LR - better from LFS or MO

[teevee]

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[CRG]

Seems that it would definitely be cheaper from an LFS, depending upon where you live.

[justvern]

There are benefits and drawbacks to both.

Generally speaking, LR from the LFS is going to be more expensive per lb. than you can buy it online, however you can hand pick each individual piece, it will generally be "cured" and have less dieoff and you can buy smaller quanities.

Buying online you can generally get larger quanities at lower cost but you will have to clean and "cure" it yourself and it may take longer for the tank to be ready for adding livestock ( however the dieoff can be used to cycle the tank). A benefit and a drawback of MO is there will often times be more life in and on the rock. Some of the hitchhikers may be wanted others won't be. Whether you buy it from an LFS or MO each piece should be checked for pests before adding it to your tank. Also you can't see what you are getting before hand but you can order the specific type of rock you want rather than having to take whatever the LFS happens to have.

Personally if I was setting up a larger tank and could purchase at least one full box of rock I would order it online.

[Deimos]

Teevee,

 

I just finished getting my 10 gal nano setup and just added the LR two day ago. I seriously considered buying it online..but found the price to be outrageous. Good LR online (from places like Harbor, Inland, Premium, etc) is around the $4-5/lb range BEFORE shipping. I got price quotes..and after shipping the price shot up to about $8/lb on small quantities (10-20lbs) that you would need for a nano. I found this to be QUITE prohibitive. So I went to the local LFS's and shopped around. I found some absolutlely AMAZING Tonga Branch for $6.50/lb...the hitchickers on it were great too (star polyps, zoanthids, sessile ctenophores, 'pods, bristleworms, spaghetti worms, a little macro, tube worms, feather dusters, coraline algae, 2 as yet unidentified anemones (not aptaisia), et al.). For nano's..I'd suggest going to your local LFS and buying there..its just more economical, and IME, comes with just as many hitchhikers as MO rock.

 

Later (YMMV)....

[WhiteRat]

Well, I have only had it four days, and I have read about people who have had very different experiences, but here's my mail order rock experience:

 

This was going into a 30-gallon tank, so...

 

I went with Tampa Bay Saltwater (tbsaltwater.com) specifically because of their package deal and its cheapness and what I had read from others about their stuff. I picked my rock up from the airport and so far nothing large on it has died at all. It even looks like the sponges are going to survive well!

 

So far the only 'hostile' I have found is one Aiptasia and there's a peppermint shrimp out there somewhere with its name on it.

 

Anyway, cost-wise, here's what I got:

 

60# of live rock, 30# of live sand, and a bunch of detrivores, all for $343. This comes in two shipments (you get half the rock and the detrivores after your tank has cycled on the first half and the sand). And it cost me $60 to pick up the first shipment at the airport (I expect the same on the second shipment) So looking at the prices, I'm looking at about $460 for 60# of live rock, 30# of live sand, 60 blue legs, 15 turbo snails, 2 cucumbers, a brittle star and a pistol shrimp.

So if you think of it in those terms, it's quite a deal even with the shipping.

 

A 10 gallon tank with their sale package is $135 for 20# of LR and 10# of sand plus associated detrivores proportioned about the way the above were. Since they sell sand for under half as much as they do rock, (I'm guessing from the descriptions that what you're getting is 'boat run rock') and added up separately the detrivores cost about $70, you're paying about $55 for 20# of LR and 10# of sand. If we go for the sand costing half as much as the LR, then you're getting your LR for about $2.25 per pound. Normally they sell boat-run for $4.50 so when you get the package with all the detrivores you're looking at getting your rock about half-off.

 

And if you haven't seen the rock I got, it's )(*@##@@# gorgeous. I mean, I have no words.

 

I took a bunch of photos and put them up at http://www.bastet.org/~whiterat/reeftank if you'd like to see it.

 

Understand, this is just my experience and obviously other folks out there have had better and worse luck with MO coral (search for the one dude who got a snowflake eel hiding in his live rock!!!)

 

Ratty

[tinyreef]

whiterat,

maybe i read that wrong but 15 turbos, 60 blues, 2 cukes, shrimp, and a brittle star for a 30g is a BIT much! i'm not even going to bother putting my usual 'imo' there. 20 blues, 5 turbos and the shrimp would've been my high limit.

 

just fyi, be careful of die off which can then crash everything. make sure they (tbs) allow you sufficient cycle time before the detrivores come rumbling in. you may want to even trade off some for corals and stuff imo.

