Crinoids - The definition of Irony

[Caesar777]

Was the old thread deleted? Well, let's not let this one get all feggutsa, eh? (Godwin's Law again?)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Well, you all know my beliefs on feather stars and similar creatures (the doomed ones, I mean)... Not a fan of people keeping them--myself included. Crinoids, Moorish idols, ribbon eels, orange-spot filefish, Chromidorid ("purple") nudibranchs, the list goes on and on... Many species of animals can't be kept in captivity for long (weeks to months), for various reasons from too specialized of diets (Acropora polyps for orange-spot files, certain regional sponge species for the nudis) to unknown reasons for death after a few months (Moorish idols, ribbon eels). Just a few weeks ago I hopelessly tried to argue with another reefer who was planning to keep Crinoids despite all the reasons why it's a terrible idea.

 

 

 

 

So what came in today?

 

 

 

 

(Wholesalers can be so...ugh.) Two crinoids. On the wholesale list: "Green feather duster". Who'd have thought; we always bring in the featherduster worms with no problems, and this time they interpreted this.

 

After acclimating everything else, and thinking hard about what the heck to do with these guys--as we sure as heck won't be selling them, thus promoting the keeping of such creatures--I decided to put them in one of our invert/soft coral tanks, lit by VHO. It's the most peaceful one, with a few fairy wrasses, a couple of sweet baby Starcki damsels, and a nice sandbed full of Nassarius vibex snails. The least likely to mean soon doom for these sweet stars. Maybe the sand might provide tiny amounts of nourishment--all our other tanks are barebottom.

 

They're beautiful animals. One is banded with off-white and green-blue, with darker green, almost black, toward the center. The other is a harlequin pattern of a darker green-black. One of our staff is training to be a real pro photographer, and I'll be having him photograph them, for sure.

 

They're fascinating to watch. In all my years of reefing, I haven't seen them in person--only in books and in dreams--and now I see this "crinoid dance", in which they finely-tune moving their arms about to catch plankton. They have the most unique texture--extremely delicate, sticky, but not at all slimy. No doubt it's to catch fine plankton. A* put some FormulaOne in the tank, as he was feeding all the systems, and they greedily snatched up bits and curled into oddly-shaped clumps. Not sure how good it'll be for them...

 

I made sure to write on the tank with a bright yellow grease-pencil: "Crinoids NFS... (wholesaler mistake)". At least, if they're going to die anyway, we may as well make use of them and utilize them as a tool to teach customers about inappropriate choices for home aquaria. These are certainly one of them; wholly planktivores, and possibly bacteria-eaters, they need a vast amount of food constantly, along with impeccable water conditions, and some missing element that even public aquariums and private institutions haven't been able to pinpoint. Nobody yet knows of a way to keep these long-term. A few people have had mysterious successes. I don't think that fragment of a percentage makes it acceptable for the casual hobbyist to attempt them, but, of course, all of this is my opinion. Let's not go nuts.

[NaughtyCashew]

I know I am totally missing the point here, but where/what reef place do you work at? From the description it totally sounds fascinating.

[Nuhtty]

From Shimek, Marine Invertebrates:

 

"Crinoids should not be kept until we make more strides in understanding how we can provide the right kind of food to these lovely, delicate creatures."

 

Sorry to hear about the wholesalers error. As you said, hopefully it can be used as an educational experience.

[Caesar777]

Absolutely. Four people within 24 hours of the incident have asked me, quote, "What's the deal with the crinoids?" Yeah, one was Jerry Seinfeld.

[ebin]

So basically you are gonna see if you can keep em, but you know it's not gonna happen cause they will die slowly, but it is ok cause you work at a fish store and they have a nice sandbed to die in.

 

Irony...no, Hipocritical....hmmmmm

[neanderthalman]

That's not hypocritical, it's a terrible situation to be in. It's like having a child forced into your care that in all likelihood is going to die very very soon. What would you do? Name a better option. If Caesar had taken them home to give them a try, that would be hypocritical. Caesar didn't volunteer to be in this situation, but was forced into it. Theres no hypocrisy here, though the irony is suffocating.

 

The only option I could see is if there was a local collector who was having great luck in keeping them - the crinoids could be donated to his care. No such collector or aquarium exists - nobody yet knows why they die. At the moment, where is the best place for Caesar to put them - in the hands of an unwitting individual to make a few bucks? Better they be used as a tool to help educate the public about responsible husbandry.

 

In all likelihood, they will die, and they will die soon, regardless of what aquarium they are in. If they're sold, more crinoids will arrive to replace them, and they too will die. By refusing to sell them, Caesar is helping to prevent the collection of the species by eliminating the market for them. They're pretty much doomed, but keeping them at the LFS will save a few crinoids from sharing their fate.

 

I do have a thought Caesar - I don't know where Bat Country is, but are there any aquariums or research groups in the area that are trying to find out why they die in aquaria? You could donate them. They will still likely die in the hands of the researchers, but that's two more crinoids that the researchers won't have to order in. That saves two more crinoids, in addition to those not shipped to your store in the future.

[ebin]

That's not hypocritical, it's a terrible situation to be in. Name a better option. If Caesar had taken them home to give them a try, that would be hypocritical. Caesar didn't volunteer to be in this situation, but was forced into it. Theres no hypocrisy here, though the irony is suffocating.

 

Last time I was sent something by mistake I sent it back so I could have the correct thing that I originally ordered sent to me. Ceaser was forced into keeping these by ceasers own account.

 

And how does weather ceaser tries to care for it at home or at the shop make a difference? Ceaser is still trying to care for an animal that ceaser tears into people for trying to care for all the time.

