Crinoids - The definition of Irony

[bpatrol]

lol i do enjoy strong opinions

[phergus_25]

Well that just means that you are the 1 out of 1000. for the normal person going on the law of averages they are not a good choice.

Just for kickes, how do you care for them... feeding, tank care, tank size...

[MrAnderson]

ebin threw the first punch... everything is fair game after that

 

any chance ebin's a girl? catfight'b nice...

[adinsxq]

...just 6000 more posts and i will be a guru too.

 

you're my new best friend.

 

ALL DRAINS LEAD TO THE OCEAN!!

[frag]

Are feather star populations in the wild having a hard time? If not, then who cares if people want to throw their money away on them?

[Schwazreef]

Are feather star populations in the wild having a hard time? If not, then who cares if people want to throw their money away on them?

 

Regardless of wild populations, this is who:

 

A.)people who have a moral opposition to keeping animal in circumstances in which they dont survive, if not thrive

 

B:)people who don't want Reefing to be viewed as a hobbie in which we diregard the wellfare of the amimals at the expense of our entertainment

[frag]

Sorry I guess I missed the theme of the debate. I was looking at it from a bigger picture point of view. I think we would do better to get on our soap boxes about species whose collection threatens the enviroment. However I respect your moral reservations when it comes to crinoids and I will not attempt to divert attention from the topic of the thread.

[RayWhisperer]

Are feather star populations in the wild having a hard time? If not, then who cares if people want to throw their money away on them?

Normally I wouldn't say anything here, but I gotta ask.(not trying to flame you) Do you keep a tang or a mandarin in your nano?

[Fishfreak218]

Are feather star populations in the wild having a hard time? If not, then who cares if people want to throw their money away on them?

 

What if something said the same about u????? its the same thing.....who cares right...there are enough humans around....right??? or dont anybody take this affensive..what if this was when slavery was around...."ohh the black population in Africa isnt having a hard time...so who cares...lets let any white person get one...so that we can make some $$$..let them waist there money" ya if you keep selling and people keep buying then the Whole Seller will catch more to sell to other people b.c. there is a higher demand....eventually their population could dwindle down........

[frag]

Did you just compare a human life to a feather star? We are not talking about higher life forms here. I can appreciate the point you are attemting to make, however your logic does not consider the value of human life.

[jmorris]

Hehe...Sorry, Ray--I do it to everyone at least once.

 

When's it my turn? Or do I need to post about the baby nautilus I'm putting in my pico contest tank first?

 

Keep it up Cesar... you are like the dremel-bit of N-R.com, grinding off the sharp edges of stupidity and ignorance, one nano-reefer at a time.

[Nuhtty]

This post has gone from bad to ridiculous.

 

Removing it from my subscription list.

 

I apologize for any fanning that my "agreed" comment may have added to the fire.

[ebin]

Exactly--trying to make the best of a sour situation. And I realize that I call people morons too much, but come on. There's such a thing as being antagonizing for your own amusement. It's not....nice.

 

I was Just wondering how trying to keep one makes it ok knowing it will for sure die. but if some noob here tried the same you would bump your post count to like 8,000 flaming them and convincing them they are idiots.

 

PS, wholesalers don't "take things back".

 

I woulden't know I only know people that go directly to the wholesalers so they know what they are getting. and if I am doing buiseness through the mail I make darn sure what i order is what I get. or I simply get credit for it, and or send it back. it's pretty standard practice. I can imagine where you are employed has an account with the wholesaler so this would only take a second long phone call.

 

Did you just compare a human life to a feather star? We are not talking about higher life forms here. I can appreciate the point you are attemting to make, however your logic does not consider the value of human life.

 

I was trying to rationalize this too just could not do it.

 

 

Maybe i will soon understand and the featherstars of the ocean will accept me and add me to thier friends at myspace. then I could be cool.

 

 

 

Ebin didn't resort to ad hominem attacks.

 

--Diane

 

Thank you.

