Nitrate and phosphate at 0 - turn skimmer off?

[Lakeshow24]

Hi again,

 

I have a mag tool nano skimmer in my 10 gal jbj nano cube, mixed reef frags with two clowns and a fire fish and some shrimp and crabs and snails.

 

My nitrates and phosphates are reading 0, which I am now understanding is bad for corals.
 

I am going to start dosing with neo phos  and neo nitrate but should I turn the skimmer off? Exactly what levels do I want? 
 

really appreciate all the help guys 

[sam_the_reefer]

With the LS you currently have, I would just feed more. (but that's just me)

[PODPIMP]

2 hours ago, xellos88 said:

With the LS you currently have, I would just feed more. (but that's just me)

Same here

[seabass]

IMO, over feeding to raise nutrient levels will also add excess organic, which can cause problems.  So you can increase feedings if you are currently under feeding, otherwise I'd dose inorganic nutrients.

 

You can leave the skimmer running while dosing.  I might shoot for 0.05 ppm of phosphate, and 5 ppm of nitrate.  Keep monitoring, as consumption levels will continue to change for awhile (first as restrictive levels are resolved, then as corals and other photosynthetic organisms start growing, until finally a more predictable balance is achieved).

[MLS_Reef]

Just a question about this. How long have your nitrates and phosphates been 0? Is it sustainable? Did the tank get there on its own? I literally know nothing about the idea of needing excessive nutrients and the idea of putting them back in the tank.

[seabass]

5 hours ago, MLS_Reef said:

I literally know nothing about the idea of needing excessive nutrients and the idea of putting them back in the tank.

People will argue what qualifies as "excessive."  What used to be considered maximum levels are now considered by many to be minimum levels.  I recommend phosphate levels to be between 0.03 and 0.20 ppm.  Nitrate levels might not be as critical, but anything detectable, yet still under 20 ppm, should be alright.

[seabass]

Note that higher nutrient levels support photosynthetic life including corals and algae.  Additional herbivores and manual removal might be needed to help deal with additional algae growth.

[MLS_Reef]

Just now, seabass said:

People will argue what qualifies as "excessive."  What used to be considered maximum levels is now considered by many to be minimum levels.  I recommend phosphate levels to be between 0.03 and 0.20 ppm.  Nitrate levels might not be as critical, but anything detectable under 20ppm should be alright.

Thanks @seabass So assuming there is nitrates and phosphates in the system but in this gentleman's case they are 100% consumed or removed. What about getting more critters and coral to expand the size of the cycle instead of using supplements. I would be nervous to do both ate the same time. Also on a new tank less than a year old do they recommend this? If the tank is really not using calcium and alk and growing. Is this the option?

 

[seabass]

6 minutes ago, MLS_Reef said:

Thanks @seabass So assuming there is nitrates and phosphates in the system but in this gentleman's case they are 100% consumed or removed.

Test kits show what's available for consumption.  Nutrients which are already consumed are not available.  However, you're right in that undetectable levels doesn't mean there is no input; ammonia produced is processed into nitrate, and phosphate is introduced whenever you feed.

[sam_the_reefer]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

IMO, over feeding to raise nutrient levels will also add excess organic, which can cause problems.  So you can increase feedings if you are currently under feeding, otherwise I'd dose inorganic nutrients.

 

You can leave the skimmer running while dosing.  I might shoot for 0.05 ppm of phosphate, and 5 ppm of nitrate.  Keep monitoring, as consumption levels will continue to change for awhile (first as restrictive levels are resolved, then as corals and other photosynthetic organisms start growing, until finally a more predictable balance is achieved).

Sorry, my reply was based on his tank size, LS, and age. (https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/425921-nuvo-10g/#comment-6098182) I suspect it's still stabilizing, so it might take a while for the numbers to go up. By "feed more" I meant very slightly...hehe

 

[sam_the_reefer]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

IMO, over feeding to raise nutrient levels will also add excess organic, which can cause problems.  So you can increase feedings if you are currently under feeding, otherwise I'd dose inorganic nutrients.

 

You can leave the skimmer running while dosing.  I might shoot for 0.05 ppm of phosphate, and 5 ppm of nitrate.  Keep monitoring, as consumption levels will continue to change for awhile (first as restrictive levels are resolved, then as corals and other photosynthetic organisms start growing, until finally a more predictable balance is achieved).

