Ickypimp Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Hi guys, its my first time so... be gentle with me... i am a seasoned freshwater keeper... have kept many things over the years, marine was always something i always promised myself i would keep when i had the space ... well i just found the crazy world of Nano reefing,and i do have space I have been reading everything i can find and am about to bite the bullet i was hoping that if i outline my battle plan some of you pro's could fix the bits that need it.. Hardware... Tank is 24"x20"x12" (approx 20 gallons) 200 watt heater 24" overtank twin lamp T5 luninaire white-blue/blue 2x powerhead 1x170 gallons per hour attached to a UGF 1x100 gallon per hour to provide further water movement protein skimmer (lees-rated upto 40 gallons) inside.. 20 lb of cured fiji live rock 3 inch bed of live sand ok i plan to put the sand and rock work in place then just run the powerheads for a few weeks monitoring ammonia nitrite and nitrate once i am over the spike and the ammonia and nitrite are a 0 ppm and the nitrite is around the 0.6 ppm level weekly waterchanges of around 15% to help this, i would expect to get a diatom / algal bloom at which point a cleaning crew is added 5x bluelegged hermit crabs 8x turbo snails 1x sally lightfoot 2x skunk cleaner shrimp/ fire shrimp upon completion of the clean up and assuming that the water parameters stablise i would look at adding i royal gramma 1 fire dartfish 1x percula clown after 3-6 months of maturing i would expect to see some nice corraline growth but also be in a position to add frags from other sources... i know that thing NEVER go to plan but i am looking for a challenge... my cichlids are nice and all but they have servrd their purpose... any comments would be greatly appreciated.. martin Link to comment
Kogut Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 First off, welcome to the hobby. The heater will be plenty powerful. lol. Everything looks good to me. I'd say get margarita or astrea snails instead of turbo snails. I have 1 in my 20Long and it is soooo big and bulky that it knocks over frags on a daily basis. I'd also stay away from the sally lightfoot. I don't like crabs much, myself, but I do have an emerald crab in my tank that has been nothing but a blessing in algae eating and scavenging. Peppermint shrimps might work better than the 2 you have chosen because they have the added benefit of eating aptasia (which is a major pest in a new tank). The other 2 look cooler, but lack a lot of the practicality. If you get the dartfish, make sure you have a lid or some kind of cover. They are notorious jumpers, trust me. 3-6 months of no corals is what I did, also. I ended up w/ a great tank filled w/ a lot of life and a lot of pods. The system has been incredibly stable and has survived multiple near-crashes w/ great finesse. Now a few questions for you.... What kind of corals would you like to keep? Do you plan on skimming? What about some kind of refugium/sump (either a CPR style HOB or plumbed in)? Any kind of mechanical filtration planned? It does sound like you're more than willing to take your time and try to do everything right the first time. It's really good to see people like you on this board, Martin... Letting the tank set its own time frame and mature slowly is the best thing you can do when you're new in the hobby. You'll be tempted to STOCK, STOCK, STOCK! But I'm sure you'll do fine. Good luck to you and keep us posted on any new ideas/changes/progress! Link to comment
Ickypimp Posted July 11, 2005 Author Share Posted July 11, 2005 Hi kogut Thanks for the reply..., the heater.. hmmm well i live in england, it aint so warm here, i had a 100 watt on the same tank and it seemed to be on alot so the 200 watt was bought and it seems fine. skimming, yes i intend to skim, i have an airdriven counter current afair Mechanical flitration i have an undergravel fliter, i know that these are not fashionable, however, i have had alot of sucess with them in my freshwater tank, one of my LFS runf undergravel in his marine tanks (and has for the betterpart of 50 years) also it strikes me that with all that extra biological filtration there and with the powerheads running you would be mad not to take advantage. The sump/refugium isnt really an option for me at this time, (purely a space issue) i do appreciate the benefits of such a system butalas my "artizans cottage" (shoebox) means that space is very limited as for what kind of corals to keep ... well i am new to this and a try to apply a K.I.S.S. methodoligy to my projects but thus far i would be thinging about Zoanthids (Palythoa etc), Photosynthetic Nepthea, Rhodactis.sp, Lobophytum sp and maybe Xenia sp. The corals are what i am currently reading about now i really love the SPS's but slow and steady wins the day more reading first Thanks for the kind words, the reason i dont wanna rush ?? as mentioned i am a seasoned aquarist, i am also a professional biologist so i appreciate the intricacies of the nitrogen cycle and biotope stability more than most Martin Link to comment
dianne Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Martin, the undergravel will oxygenate the sand and prevent the anoxic zone most of us want to have for denitrification. But then the live rock may provide enough. Aside from that, something I did that a friend of mine didn't do... I started feeding my filter feeders with DT's phytoplankton almost as soon as the sand was settled in. My tank only went through a mini-cycle and has been at 0-0-0 for weeks, while his still has 20-30 ppm nitrate. My theory is that I may have avoided a lot of die-off that way. You might want to consider doing the same. Link to comment
proraptor Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Do not get the blue leg hermit crabs they are MEAN! They will kill your snails for their shells. Get the red scarlet hermet crabs. Also do not get Turbo snails, they get huge and knock over rocks. Link to comment