 

 

My posts are unedited. Please quote me where I personally attacked you? All I see is you flat out calling me a moron after I responded to this thread asking if maybe you were not really practicing what you preach.

 

two way street here ceaser.

 

As I said before I elaborated my thoughts and really don't care if you eat those stars, but personal attacks....not to lady like.

[Caesar777]

Ebin, you've never dealt with wholesalers. Sorry I don't live in LA and can't just walk down the street to them. We have to do what we can--and ALL wholesalers ALWAYS do this--that is, sending things you didn't ask for--regardless of which you deal with. It's part of the game.

 

What do you suggest we do with the stars, Ebin? I'm doing the only thing I can think of, short of flushing them. It'd cost us $40 to ship these overnight back to the wholesaler, who doesn't take returns anyway. Again, it's not LiveAquaria.

 

Now, as far as applying voice to different audiences... When you talk to children, you don't use words like "symbiotic zooxanthellae", and you simplify explanations. When you talk to others that are at your level of reefkeeping, you feel free to use complex explanations, knowing full-well that they know what you're talking about. This is something I was taught in middle school English calss, and it's worked wonders for me. Now, in the workplace, you're paid to do a service, and it's understood that you'll treat the customers with respect, not "guarantee I'll kick 100% of your ass if you don't shut up!", nomatter how annoying, rude, or pig-headed they are. That's kind of part of the agreement. Here, I can loosen up a bit, as do most people. I have respect for people with legitimate arguments, but not those who just like to "stir the pot". To say "You're a hypocrite, no need to elaborate further" just proves that. Did you read the reasoning why I'm keeping these? It's my only option. May as well try to educate some people before they die. But you apparently see it as "Whoo-hoo, I get to keep some purty crinoids!". Seems to me that a more intelligent person would be able to see my situation, despite not liking me or my principles, and understand it. Or at least provide an explanation of what I SHOULD--COULD--do. "Nope, you're wrong. That's all." Yee-haw.

 

PS, jmorris, I like your avatar too much to insult you.

[tinyreef]

I woulden't know I only know people that go directly to the wholesalers so they know what they are getting. and if I am doing buiseness through the mail I make darn sure what i order is what I get. or I simply get credit for it, and or send it back. it's pretty standard practice. I can imagine where you are employed has an account with the wholesaler so this would only take a second long phone call.

that's unrealistic though imo. wholesalers will get things wrong or sometimes even attempt to bait/switch orders with stuff.

 

they don't take things back. they would actually rather you dump it or keep it free than bother with the shipping bs.

 

although, if you have a regular "drop" guy, he may take it...but only to the next lfs to try and pawn it off.

 

i'm sure caesar or her boss got credit for it (or they should) but that still doesn't solve the animal's plight. although forcing a credit (negative $$$) may just make them think twice about importing/transshipping such an animal in the future.

 

the original pen/fan probably just came attached to some LR and they just split it off to make an extra buck. or was it ordered as such? whatevah.

[ebin]

Ebin, you've never dealt with wholesalers. Sorry I don't live in LA and can't just walk down the street to them. We have to do what we can--and ALL wholesalers ALWAYS do this--that is, sending things you didn't ask for--regardless of which you deal with. It's part of the game.

 

What do you suggest we do with the stars, Ebin? I'm doing the only thing I can think of, short of flushing them. It'd cost us $40 to ship these overnight back to the wholesaler, who doesn't take returns anyway. Again, it's not LiveAquaria.

