Overflow Diagrams

[ballerina]

My 135g has a center overflow which is pretty large, dunno the rate though. There are 3 bulkheads on the bottom, 2x1/2" and 1x1" . I'm guessing the 1x1" bulkhead was meant for the flow to the sump while the 2x1/2" were meant for the returns. However, I wanted to use the Herbie method and so I was thinking of using the 1x1" bulkhead as the primary line to the sump and one of the 1/2" as an emergency line to the sump and keeping the other 1/2" as a return to the tank, maybe with a Tee so I can have return outlets. The problem is I have no room to drill another hole so the three predrilled holes are all I have. I really want to use the Herbie method...what are your thoughts?

[Tigahboy]

My 135g has a center overflow which is pretty large, dunno the rate though. There are 3 bulkheads on the bottom, 2x1/2" and 1x1" . I'm guessing the 1x1" bulkhead was meant for the flow to the sump while the 2x1/2" were meant for the returns. However, I wanted to use the Herbie method and so I was thinking of using the 1x1" bulkhead as the primary line to the sump and one of the 1/2" as an emergency line to the sump and keeping the other 1/2" as a return to the tank, maybe with a Tee so I can have return outlets. The problem is I have no room to drill another hole so the three predrilled holes are all I have. I really want to use the Herbie method...what are your thoughts?

I know some will say that should be fine (having 1" primary and 1/2" secondary), but on a tank your size, if you had flow at about 4x display going thru the sump, that would get you approximately 540gph ideal thru the drain and returns. If the 1" primary were to completely clog up, the 1/2" secondary, even at full siphon, would not be able to handle that.

 

You'd have to either severely limit the flow going thru the drain (maybe. 2x display, so 270gph thru the drain and return) to be able to have the 1/2" secondary even come close to being able handle all flow in case the primary was clogged completely (tho I am not sure what the 1/2" at full siphon could handle exactly). Of course 270gph circulating between display and sump should be fine, you'll just have to make up the rest of the flow with a vortech or two.

 

OR, you could have both 1/2" bulkheads serve as emergency drains and just have the return line go up and over the top of the tank. Not a big deal.

 

OR, you could try to use a drum bit and make the 1/2" secondary drain larger to accommodate a larger bulkhead (assuming you have enough room to fit a larger sized bulkhead in its place.

[ballerina]

2x 1/2" drains only can handle about half of what 1x1" drain can so that probably will be a major issue...I guess the I could maybe cut a hole in the back and plumb it that way instead of on the bottom since I do not have any room on the bottom...

[bitts]

now i know this might seem compleatly backwards but what about using the 1/2" as the primay. with the water line high enough above the drain, this should encrease flow up to the maxum flow rate of the drain pipe and open the 1" up to be used as the back up.

 

first does anyone know the the max flow rate of 1/2" internal diamiter piping?

second is the overflow deep enough to have the nessasry water level for a 1/2" primary, with a 1" backup?

 

 

now a 1" wouldent need that water above to reach a desent flowrate acording to wet's calculation

1"bulkhead @ 1" depth=338.6gph

1"bulkhead @ 1.5" depth=414.8gph

1"bulkhead@ 2" depth=478gph

1"bulkhead@ 3" depth=586gph

1"bulkhead@ 4" depth=677gph

1"bulkhead@ 5" depth=757gph

 

but a 1/2" may need a shockingly large distantce between drain and waterline.

 

my math says

.5bulkhead@ 9" depth=253.8gph

.5bulkhead@ 10" depth=267.6gph

.5bulkhead@ 11" depth=280.8gph

yuk. slow, but........

 

this may not be the flow you were looking for. but could provide proper flow through the sump if your display tanks flow was suplamented with power heads or vortechs. would use eductors on the returns.

 

maby, just tring to thing out side the you know.....

[jager]

Can I use the herbie method if I do not plan to have an overflow box? I would imagine so, then the gate value would control the level of the whole tank. I'm building a cheap frag tank out of a rubbermaid type clear plastic container and this is what I'm thinking about for the overflow.

 

 

two 3/4" pipes. The lower one with a strainer and the upper backup with teeth cut into the pipe to act as a surface skimmer. Would this work? The container is only 6" high. Thinking of running the backup overflow to the top of the container and cutting the teeth 1/2" down. So the ideal water level would be around 5.75ish inches. How far should the main drain be from the water level, 3"?

