Crinoids - The definition of Irony

[ebin]

I'm still waiting for Ebin to offer up a reasonable alternative to putting the feather stars in a display tank for the purpose of educating the public. So far all He's done is bash and attack Caesar for taking the only morally reasonable route.

Instead of criticizing Caesar, why not offer up a reasonable alternative course of action.

 

I gave several alternatives... Kill them so as not to let them die suffering slowly, ship them back (while not the best option its an option). these have been there since the begenning of the thread.

 

I just voiced my opinion. did I call her a moron? no I believe that is the attack that was put out there by ceasar. Did I call her any names?

 

So I say my opinion and it is bashing and attacking? where is my attack?

 

Ceasar calls me a moron and she is a savior.

 

Read the thread from the begenning you will see who is throwing attacks.

[Caesar777]

Look, the boss and I discussed what to do. We left them in the bags for hours. Option one: tossing them out. Option two: put them in the sump, maybe they'll live, iof not, oh well. Option three: Put them on display in hopes of explaining to people (with a sign on the tank and subsequent discussions) why they shouldn't be kept. You're not using a specific word like "moron", but you're nevertheless saying that this is the worst idea any idiot could do, and that you're the right one. On your idea: We DID contact the wholesaler since the incident. But you don't seem to understand how wholesalers work. Again, textiles aren't live animals. There aren't textiles that won't last in people's homes, that hitch along on other textiles anyway so they "may as well sell it". It's quite a different story. Don't preach about things you don't know. We know these crinoids will die. Our only hope was to educate a few people before they die. Don't htink I didn't play in my head the idea that people may see them, want them despite our explanations, and go out and buy them anyway. But I felt it was worth the risk. Forgive me, oh Great One, for choosing the WRONG option.

[ebin]

Look, the boss and I discussed what to do. We left them in the bags for hours. Option one: tossing them out. Option two: put them in the sump, maybe they'll live, iof not, oh well. Option three: Put them on display in hopes of explaining to people (with a sign on the tank and subsequent discussions) why they shouldn't be kept. You're not using a specific word like "moron", but you're nevertheless saying that this is the worst idea any idiot could do, and that you're the right one. On your idea: We DID contact the wholesaler since the incident. But you don't seem to understand how wholesalers work. Again, textiles aren't live animals. There aren't textiles that won't last in people's homes, that hitch along on other textiles anyway so they "may as well sell it". It's quite a different story. Don't preach about things you don't know. We know these crinoids will die. Our only hope was to educate a few people before they die. Don't htink I didn't play in my head the idea that people may see them, want them despite our explanations, and go out and buy them anyway. But I felt it was worth the risk. Forgive me, oh Great One, for choosing the WRONG option.

 

You feel it is worth the risk I do not, its called disagree.

 

I never said your idea was idiotic I said that YOU would attack someone trying to keep crinoids under any circumstances normally (most likely calling them moron like you did me). but you keeping them under your circumstances is not irony but makes you a hypocrit. I gave 2 options to aleiviate the problem, (Kill/flush to keep them from going into a tank) and (Send them back virtually washing your hands of the problem).

 

You must not have liked the options I gave and attacked me personally.

 

Whole sale of anything is the same you send what the retailer orders fish ones arent any different. If you order anything and you get the wrong thing you get your money back. it is common business practice, thats why the packing slip is included with orders. This goes for, fish, textiles, chopsticks.

 

If I call dominoes and order a pizza but they send me napkins is it ok since they sent me at least something?

[Caesar777]

You're not being antagonizing?

 

"So basically you are gonna see if you can keep em, but you know it's not gonna happen cause they will die slowly, but it is ok cause you work at a fish store and they have a nice sandbed to die in.

Irony...no, Hipocritical....hmmmmm"

 

You're being antagonizing. Wholesale with fish is NOT the same. Talk to anyone who's been in the biz for any amount of time.

 

Read the post again. Read your posts again.

 

You can express your opinion, and argue with me, but don't say that you're not being antagonizing, and that you're just stating an opinion and nothing more.

[lgreen]

Dry goods wholesale works pretty much like any other industry, but wholesale of fish/coral, anything termed "livestock" works a little different. You get a stock list w/ prices from the wholesaler, and put in your order, just like you would with dry goods, but when the wholesaler fills the livestock order, if they run out of something they "substitute" (the industry word for it) the item for something else similar. This may result in an upgrade or downgrade in size or color, or in some cases result in something completely different. For example, at the store where i work, we commonly purchase somewhere around 200-300 marine fish/inverts at a time. We may put in an order for 4 small coral beauty angels, but if they run out, they may substitute that for 4 large, with out asking. Our wholesaler is really bad about subsitutions. One bad one recently was when we ordered a medium (3-4") koran angel, and they subsituted for an extra small (1/2"). The poor little guy was too small, refused to eat despite our efforts, and died. Because of this, we make specfic effort to write "no substitutions" on the order, next to things we are not willing to accept a substitution for, and then if they are out, they drop it from the order instead of sending a substitute.