[WhiteRat]

This is one problem with the current state of the art in reefkeeping...There are many ways of doing it that will succeed if done carefully and properly and many of those same ways will screw up people who don't follow the instructions.

 

Additionally, we're dealing with highly complex living critters and entirely RANDOM starting conditions. No matter how cured your rock is, unless you take dead, dead, dead rock and inject laboratory-raised coralline algae into your tank to grow on it, you have NO clue what else is along for the ride until a few days after the rock is in your tank.

 

tbsaltwater's numbers are at the following web address:

 

http://www.tbsaltwater.com/package_chart.html and you can find people on many of the online boards who have had entirely successful tanks founded on these numbers. Additionally, look at TBSW's history in the reef field. They hold Florida coral aquaculture licenses number One and number Two. They've been around forever and a day. When I was a kid, my dad bought from them for his salt water (non reef) tank. I have to think they are basing their numbers on some empirical experience here.

 

On the other hand, you can also find people who've had trouble starting from the same packages in the same tank volumes. Live rock is somewhat random. It's hard to say what wild-card conditions on the rock or in any particular person's tank make for success or failure by just quoting statistics.

 

So while I think we can all agree that you can overload the tank and cause yourself troubles, I'm guessing there's a fair bit of evidence to support (at least in a reasonable number of cases they have direct experience of) TBSW's choices for their numbers on detrivores-to-tank-volume-to-rock-and-sand-weight.

 

So before you make blanket statements in a newcomer forum that 'that trick doesn't work' I suggest heartily that you go study what they are doing and how.

We all have different experiences in reefkeeping. Those wild cards are what make life interesting. (Still wish I'd drawn the 'you get a lucky free snowflake in your live rock!' card though. Dang!)

 

Ratty

[tinyreef]

ratty,

i very rarely make blanket statements of any kind. those i do make are usually slam dunks. my point is, a lower bioload to start out with. that's all.

 

you're absolutely right btw. tbs's setup may work and it may work very often but i'd bet a LOT of my money (vs. others' money) that a lower bioload has a higher chance of success. its your money and your system. i'll be the first to say (and i usually am) that there is no one way to keep a reef. but there are some questionable ways. :

 

this is a beginners forum, that's why i made my conservative statement. i'm going by pers exp. and others to give advice that has a higher chance (imo) of success AND a lower cost.

[WhiteRat]

Hmmmm. Okay, a very good arguement. And one I will not refute.

 

Trouble is with so many of the statements well-meaning folks make is, well...So much to do with small reefs and general reefkeeping is NEW. Ten years ago, popular wisdom would've been 'no way can you keep corals in a tank under thirty gallons!'...And not so many years before that, 'no way can you keep corals'.

 

I think it's a good thing for any beginner in something so variable to study all the options they can and make choices based on doing that homework. Sift the options and decide what they are willing to try.

 

For example, in no way will I imply that trying to cycle a tank with a high bioload is easier than a low bioload. Far from it. More *can* go wrong.

 

The big decisions on starting reefs seem to oscillate back and forth between cured and uncured rock. The advantage to cured rock is, minimal die-off, easy cycling, no nasties you will have to evict from your tank. The disadvantage is in lack of biodiversity. The advantage to uncured rock is incredible biodiversity, coupled with potentially high die-offs and potentially difficult and critical cycling...Not to mention the terrors that could be hiding in the cracks and will require evicting!

 

Being a beginning reefer myself, I'm not in a position to truly say 'X works, I have done it myself'. But already just from looking through many LFS (and not-so L-FSs) I've seen just how amazingly variable what 'live' and 'cured' rock seems to be.

 

Based on a fair bit of salt water tank time, though, I am of the opinion that a tank which cycles with a bioload close to the final bioload will experience fewer ups and downs than one which is built gradually. Again, I will reinforce the word *opinion* 'cuz that's all it is.

 

The trouble with doing it that way, of course, is -keeping- that bioload alive during the cycle! Tough and requires a ton and a half of waterchanging and constant maintenance and it's easy to argue that you'll have some unhappy tenants while you're doing it. Cured rock would no doubt be easier.

 

I made a choice for biodiversity. I'm taking some risks and I know it. Probably when I point out what I'm doing and how well it seems to be working for me I should be more vocal about the fact that it might *not* be working so well. Perhaps I'm lucky. But I am not entirely sure that 'beginners' shouldn't be presented with the option of risk.