Edited October 14, 2009 by jager

[jager]

Ok, I just checked out the design I posted above. Worked good, but the Ts after the bulkheads needed to be elbows instead. I should have known that looking at the pictures/drawings on this thread. The other thing I noticed is that without an overflow box, when the pump is off, the water level in the display will drain all the way to the lower standpipe. Not a big deal but means at least a 1/4 of the water from the display will drain into the sump ( +/- depending on lower standpipe height). With an overflow box it would only drain to the bottom of the teeth. Since this is going to be a high light coral frag tank and as such only one level I'm not too concerned with the water drain issue. Although I going to try and find a container that is a little higher than 6". I think 10" would be perfect. The low lights corals are going in a different tank.

 

Positives are that this setup was nice and quiet once the Ts were replaced with elbows. And the flow rate matched up well to the drains. I tested with a quiet one 2200 which pushes ~ 581 not counting the head height and had no problems. I think the mag 7 that will be hooked up to this tank and the softies tank will be perfect.

[bitts]

Ok, I just checked out the design I posted above. Worked good, but the Ts after the bulkheads needed to be elbows instead. I should have known that looking at the pictures/drawings on this thread. The other thing I noticed is that without an overflow box, when the pump is off, the water level in the display will drain all the way to the lower standpipe. Not a big deal but means at least a 1/4 of the water from the display will drain into the sump ( +/- depending on lower standpipe height). With an overflow box it would only drain to the bottom of the teeth. Since this is going to be a high light coral frag tank and as such only one level I'm not too concerned with the water drain issue. Although I going to try and find a container that is a little higher than 6". I think 10" would be perfect. The low lights corals are going in a different tank.

 

Positives are that this setup was nice and quiet once the Ts were replaced with elbows. And the flow rate matched up well to the drains. I tested with a quiet one 2200 which pushes ~ 581 not counting the head height and had no problems. I think the mag 7 that will be hooked up to this tank and the softies tank will be perfect.

 

 

yea the overflow wall is for those of us who would have 8-10 inches (or more) drain out of the display.

[phaze5]

Ok I figured this was the best place for my question. New tank with (2)1" bulkheads,(2)external durso drains, calfo overflow, and 1000gph return pump. Is it possible to have too much return and thats what could be making my system way too loud. Slurping and gruggling.

you can see in this pic that the overflow is just pulling from the corners and not the entire overflow

 

the only this that has changed from this picture is I added caps and drilled them and added some air hose to see it would quite it down abit- no help.

 

overall pic of the back to gisve you what I am working with...

[Tigahboy]

Yes, that much flow going thru the 2 dursos will make some noise. You don't need that much flow going thru ur tank and sump anyway (esp with all the cool powerheads, vortechs and such out there). Why not downgrade the pump? I'm actually thinking about downgrading myself to something rated at 650 gph (so probably way less after headloss). And I have a tank of similar size.

[phaze5]

ok added a tee, and a ball valve to the return line going back to the tank and reduced the flow going back to the tank by opening the ball valve and it works much better but still not 100% quite just getting a running water sound...

[Tigahboy]

ok added a tee, and a ball valve to the return line going back to the tank and reduced the flow going back to the tank by opening the ball valve and it works much better but still not 100% quite just getting a running water sound...

That works too. I did that with my 35g as well to reduce flow up to the display... But I think no matter what you will get some running water sound. It's just the nature of the beast. Herbie overflow method is pretty close to dead silent, but even then you will hear some sound of water rushing through the pipes.

[phaze5]

Thanks for the help man

[FateX9]

i had a very similar setup, coast to coast overflow with the external durso...it will NEVER be 100% quiet

ive tried everything and you can get it close but it'll start back up, i tried all sorts of flow from extremely low to high and nothing worked

i tried drilling holes and airlines and it helps but still nothing

i was getting noise mainly from gurgling and to decrease the gurgling i put something to lead the water into the pipes instead of falling into the pipe

and then i also got noise from the water falling into the sump so i put a sponge for it to hit and it still made noise but not as much

[bitts]

hey phaze5 try an external herbie on both drains. should help.

[SushiYum]

will this work? will it be quiet?

 

 

 

i did that just to eliminated pipe clutter. and to have a high water line in the internal overflow to get rid of the water splashing in that area. i prob won't need a ball valve right?