 

If they send you the wrong thing, then yah, you'll get a credit, but if you asked to send it back, they would laugh at you and hang up. If they substituted something rediculous, you might have a case for getting your credit, but they will be nasty. Then you just threaten to find a new wholesaler and they usually will go ahead and give you a credit.

 

the thing that really ticks me off is when you order in quality spendy corals and they run out and substituted with some obviously dyed piece of trash. The last few times we have ordered pink finger leathers they have sent us these neon pink ones (neon, like hightlighter neon) and they just fall apart like a day later.

 

Most good stores really try their best, but sometimes you can't help what the wholesaler sends you and you just have to find a way to deal with it.

 

Quality of life over quantity. I would rather see a feather star alive in caeser777's store's display tank, even if it was only for a few days, than laying in the dumpster behind the store.

[reefout]

wow, i gotta say (at the risk of being politically incorrect)

ebin- as cool as your nifty avatar is,

you win my "tard of the month award".

no whining now, just go sit in the corner

[Six]

Ceaser, you know darn well you have a giant target on your back online. You're openly admitting to working for a business that most hobbyists deem to be linked or somehow associated with satan. If they don't think that they sure as heck act like it.

 

Secondly, you're a female who knows what she is talking about, and or is willing to research it if you're wrong. I'll agree that I was not your number one fan after you got on my pooh about some zoanthids earlier this year, but I think we are both similar enough to understand each other. outspoken females aren't held highly here, we get branded a "female dog", "cold", and other sterotypical words for a female with an opinion.

 

I would have to openly say that it's no coincidence that you and I, also an outspoken female, both have bad repuations on this site.

 

That being said, and everyone piszed off as usual at me,

 

I agree wholeheartedly that wholesalers will and always do send you aniamls that they need to get rid of or think you want. They dont have photographs, WYSIWYG on their availability lists, it's all common names usually. You highlight what you want hoping it's what they say it is and sometimes they dont even send 1/2 the stuff you want. In Ohio we have a terrible fill rate, some wholesalers only send 1/2 of what we order making the prices higher because of the smaller order. Sometimes they send stuff you didnt order to "fill in" for stuff they already sold that you wanted.

We've gotten in sea pens and crinoids that way. this past week we got a black brotula. In Ohio there simply isn't a way to "just send it back". either way the company wont give us money back. maybe its a bad repor with the wholesaler, but ive seen a company who pays on time and orders "A" orders and still gets terrible fill rates and mis IDd coral and fish. I don't order the animals, or id have a little more to say about them sending stupid stuff, but it seems it's a side of the sword we have to deal with in Ohio. I'm sure other landlocked states are the same way. Cali people, you've got it better than you could ever imagine. we're talking two different realms of fish retail.

 

Anyways, Ceaser, people online are always going to be are POed youre a girl and you have the gall to "call out" people on doing something irresponsible. No one wants to know they are miskeeping their pets, so its a thin line to walk when giving advice. I think I was branded as an ass because i just dont flower up the truth. If someone gave their shrimp a heart attack because they were sticking their hand in the tank, swirling it around to get it to clean them, im going to tell them that it scares the crap out of the animal.

 

Before anyone says they feel attacked by advice, they should step back and see what the heck they are doing and why someone would give "nasty" advice.

 

I've POd many people, and some are gone, banned from the site. Maybe being a jerk, as so many people say I am, keeps the really irresponsible people out of the hobby. I can only wish.

[tinyreef]

i like outspoken females.

[RayWhisperer]

Everybody jump at Ebin cause he disagreed? He offered alternatives, not good one's but ,none the less alternatives. I gotta say, he makes a valid point with "they can do it, why can't I". Caesar, maybe the best option would be to put them in the back or, if your shop has em blacked out sump.

 

Caesar, you jumped down my throat for, basically, the same situation. Do you have a button on your keyboard that automatically throws out Moron or moronic?

 

EDIT: Basically the same situation, different animal.

[tinyreef]

Do you have a button on your keyboard that automatically throws out Moron or moronic?

F2

[neanderthalman]

mine's not working tiny.........

[Six]

Tiny, I never told you, but I have a huge crush on you.

[MillerLite]

Now, as far as applying voice to different audiences... When you talk to children, you don't use words like "symbiotic zooxanthellae", and you simplify explanations. When you talk to others that are at your level of reefkeeping, you feel free to use complex explanations, knowing full-well that they know what you're talking about. This is something I was taught in middle school English calss, and it's worked wonders for me.

 

I think what ebin may be getting at is how defensively Caesar777 often responds to different opinions and how inflammatory she can be, quite possibly not knowing just how it may sound to a reader. We all agree that Caesar has plenty of experience and knowledge that can be quite valuable to many on this forum. However, to imply that beginner reefers are like "children" and that explanations need to be "simplified" indicates to me the root of where some of the disagreements may be coming from. In my opinion, it is quite disrespectful to call someone a noob, moron, or idiot because they ask a simple question that any beginner or quite possibly, more experienced reefer may ask. These "noobs" could be PhD scientists or fairly educated individuals with many years of real life applied biological knowledge and animal experience that just may be new to the world of nanoreefing. Do you still think that you need to "simplify" your explanation to these people? Would you still refer to these individuals as "children" and yourself as an "adult"? Do you really think that your 6 years of working in a reef store trumps their ability to understand your explanations at "your level"? This is where I think people take offense. Believe me, I think most on this site can give criticism much better than they can take it but they refrain, and so should you. Its an open forum for free discussion no matter how ridiculous or "insignificant" the response may be to a more "experienced" reefer.