 

Now, as far as applying voice to different audiences... When you talk to children, you don't use words like "symbiotic zooxanthellae", and you simplify explanations. When you talk to others that are at your level of reefkeeping, you feel free to use complex explanations, knowing full-well that they know what you're talking about. This is something I was taught in middle school English calss, and it's worked wonders for me. Now, in the workplace, you're paid to do a service, and it's understood that you'll treat the customers with respect, not "guarantee I'll kick 100% of your ass if you don't shut up!", nomatter how annoying, rude, or pig-headed they are. That's kind of part of the agreement. Here, I can loosen up a bit, as do most people. I have respect for people with legitimate arguments, but not those who just like to "stir the pot". To say "You're a hypocrite, no need to elaborate further" just proves that. Did you read the reasoning why I'm keeping these? It's my only option. May as well try to educate some people before they die. But you apparently see it as "Whoo-hoo, I get to keep some purty crinoids!". Seems to me that a more intelligent person would be able to see my situation, despite not liking me or my principles, and understand it. Or at least provide an explanation of what I SHOULD--COULD--do. "Nope, you're wrong. That's all." Yee-haw.

 

PS, jmorris, I like your avatar too much to insult you.

 

I sure hope you are more useful at the lfs you work at than you have been at reading my posts in this thread. Where do you get that I have not ever dealt with a wholesaler? I have dealt with many wholesalers for textiles both in the midwest, west coast and overseas in china. Just because they are wholesalers does not mean you aren't thier customer and they have to make good to you just as you have to make good to your customers, but you just work at the shop so you may be out of that loop. do not claim to know what I have and have not done as you do not know me.

 

And your very long paragraph about how to talk to people I believe what you were looking for is called "Frame of reference" it's not only lightly tought in middle school but very heavily touched on in oral/interpersonal communication classes at the college level. but again you seem to be the expert on everything so maybe you forgot those classes and needed to explain it the very roundabout silly way you did.

 

I did however offer a solution for the problem. Call the wholesaler and get credit for the product not shipped and offer to ship back the stars at thier cost. Most wholesalers would (espicially on such a small thing as two stars) just tell you to keep the stars and return to your account with them the cost you paid. Flushing them is an excellent idea. even greenpiece and peta would rather see animals die quickly then see them die slowly in your tanks. I can see the all the promotion you are giving by keeping these in your tanks. it is promoting people to think "Well they do why can't I" and thats the exact message you are sending. then you come here and promote it more, justifying what you have heavily condoned as wrong with your feeble excuses.

 

But hey anyone who calls you on like I have is obviously in need of personal attacks like you made at me. I said what I felt, gave my opinion on it, and to keep from post wars in this thread like you have resorted to, said I would no further say anything.

 

You are a hypocrit, You make personal attacks, and I hate to break it to you are not always correct. Wake up honey you work at (Not Even Own) a fish store and your claim to fame is a high post count at a fish forum.

 

Where do you come off thinking you are better than anyone here?

 

 

they don't take things back. they would actually rather you dump it or keep it free than bother with the shipping bs.

 

 

i'm sure caesar or her boss got credit for it (or they should) but that still doesn't solve the animal's plight. although forcing a credit (negative $$$) may just make them think twice about importing/transshipping such an animal in the future.

 

You posted this tiny while I was typing the last post and yes they will tell them to keep it and return the $ as it was thier mistake. to help the plight is not to keep them in the tank at the store as it promotes the captivity of the animal. masquerade it as education all you want.

[Caesar777]

Did I say I was better than anyone? Did I say I would keep a crinoid? No, quite the opposite. But draw what you will from it. Make your own conclusions. I'm a hypocrite, a Nazi, a reef-Nazi, a charlatan...Anything else you'd like to add to the ongoing list? Sheesh.

[ebin]

Did I say I would keep a crinoid? No, quite the opposite.

 

 

Actually you did in your first post. here it is......

 

from ceasars first post:

After acclimating everything else, and thinking hard about what the heck to do with these guys--as we sure as heck won't be selling them, thus promoting the keeping of such creatures--I decided to put them in one of our invert/soft coral tanks, lit by VHO

 

now maybe my eyes were strained but it looks like it is not only going into a tank you care for but put on display for others to see.

 

so add to the list liar as I have again called you on it.

[NEVER SATISFIED REFFER]

... Many species of animals can't be kept in captivity for long (weeks to months), for various reasons from too specialized of diets (Acropora polyps for orange-spot files, certain regional sponge species for the nudis)

 

 

 

So are you saying Acro's can't be kept very long????