Sorry, my reply was based on his tank size, LS, and age. (https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/425921-nuvo-10g/#comment-6098182) I suspect it's still stabilizing, so it might take a while for the numbers to go up. By "feed more" I meant very slightly...hehe

 

And yup, leave the skimmer running.

[Tired]

My first inclination would be to simply stop doing water changes. Resume them once they're actually needed, i.e. once nutrients are high or minerals are low.

 

And, yes, make sure you're feeding everything as much as it wants to be fed. Fish should get a nice meal daily, shrimp and crabs either need to catch scraps or be fed at least every couple days (ideally daily for the shrimp if it really is catching nothing), LPS corals will benefit from a feeding once a week or so. Don't overfeed, just make sure you aren't underfeeding.

[mcarroll]

12 hours ago, Lakeshow24 said:

I am going to start dosing with neo phos  and neo nitrate but should I turn the skimmer off? Exactly what levels do I want? 
 

really appreciate all the help guys 

Good advice so far, just adding on here!

 

Dissolved nutrients aren't removed by the skimmer, so you can keep it running.

 

In a new system, corals tend to be much more dependent on dissolved nutrients than after they and the tank have matured more, when more nutrients are recycled in the tank and less nutrients end up "free" in the water.  The process of photosynthesis has certain specific needs that figure in here.  (PO4 ≥ 0.03 ppm)

 

In the "mature reef" scenario, it's possible to have NO3 and PO4 levels below detection on your test kit, but still have happy corals.  This is NOT a "low nutrient tank" – very often these tanks have large fish populations and get fed very heavily – this is a mature reef in action, where nutrients are recycled aggressively.  Aggressive recycling prevents nutrient from being lost to the ocean and assures the success of the reef.  In most cases it seems to take a year or two for this level of maturity to kick in on a reef tank...dependent to a significant degree on the quality of live rock you start with.

 

As for your next action, you can let your corals guide you.   Right now you're responding to rules of thumb....like recommended test levels.  It's hard to recommend doing anything very severe just on that basis.  If your corals are still looking great and growing more or less as expected, then you can feel low pressure to make any big changes.   I'd still probably make a change or two, but they can be well considered changes that you take your time with.  There are good suggestions on this front already in the thread.  👍

[Lakeshow24]

7 hours ago, MLS_Reef said:

Just a question about this. How long have your nitrates and phosphates been 0? Is it sustainable? Did the tank get there on its own? I literally know nothing about the idea of needing excessive nutrients and the idea of putting them back in the tank.

My N03 and PO4 have been 0 since about one month in, so about a month ago. I got some really good answers here. 

[Lakeshow24]

Thank you all for the great responses…as a reeder back into the hobby with a a nano on my office desk I am looking at all day my inclination is to try and be active in doing stuff all the time lol. I remember when I had my old 40 gal beautiful reef 20 years ago it was pretty much autopilot. I think I just need to let it do its thing and base my changes on the overall look and happiness of my corals and livestock. I’ll keep the skimmer running to remove the organic waste and check back in with an update in a month or so! Thanks again! 

[TheKleinReef]

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Dissolved nutrients aren't removed by the skimmer

 

misleading. (OP be careful of mccarroll advice, it's often very misleading or flat out wrong).

 

skimmers will removed dissolved organics from the water reducing the amount of the organics that break down into nitrate and phosphate. It's not removing pure nitrate/phosphate.

 

aside from that:

i wouldn't dose nitrate or phosphate. it's a gamble in such a small system. put the skimmer on a timer or feed more. What i did to combat 0/0 was to put some pellets in the filter socks every day while tuning my skimmer down over a few weeks it slowly increased my N/P to the point where it's always 5No3/0.07po4

 

It's also important to acknowledge that testable 0/0 isn't the same as observable 0/0. If corals look healthy then don't change anything to chase a number. If it's 0/0 and corals look stressed, then it's time to change something up, but do it one change at a time. don't change too much too fast. often times tests kits have an error range/ or the consumption:addition ratio is perfectly balance which can show 0.

[Lebowski_]

2 hours ago, TheKleinReef said:

 

misleading. (OP be careful of mccarroll advice, it's often very misleading or flat out wrong).

 

skimmers will removed dissolved organics from the water reducing the amount of the organics that break down into nitrate and phosphate. It's not removing pure nitrate/phosphate.