[neanderthalman]

Ebin, do you support the forced euthanasia of terminally ill patients? I'm talking about people here. Just curious.......

[tinyreef]

Tiny, I never told you, but I have a huge crush on you.

o-really?

 

[Lingwendil]

KEEPING ONE ON DISPLAY IN A LFS PROMOTES THE CAPTIVITY OF THIS SPECIES. IT WILL BE SEEN AND PLANT THE IDEA OF "THEY CAN WHY CAN'T I" no matter how you justify it.

 

So, going in tune with that logic, seeing pipe organ coral in a tank means that any novice can go and buy one, and kill it due to lack of knowledge. This of couse means that pipe organ shouldn't even be seen in stores at all. While we know that pipe organ coral aren't doomed with impossible survival rates, don't you think that looking at crinoids as such is a little stupid? Granted they aren't understood enough to be taken care of properly, at least they will educate some people. What's to keep someone from seeing one in a book and going out to buy one? If people really want to keep them they'll find a way.

 

Remember, just because you see a ad in a magazine for something, that doesn't mean you immediately go out and get one.

[MillerLite]

Secondly, you're a female who knows what she is talking about, and or is willing to research it if you're wrong.

 

Has nothing to do with the fact Caesar is a girl..stop fooling yourself into thinking this has become a gender thing, when in fact it is nothing of the sort.

[pet_doc]

Yeah, I don't think that gender even comes close to being an issue here. But, I could be wrong....maybe someone is tugging at someone's pigtails

 

BTW I second tiny's post about outspoken females.....

[Reefer Addict]

Has nothing to do with the fact Caesar is a girl..stop fooling yourself into thinking this has become a gender thing, when in fact it is nothing of the sort.

HMMMM.... May have something here. I don't know if it is possible to back track on Ceasars earlier posts and graph them. It may show us that she is a bit more testy towards noobs and those who disagree with her during a certain week of the month.....

[icenine]

Has nothing to do with the fact Caesar is a girl..stop fooling yourself into thinking this has become a gender thing, when in fact it is nothing of the sort.

 

 

 

I don't think it's a gender thing either..... most of the people who don't like Caesar don't know it's a woman.

 

I didn't even know six had a bad rep here.

 

I just love these threads... carry on.

 

[jmorris]

Do you have a button on your keyboard that automatically throws out Moron or moronic?

 

Most everything you say bothers the hell out of me RW, but that was just damn funny... maybe we can learn to live together in the end.

 

Jared

[bpatrol]

wow quite a thread, somehow i knew this was going south quick..

as far as feather stars I have had one in my 58 gal for 2 years plus now..no special care.the rock and sand are mature..I have alot of exp. with saltwater (20 years). and I am darn near the level of a marine biologist in education

 

as far as ceasar777 i have disagreed with her alot of times..but unlike her i do not resort to name calling and trying to be "the One". If she has a fault is being to strong with her opinions and imposing her will on others.

Now saying they are going to die for sure is ridiculous, if you have a well established tank they should do well. Putting them in the display tank like ceasar777 did if it is a mature tank is the right thing to do. Putting a sign saying yes we have one but you can't is dumb. Featherstars are not incredible showpiece animals to begin with anyway this thread is just a flame thread now.

 

Saying "you are going to research and try to figure out habits of feather stars and how they eat will be impossible with out a true representation of the waters they live in and tons of equipment. so if you think you are going to figure out what makes them go. (not going to happen)

fish wholesalers generally give credit on wrong orders. and they won't take it back.

 

In a nutshell I bet it lives. I am sure ceasar777 does indeed help some people here, but lay off the name calling and sarcasm..we are all here to help each other right?

I have helped literally hundreds of people get started in saltwater tanks, with only exp, encouragement and enthusiasm. This works best in my opinion

There is no such thing as an ecological fish store(think about it)

 

Good luck with the feather star CEASAR777.

 

P.S am I up to 50 post yet? I'm out of newbie range

 

Bpatrol

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's a gender thing either..... most of the people who don't like Caesar don't know it's a woman.

 

I didn't even know six had a bad rep here.

 

I just love these threads... carry on.

 

[jmorris]

BTW I second tiny's post about outspoken females.....

 

I 3rd it.

[Snoop]

Did I say I was better than anyone? Did I say I would keep a crinoid? No, quite the opposite. But draw what you will from it. Make your own conclusions. I'm a hypocrite, a Nazi, a reef-Nazi, a charlatan...Anything else you'd like to add to the ongoing list? Sheesh.

Thats what the otha dude said not me I chewed him out probally why the thread got closed.

 

i like outspoken females.

I fourth that unless its in the l3itchy way.

[MillerLite]

Well said bpatrol!!!