steelhealr Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Some thoughts: 1) Way too many turbos; if you want them, go with only 2-3 or less 2) Watch the water level..if it drops, that heater might fry your tank. Very powerful for a 20. Make sure you disconnect it when doing water changes 3) I'd ditch the sally lightfoot if you are going to keep corals. They get a lot of bad press here. 4) agree with the margarita and astrea snail recs; ceriths are excellent too. Thumbs up on the skunk cleaners. 5) Beware...having a lot of FW experience helps, but, marine is a horse of a different color. Welcome aboard and I hope we can all help as you get up and running. SH Link to comment
Kogut Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 The "anoxic" zones are anaerobic zones that are free of oxygen and allow the heavy duty de-nitrification bacteria to thrive. If you have a shallow sand bed, these areas are few and far between and you want to make sure you have as many as you can get. I, too, am very anti-undergravel filtration for marine tanks. : Link to comment
Ickypimp Posted July 13, 2005 Author Share Posted July 13, 2005 Erm sorry guys, Anoxic and anerobic just arent the same.. (part of my current role is running the microbiology department ar portsmouth university) anoxic is a low oxygen environment anerobic is an oxygen free environment (I appreciate where you are coming from but if we are offering advice then lets make sure we know what we are talking about.i am not being pedantic, but ir is misinformation) correct me if i am wrong but as i read this what you guys are trying to achieve is a microbial system in which live rock provides NH4+ --->nitrosomonas---> NO2- (aerobic process) NO2- --->nitrobacter---> NO3- (aerobic process) then your sand bed NO3-+10e- + 12H+ --->Denitrifying eg pseudomonas.sp---> 2 N2 + 6H2O This is an ideal scenario during pure anerobic respiration, the reality of this system is thus, these organisms are aerobes and as such in any system where oxygen is present eg an anoxic system the vast majority of metabolism will occur via primary pathways, therefore nitrates will not be reduced secondly some of these organisms dont denitrify fully down to nitrogen and water, instead they employ nitrate reductase which will reduce nitrate to nitrite... we dont want that Thirdly looking at the dynamic of a tank environment and assuming you had good growth of denirtifying bacteria.. you have (in microbial nutrition terms) a reasonable amount of nitrate that has poor exposure to the microbes that utillise it, of you start moving water to move the nitrates then you move oxygen, your microbes go into a primary metabolism cycle and dont use then nitrates anyway ok the way i see it is this, ammonia and nitrite are far more toxic to fish than nitrate UGF helps further efficient removal of said in overstocked tanks (which all are) We all use RO water right... so the nitrates going in from that source are not a problem Nitrobacter use Phosphates for the production of ATP, the more nitrobacter you have the more phosphate gets used up, the less algal growth you get and also better calcification of your corals Protein skimmers reduce nitrates a good deal we do weekly water changes that dilute nitrates i appreciate that you guy are old pros at this and i am a mere noob, however, i do feel that the points i make have some validity and only by exchange of opinions and theory can hobbies like this progress, i dont mean to com across as a know it all and your ijnput is sincerely appreciated I have a couple of small tanks empty in the lab, i am thinking that it may be worth doing some ammonia dosing experiments with different setups, static sand, and UGF with different flow rates, maybe a slow movement of water through it may be a good compromise Link to comment
Orange Crush Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Ditch the UGF. You just don't need it. LR and water movement are plenty. Link to comment
dianne Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 I have a couple of small tanks empty in the lab, i am thinking that it may be worth doing some ammonia dosing experiments with different setups, static sand, and UGF with different flow rates, maybe a slow movement of water through it may be a good compromise Good idea, the ammonia dosing experiments, and please post your results! I can't counter your reasoning, not being well-versed as you are in biological processes. I only have: 1. What I have read - some research that indicates that a 2-3 inch sand bed of fine particles (whether silicate or calcium carbonate) is adequate to create a denitrification zone, with or without a plenum. This was based on one person's research using several 10-gallon tanks. Also, according to hobbyist experience, reef rock is dense enough to have anoxic zones as well. I'm guessing that with live sand and/or rock, two things are reducing nitrates. One is that water passes by or through anoxic areas in the sand and/or rock. If it is indeed passing through, then by the time it reaches that zone, it must be fairly depleted of oxygen, so that it does not oxygenate the area. The other thing is that wild collected sand and rock, and material that has been acquacultured by long-term exposure to same, contains filter-feeding detrivores that consume and reduce nitrates along with the denitrifying bacteria. 2. Keeping in mind that this is my first saltwater tank... After the initial sand minicycle (about 10 days) and the very tiny rock minicycle (about 2 days, I have not had detectable nitrates since. I have now finished stocking invertebrates (shrimp, snails, crabs, corals), and still have a 0 reading for nitrates. Having said that, it looks to me that an undergravel filter is just unnecessary at best. In addition, an undergravel operates not only as a nitrifying agent, but a mechanical filter as well, since the current pulls detritus down into it. I know what my filter cartridges (on my freshwate tanks) look like after only a week, and how often they need rinsing. I wouldn't want a mechanical filter I couldn't rinse out. I know that you can siphon off some debris during water changes, and that it all eventually gets liquified, but... and then there's the question of your sand sifters, such as hairworms, etc., and how comfortable they would be with the flow-through. But if you decide to keep the undergravel filter, let us all know how it goes. Link to comment
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