 

aside from that:

i wouldn't dose nitrate or phosphate. it's a gamble in such a small system. put the skimmer on a timer or feed more. What i did to combat 0/0 was to put some pellets in the filter socks every day while tuning my skimmer down over a few weeks it slowly increased my N/P to the point where it's always 5No3/0.07po4

 

It's also important to acknowledge that testable 0/0 isn't the same as observable 0/0. If corals look healthy then don't change anything to chase a number. If it's 0/0 and corals look stressed, then it's time to change something up, but do it one change at a time. don't change too much too fast. often times tests kits have an error range/ or the consumption:addition ratio is perfectly balance which can show 0.

 

Just out of curiosity - why is dosing a gamble? I would imagine it’s a more controlled and predictable approach than pellets in the filter sock, as you can fine tune and you are only adding exactly what you want to.

 

 

[TheKleinReef]

31 minutes ago, Lebowski_ said:

Just out of curiosity - why is dosing a gamble? I would imagine it’s a more controlled and predictable approach than pellets in the filter sock, as you can fine tune and you are only adding exactly what you want to.

 

 

dosing nitrate adds alk. The conversion of ammonia through the cycle to nitrate consumes alk and the conversion of nitrate to nitrogen will release alk. Which ideally nets to a 0 change in alk. 
 

dosing nitrate won’t add much alk but it’ll contribute to an increase in alkalinity. So depending on alk consumption dosing nitrate could raise your alk. (It’s what happened to me). 
 

if you don’t add nitrate but rather just add more of a food source or decrease mechanical filtration you can skip this issue entirely. 
 

Pellets were more of a test of proof of concept. Adding more foods was the goal. I just happened to do it that way at the time. Whatever way you want to increase nutrients would be fine. 

[TheKleinReef]

33 minutes ago, Lebowski_ said:

controlled and predictable approach

Yes and no. Sure 10ml did reliably increase my nitrate perfectly but man did it mess with my alk for months even after I stopped dosing nitrate. 

[Lakeshow24]

15 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

Yes and no. Sure 10ml did reliably increase my nitrate perfectly but man did it mess with my alk for months even after I stopped dosing nitrate. 

 @TheKleinReef thanks so much for the advice. I will continue to monitor the looks of my corals…I’ve only had them since Sunday lol. 
 

one other quick unrelated question…I have a removable glass top on my cube and I’m wondering if that reduces the light my corals are actually getting, especially when it gets salt creep. 
 

any truth to this, and if so what should I replace it with? See photo 

[TheKleinReef]

It likely is, but probably won’t be a super big deal. 
 

if you’re worried about the drop in light you could try a mesh top lid. There’s a few companies that make prefab ones but there’s always the diy route. 
 

BRS has little clips for the corners that hold the lid flush with the top similar to the innovative marine lids. 

[Lakeshow24]

@TheKleinReef right on thank you brother! 

[Tired]

I would personally stick with the solid lid, as that will reduce evaporation by quite a lot and help keep salinity stable. You can increase the light's settings, or move it a little lower, if you're worried. Shouldn't be a problem unless you have some extremely light-demanding corals, though.

 

FWIW, "a mature reef may seem to have low nutrients on testing while actually having a lot of nutrients involved in its ecosystem" is entirely right. Also, a skimmer won't directly remove pure nutrients, but it can remove things that will become nutrients, so it can have some impact on nutrient levels. It also removes a lot of materials that some corals and filter-feeders eat. 

 

The best thing to do for any reef tank is to feed as much as the animals need. The best thing for most systems is to only do water changes when it's warranted. If doing those two things is producing low nutrients and visibly displeased corals, then you would want to try shutting off the protein skimmer.

[mcarroll]

21 hours ago, Lakeshow24 said:

one other quick unrelated question…I have a removable glass top on my cube and I’m wondering if that reduces the light my corals are actually getting, especially when it gets salt creep. 

Yes, and yes.  

 

You'd have to take some measurements to know how significant it is though.

 

You can get a lux meter app for free on your smartphone since all you need is a ballpark idea of the actual number.  Mostly you need before/after comparison numbers.

 

[Lebowski_]

On 5/23/2023 at 6:51 PM, TheKleinReef said:

Yes and no. Sure 10ml did reliably increase my nitrate perfectly but man did it mess with my alk for months even after I stopped dosing nitrate. 

Interesting! I didn't really think about alk. What do you think caused it?

 

I was able to dose nitrate with no impact on alk - helped me get through an early dinos stage that didn't seem to want to go away peacefully.