 

Then again, I truly feel that this is an even trade-off. You're trading time for effort. You'll need to monitor the snot out of a heavily loaded system. You'll need to watch it like a hawk and be prepared for emergencies. Going the other way, trading away effort for time, can certainly result in as successful a reef...Or either way can result in a terrible a crash if the dire dice of destiny land on you both sixes down.

 

I think it'd probably be a smart thing to counsel all starters towards being prepared for those emergencies, having that oxygenated pre-mixed water on hand and ready. Understanding what signs to look for to stop a crash in its early stages... What 'tumors' to excise from the patient that is the tank.

 

...Then let them decide whether they want to up the ante on the time/effort slider. I'm a firm believer in people being more informed and then making choices they deem responsible based on that information.

 

Perhaps my enthusiasm hasn't led me to point out the potential down sides of the way I'm going about it, but I'm pretty darned sure that the TBSW system will work well if it is attended to in the fashion they suggest. They don't send the detrivores until you tell them that the tank has stabilized, for example.

 

It's late at night and I'm rambling a lot. Hopefully I"m making sense?

 

Ratty

[tinyreef]

ratty,

i too prefer 'uncured' rock (as you alluded a variably defined term). : but i only use uncured in new setups versus any intro later. as their intro into an already stable system is similar to dumping in a rotting carcass. :x

 

i really was not going to reply again (we agreed to disagree ) but i it seemed like you thought i was 'attacking' tbs's LR. far from it. i never mentioned their rock being bad or insufficient or in over-abundance or anything. actually, i assumed their rock was perfectly fine. imo it's actually rare to fine unsuitable rock (note: LR may be cheap, barren, or low porosity-the most critical aspect imo but that still doesn't make it unsuitable). brittleness, contamination, or incorrect composition would qualify as unsuitable rock imo. i realize the 60# is aquacultured so that may be just right for a 30g.

 

my whole point was the detrivore kit seemed overly large. i wasn't saying the tank may never support that kind of load eventually but it leaves you with less room for a pretty fish or sensitive inverts. also the mass introduction of life into a system (at anytime: cycling, mature, young, etc.) may throw it into a re-cycle or some die-off. those package deals ARE cheaper but imo you're better off introducing little by little (more $$$ but better survival ime). it's a fine line to dance. X)

[Djm9288]

i got mine from my LFS, and it is GREAT quality, I love it, and it wasnt pricy either!!

[WhiteRat]

Okay, we definitely agree on not adding uncured rock to an already happy tank! That'd be a nightmare and a half!

 

I haven't gotten the detrivores yet (still watching for my nitrites/ammonia to zero but frankly my ammonia hasn't gone up much at all...Holding steady at 0.3 mg/L while my nitrites have skyrocketed the past two days up to 3.3. Going to do a water change now, in fact...). I suspect that what will happen when they arrive is a brisk cleanup feeding frenzy of any algae and detritus followed by a reduction of detrivore population by cannibalism until it reaches a stable level. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on nitrite and ammonia levels throughout.

 

After that I intend to add to the tank very, very gradually with a few weeks between additions to check stability.

 

Ratty

[SteveC]

The only two things that really turned me off of TBS's "The Package" were the number of blue legs and the cuke. When I finally set up my tank with Gulf View rock (the DHL shipping was what ultimately sold me), I did add a few blue legs and after watching them over then next couple of months I'm really glad I don't have a ton of them like I would have if I'd gotten "The Package" from TBS. They're fine when they're little, but when they get big they turn into mean little buggers and they'll probably wind up killing eachother. I hope TBS also sent you some extra shells for them to grow into. X)

 

The other thing about blue legs is that they are a bit more on the "carnivorous" side of "omnivore" and your pod population will suffer. I've since moved my blue legs into the 5 gal. "cornfield" and added scarlet reef hermits, and my pod population has exploded. I can't prove there's a cause and effect relation here but it sure looks that way to me. I think "The Package" would be a better deal if you could substitute scarlets for blue legs, even if it cost a bit more that way.

 

On the main subject of LFS vs. MO rock, you have to answer that question for yourself because not every LFS has the same quality of rock (i.e., there is no typical "LFS rock"). If you have a really good saltwater LFS then they might have great live rock at decent prices. If your LFS sucks rocks then they certainly won't have good ones.

 

If you go to your LFS and the rock looks like concrete rubble with a few spots of coraline on it, then you will do better with any of the reputable MO rock suppliers. If you're just looking for the cheapest rock then I'm sure you can find some lumps of concrete full of mantis shrimp and aiptasia for dirt cheap in lots of places, both MO and LFS. :x