[tinyreef]

to help the plight is not to keep them in the tank at the store as it promotes the captivity of the animal. masquerade it as education all you want.

i'd agree, showcasing the animal would not be the correct way to go about it but it's also kinda like showcasing a batfish. "most" lfs will say such and such animals are difficult and persuade a client not to go for it. otoh, i've seen reef-in-a-box too many times as well.

 

i don't think caesar's hiding behind "education" to justify the crinoid. like she says, in fact she opened up with "those godd*mn wholesalers stuck me with this thing, wtf is its frickin' mouth even?".

 

that doesn't seem like she's pretending to be a crinoid-master or anything. she's just saying she's stuck between a rock and a hard place with a moral dilemma tossed in.

 

otooh, if the best chance for the crinoid is in the display tank, then why not?

 

i really have to disagree with "it's better to kill it quick than give it a chance, albeit a very poor one". with that logic you just given yourself license to kill everyone with HIV, cancer, or other terminal disease. why wait for the inevitable when we can cut to the chase?

 

you try and until you fail. that's life...or death. ah, you know what i mean.

[neanderthalman]

I'm still waiting for Ebin to offer up a reasonable alternative to putting the feather stars in a display tank for the purpose of educating the public. So far all He's done is bash and attack Caesar for taking the only morally reasonable route.

 

It's been established that wholesalers don't take returns. After being shipped back to the wholesaler, then shipped again to another LFS, the animal is likely dead. Why would the wholesaler pay to ship a dead animal twice? That's just bad business.

 

When a mistake is made, I'd expect the LFS to get a credit on their next order, but shipping the animal back to the wholesaler is a death sentence. There are no local aquariums with a better environment than that display tank to donate the feather star to at this point - though I hope the search continues.

 

Instead of criticizing Caesar, why not offer up a reasonable alternative course of action.

[tinyreef]

Instead of criticizing Caesar, why not offer up a reasonable alternative course of action.

that settles it.

 

she and i will have to meet over dinner and make out...uh, i mean develop a plan of action.

 

 

(Caesar777 @ Dec 5 2005, 03:11 PM) Did I say I would keep a crinoid? No, quite the opposite.

i think she meant to say/type "could" instead of "would". just guessing though.

[jmorris]

I have dealt with many wholesalers for textiles both in the midwest, west coast and overseas in china.

 

Ummmm... Hello! Textiles are not fish the last time I checked, but according to your description of wholesalers/retail relations, I only wish fish wholesalers were more like textile wholesalers. In my experience with four of Northern California's larger pet/animal wholesalers, they have very tight purse strings, and will not flippantly refund the price of an order or part of an order because it is not what you thought you were ordering... in fact, they would probably blame it on you! Since the fish business is fairly small, the wholesalers know you don't have many choices in suppliers of some animals, so they don't have to worry about keeping you perfectly happy, because they know you'll be back if you want a certain product only they offer, or that they offer at a very competitive price. Not quite what you dealt with in the cloth business huh?

 

Flushing them is an excellent idea. even greenpiece and peta would rather see animals die quickly then see them die slowly in your tanks.

 

Are you serious... flush them instead of try your best to keep them and maybe learn/teach something in the process? Wow. Oh, and about Peta and Greenpeace... Do you really want to use them to back up your claim? You do realize PETA doesn’t even what you to be able to keep fish tanks, right? And Greenpeace, I'll just link to this article to make my point about them: Greenpeace fined for reef damage

 

p.s. - Greenpiece?… seriously?

 

I can see the all the promotion you are giving by keeping these in your tanks. it is promoting people to think "Well they do why can't I" and that’s the exact message you are sending. then you come here and promote it more, justifying what you have heavily condoned as wrong with your feeble excuses.