 

I really see no need for me to elaborate any further than I have.

[MillerLite]

I think I am going to keep my opinions...good and/or bad on this one to myself

 

We went around this the last time. I envy you however Caesar for having the opportunity to see and care for the Crinoids . Regardless of what the circumstances, the fact that the wholesaler made a mistake and your sticking to your beliefs in keeping these stars out of the hands of reefkeepers despite the loss of profit is commendable. Hopefully your boss sees it like you do and doesnt take the cost out of your paycheck.

 

Yes, please do post some photos and if you have a chance, a mpeg of the star swimmining in the tank would be fabulous. Maybe you might want to keep a short journal on the stars...what you feed them...how often...and how long they live to see if what everyone says is true...

 

Please keep us posted of the outcome...Take care!

 

Terry

[evoracer]

And what if they are sent back? The wholesaler will just sell them to someone else who will sell them to the public (if they las tthat long) and the cylce continues. At least Ceasar is trying to break the chain (at least fot these two) by not selling them. I don't see how this could be a bad thing. I am sure these were paid for, and won't be sold, so Ceasar is being about as morally responsible as possible. There really is no better option in this situation.

[Caesar777]

Ebin, you're a moron. We send it back, it either dies in shipping because it's so delicate or they send it off to someone else and make another fifteen bucks. You deal with wholesalers, or LiveAquaria.com? This is the REAL world, bud, where things don't always go your way. Thanks for the bull###### advice, though.

 

And don't think we aren't letting them know what we think. But they won't understand or care. We may well be boycotting them anyway--they've gone downhill since the new ownership. (This kind of thing wouldn't have happened under the old management.)

 

To the more realistic folks, yes, the thought did occur to donate them to someone, but the local aquarium stinks at tropicals (you should see their "hair algae forest" tank) and I don't know of anyone else. BUT the owner may well have connections. Better that than watching them die in our tanks. Still, more people have asked about them, and have been told about them. So this mistake has been bittersweet, in that (hopefully) they now understand why that might be a problem.

 

EDIT: They were curled up all day today and yesterday. They did grab that Formula One--did them harm? Or they're still eating it? Who knows. I certainly will be watching them.

[Nuhtty]

Ebin, you're a moron.

 

Agreed.

[Lingwendil]

I think that caesar is doing the best he can for now. At least they'll educate the ignorant abou these awesome animals, rather than have the supplier just send them to another owner to die without purpose.

[Caesar777]

Exactly--trying to make the best of a sour situation. And I realize that I call people morons too much, but come on. There's such a thing as being antagonizing for your own amusement. It's not....nice.

[Fishfreak218]

Ebin, you're a moron.

 

Agreed.

 

same here

[Caesar777]

PS, wholesalers don't "take things back".

[Snoop]

Im sad things havent gone my way this month

[lgreen]

well, regadless of how you do it or what not, (minor details, who cares), you should be commended for at least trying to keep them alive.

 

i dont know anything about them, but if you feel it is out of your abilities, you might check w/ a local aquarium or marine biology programs at the universities to see if they can accomodate them.

 

isn't it amazing though how much stuff is on the wholesale lists that should never be in the care of even your average advanced reefer.

[Snoop]

NOBODY can keep these alive except for LUCKY(I am not one of them )people.

[RayWhisperer]

And I realize that I call people morons too much, but come on.

Yeah, you called me a moron once aswell.

Don't worry, I won't repay the favor.

Do the best you can w/ them, and keep us posted.

[Caesar777]

Hehe...Sorry, Ray--I do it to everyone at least once.

 

Yes, lgreen, I see several wholesalers' lists every week and always see orange-spot files (usually 30-90 of them each week per wholesaler that has them), ribbon eels, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam. Really sad.

[MillerLite]

Exactly--trying to make the best of a sour situation. And I realize that I call people morons too much, but come on. There's such a thing as being antagonizing for your own amusement. It's not....nice.

 

If you want a little respect from people..you have to give a little respect to others.

 

Antagonizing people by calling them noobs, morons, or idiots because of the questions they asked or after they have expressed their views only leads to retaliatory comments that moves away from the importance of the threads. Plus it makes me have to wade through all that garbage to read what others think.

 

Save that crap for your in-store customers where I am sure, you are much more elegant in your suggestions and explanations. Do you say the same things in the same manner to these people when they are face-to-face? No, didnt think so.

[c est ma]

Ebin didn't resort to ad hominem attacks.

 

--Diane

[g0tfish]

If you want a little respect from people..you have to give a little respect to others.

 

Antagonizing people by calling them noobs, morons, or idiots because of the questions they asked or after they have expressed their views only leads to retaliatory comments that moves away from the importance of the threads. Plus it makes me have to wade through all that garbage to read what others think.

 

Save that crap for your in-store customers where I am sure, you are much more elegant in your suggestions and explanations. Do you say the same things in the same manner to these people when they are face-to-face? No, didnt think so.

 

agreed

[bpatrol]

If you want a little respect from people..you have to give a little respect to others.

 

Antagonizing people by calling them noobs, morons, or idiots because of the questions they asked or after they have expressed their views only leads to retaliatory comments that moves away from the importance of the threads. Plus it makes me have to wade through all that garbage to read what others think.

 

Save that crap for your in-store customers where I am sure, you are much more elegant in your suggestions and explanations. Do you say the same things in the same manner to these people when they are face-to-face? No, didnt think so.

 

 

 

cool the debate continues...just 6000 more posts and i will be a guru too.

 

oh well guess i will go see how my feather star is doing..been like 2 years now

sorry "crinoids" for the experts.

[lgreen]

i'm going to go make some popcorn. this thread is going to be interesting.