Edited December 5, 2009 by SushiYum

[bitts]

would be better off with standard durso higher up.

tank would drain, would not be quiet.

the original is for converting tanks that have been drilled and already set up, into herbie style systems.

or to elimanate one of the holes to improve structual integraty. not as safe as standard herbie but quiet.

[SushiYum]

hm..okay, lemme explain what i'm trying to do.

 

i have a 15 gallon and i want to do a internal overflow. but i only want to drill one hole and some kind of external pipe setup. recommend nething? i just want it to be quiet.

 

i already bought a 1" bulkhead. and its on the way to my house.

 

 

one of these? lol

wouldn't there be kinda of a dead spot towards the bottom of the overflow? and what if i need to clean that area out?

 

 

?????

Edited December 7, 2009 by SushiYum

[bitts]

would do a second hole and run a herbie style if you want quiet. other wise durso with pipe extending down like in the lower right example above would be next best.

 

for good examples of overflows, try http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=163883 and then of corse theres the guru him self http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=198581 or mine somewhere around page 7-8 i think.

 

 

rember silent means no air in the pipe; which requiers a ball valve; which requiers a back up drain.

 

durso's are farly quiet because the vent is used to control the waterline and keep it above the drain.

read an old thread, its an oldy but a goody. cant thank wet's enough with every thing ive learned from his posts. this will hopefully explane where to put the hole.

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?...=19572&st=0

 

http://www.grow.arizona.edu/Grow--GrowReso...?ResourceId=188

 

 

 

you can also use a durso on the lower end of the drain line to help quiet it down.

[SushiYum]

so. i'm looking at the first picture. the main drain on the bottom doesn't require a hole in the cap?

 

if you skip to 1:00 can i do it like that? is that quiet?

Edited December 8, 2009 by SushiYum

[bitts]

perfect example of herbie style. nice linky.

 

the only noise is the water flowing over the wier. and as long as this doesnt fall to far there is no noise or bubbles. use the ball valve to adjust the water line.

 

dont forget to use screans though, video doesent. tearing plumbing apart sucks in the first place let alone when it could have been prevented. so does lossing fish.

 

the first pic is the back of my tank. been running awhile. the backup has kicked in sevral times. is loud so that you know it running, durso. normally with the skimmer and everything running volume is bout 30/35db (sound meter).

Edited December 8, 2009 by bitts

[bitts]

the equasion for velosity of water through an opening ( hole)

 

v = 8 x the squar root of the height of the water ft/sec

 

 

the rate of flow (speed of flow through a hole this size)

 

rate = A (area) x v (velosity)

 

rate = 8 x A x the squar root of the hight of the water x ft cubed/sec

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

someone correct me if ive gotten this wrong but im pretty sure.

[timdanger]

the equasion for velosity of water through an opening ( hole)

 

v = 8 x the squar root of the height of the water ft/sec

 

 

the rate of flow (speed of flow through a hole this size)

 

rate = A (area) x v (velosity)

 

rate = 8 x A x the squar root of the hight of the water x ft cubed/sec

 

 

someone correct me if ive gotten this wrong but im pretty sure.

 

 

do you only use the the area/height of the water that is above the intake of the drain pipe? it seems like you would only use that. so, in a herbie, how much is that really going to be? not that much, right?

 

on the other hand, i'm not an engineer.

[bitts]

do you only use the the area/height of the water that is above the intake of the drain pipe? it seems like you would only use that. so, in a herbie, how much is that really going to be? not that much, right?

 

on the other hand, i'm not an engineer.

 

 

yes its just height of the water above the drain point. usally 4-5 inches is all you need. run mine just above 6" to make it as quiet as posable. but thats the only reason.

area is of the "blank" size of drain. in our casse normally size of the bulkhead.

[MedicBMC]

So in the herbie overflow do you want some water to reach and flow through the emergency pipe? Or none at all?

 

Which is better? Ball valve or gate valve?

Edited February 11, 2010 by MedicBMC

[bitts]

So in the herbie overflow do you want some water to reach and flow through the emergency pipe? Or none at all?

 

Which is better? Ball valve or gate valve?

 

 

a gate valve will have more control, ball valves are less expencive.

 

the water line should be as close to the wier as posable, while staing just below the backup drain.