 

Did you not read his description of how they would be used to show customers that even under the best care they are virtually impossible to keep? And what if he does have some success? maybe we can all learn something about how to keep these fascinating creatures. Someone has to be the first, and scientific research centers and public aquariums often do very little with tropical, and if they do, their facilities are often sub-par to a good home or store tank.

 

I could go on, and on, and on, but I've got class in half an hour, and frankly, I would need more time than that to fully critique the drivel you've spouted in this thread, much less just this post. Soooo... I'm done here.

 

Peace,

Jared

[ebin]

i'd agree, showcasing the animal would not be the correct way to go about it but it's also kinda like showcasing a batfish. "most" lfs will say such and such animals are difficult and persuade a client not to go for it. otoh, i've seen reef-in-a-box too many times as well.

 

that doesn't seem like she's pretending to be a crinoid-master or anything. she's just saying she's stuck between a rock and a hard place with a moral dilemma tossed in.

 

i really have to disagree with "it's better to kill it quick than give it a chance, albeit a very poor one". with that logic you just given yourself license to kill everyone with HIV, cancer, or other terminal disease. why wait for the inevitable when we can cut to the chase?

 

you try and until you fail. that's life...or death. ah, you know what i mean.

 

I understand she is stuck with them. display is not the answer as every person that enters the store sees them. Aids, cancer and things of the likeness are a whole different story. We are talking about $30.00 worth of feather stars.

 

I have 2 lfs by me that sell these animals one of the stores I only buy drygoods from as their water is more foul than port-a-potty water. they have kept several crinoids for months on end. I always laugh when I see these in the store as it is funny they can't keep damsels alive but have 2 crinoids living for months on end that is irony. or is it maybe something they need heavily dirty water in a very old system. I also seen them at a newer lfs in my area with fairly new system but I really don't frequent that shop much lately. both stores charge like $15-$17 for these. I think the animal is boring and really not to interesting they sit on the rock and spend half the time folded over balled up ( I believe this is part of feeding). I really see no reason to make a big deal out of trying to keep them they really aren't the most in demand as they have a low success rate, so wiping out the population is slim to none. I just pointed out that ceasar flaming then keeping makes her a hypocrit IMO, and I feel that if she wants to make a real statement not to have them in captive care on display at her store. these forums are a place to share ideas, thoughts and yes opinions. posting a thread and then making a personal attack at anyone that opinions disagree is silly and against the rules of nano-reef.com.

 

So I will again post what I first thought and be done with your thread ceasar....

 

KEEPING ONE ON DISPLAY IN A LFS PROMOTES THE CAPTIVITY OF THIS SPECIES. IT WILL BE SEEN AND PLANT THE IDEA OF "THEY CAN WHY CAN'T I" no matter how you justify it.

 

this is my opinion just because i don't agree with you doesen't make my opinion worthless, or warrant personal attacks.

[ebin]

Ummmm... Hello! Textiles are not fish the last time I checked, but according to your description of wholesalers/retail relations, I only wish fish wholesalers were more like textile wholesalers. In my experience with four of Northern California's larger pet/animal wholesalers, they have very tight purse strings, and will not flippantly refund the price of an order or part of an order

 

*because it is not what you thought you were ordering...*

 

in fact, they would probably blame it on you! Since the fish business is fairly small, the wholesalers know you don't have many choices in suppliers of some animals, so they don't have to worry about keeping you perfectly happy, because they know you'll be back if you want a certain product only they offer, or that they offer at a very competitive price.

 

Not quite what you dealt with in the cloth business huh?

 

Actually the textiles are much more complex as anything that comes into contact with the skin has to meet very high standards.

I have put astericks around a very silly statement what was ordered was not crinoids (ceasar is smarter than to order these) what was sent was the wrong thing. And I bet that the wholesalers you deal with will make good on thier mistake as this was a mistake on the wholesellar not ceasars shop. There are many places to go for wholesale orders in the tropical fish buiseness, so to say a seller will stiff you thinking oh well they got nowhere to get product would be suicide for them.