2, it's ammonia.

 

you're saying that salt mixes come WITH ammonia?

 

...

 

can you cite something for me? i find that hard to believe.

 

Naaa...Think that was the beer can babbling yesterday...But salt mixs have some bio smell

to me...Just plain smells like waste. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn yesterday

I know I read somewhere it is best to mix salt for at least 24 hours with airation to equilibrate

the Co2

Sry for having diarrhea of the mouth...But something in those mixs STinks to me.

 

Izzue

[Mr. Fosi]

Hmmm...I could try it. Could you recommend a small ratio for me to try? I don't want to waste a bunch of salt.

 

Just try a little bit, like a cup of water and a tsp of salt. You also need some negative controls, as MrAnderson stated. I am interested to see what you find.

 

One last email from Bob. I wonder if they only have one guy who responds to these emails or if his colleagues just have him answer ones that he has answered before. Either way, Bob is the man.

 

From: Aquarium Systems Tech <info@aquariumsystems.com>

To: Isaac <****@gmail.com>,

Date: Nov 13, 2007 7:41 AM

Subject: RE: How long to mix the salt?

 

Mr. ****, I have no data on the subject. Anything you can find that applies to seawater can reasonably applied artificial seawater.

 

Thank you,

 

Bob

 

So, it appears that (as lgreen stated) 24h will yield consistent results but letting it mix for 1+h won't hurt anything either. We also got some confirmation regarding how long to let it agitate/aerate if we are just doing water changes.

 

Also, lgreen, your assertion that different salt mixes may behave differently is supported. This may be a no-brainer for some, but it is good to get confirmation. Now you'll have something to point to if you ever hear anything like this again. Same for me.

 

Good stuff really. I don't know about you guys, I think it is fun to investigate this hobby's conventional wisdom. Sometimes it gets completely validated, sometimes only partially and sometimes not at all.

[Scott Riemer]

Seems all that's left to do now is declare this myth confirmed, plausible, or busted.

 

[Mr. Fosi]

 

 

It's not 24h but it is more than a few minutes.

[AirManFL]

Ok so these are the tests that I have completed:

 

RO/DI Water fresh out of filter - NH3 = 0 ppm

RO/DI Water stored about 1 mth - NH3 = .50 ppm

Saltwater with salinity @1.020 stored about 1 mth - NH3 = .50

Zephyrhills Spring Water - NH3 = 0 ppm

1 cup Zephyrhills Spring Water w/ 1 tsp Tropic Marin Salt - NH3 = .25 ppm

 

Ugh

[Mr. Fosi]

Could your salt be funky?

 

Do you have another brand of salt sitting around?

[MrAnderson]

good - that was very informative.

 

your stored water (salt andd fresh) is contaminated, that much is certain. you should get new containers or sterilize the old ones.

 

the freshly mixed saltwater is another issue... time for a new bag of salt.

[clifford513]

Any idea how the salt could have become contaminated?

[Scott Riemer]

Any idea how the salt could have become contaminated?

Drunk men are known to piss anywhere.

 

Edit: Sorry, that wasn't constructive. Seriously, can you come to any explanation as to how it might have gotten tainted.

[clifford513]

[AirManFL]

Any idea how the salt could have become contaminated?

 

Absolutely no clue.....very frustrating.

 

I've used the same measuring cup for about a year. Always mixed salt into the same container. I've also kept the same pump and vinyl hoses in the containers as well.

 

I guess I'm heading to the LFS to get a new bucket of salt tomorrow.

 

I'm going to see if there is a local supplier of FDA approved poly drums in the area and see if I can pick them up tomorrow. I've been working on putting my 120 gallon tank back up and have been working on putting plans together for water storage, auto topoff, and water changes. Now would be a good time to get them.

 

This bucket of salt was almost gone too so I need more anyways. I'll test the water with the new bucket of salt tomorrow.

 

When I come acrossed threads like this, I always think there is something that isn't being said. I'm really trying to think of any situation or event that could have caused this and I can't.

 

Rob

[AirManFL]

The common denominator between the salt and stored ro/di water is being stored in my garage. The salt has never been brought into the house. The RO/DI container is filled in the house (laundry room) and then moved into the garage.

 

I'm in the Orlando, FL area.

Could it be the heat?

Even though the lids are kept on the cans, they aren't tight.

Could it be the pollen in the air from the oak trees?

Grass clippings in the air?

Radon gas from the dead dinosaurs?

 

I know for a fact nobody wizzed in the salt or water. Not enough drinking in my house for that.

There has to be something in the air in the garage.

 

Rob

[Scott Riemer]

sabotage

[MrAnderson]

might even be just airborne dust/particulate matter accumulating then decaying with no place for the ammonia to go. sitting for a month in heat would accelerate that, and EVERYTHING makes ammonia when it decays.

 

is there anything in the bottom of the cans? even a slight coating of dust or particles? are the walls slimy?

[clifford513]

sabotage

It's happened before