How soon can I start dosing?

[BioReefed]

2 hours ago, Tired said:

Hamsters need much larger enclosures with much deeper substrate than the pet store tells ya, so they're not necessarily that much easier. Though at least they do tend to be low on algae!

 

In all seriousness, if you want the easiest pet in the world, you want opae ula shrimp. Set up a brackish water tank in the 5-gallon range, let it sit empty until algae starts growing, then add shrimp. Top off with distilled or RODI water once a week, provide with indirect light, feed the tiniest pinch of food once a month (or not at all if dead bugs fall in sometimes), and they will thrive, grow, and breed. No equipment needed bar a light, and you can skip that if you can put the tank in indirect window sunlight. You actually want algae for these guys- they eat it! The main downside is that they're tiny, half an inch long, so they're hard to enjoy without putting your face right by the tank.

I tend to complain very often because I also lack of patience, and I chose to get into a hobby that requires lots of that. So I will be using this as a learning experience. I have spent way too much money already and it has been only 4 months to just quit. So, I have to ask too many questions now and try to keep my tank going. I understand now why so many people quit this hobby 😑. But I'm not, at least not yet, I want to win the battle against Cyano, I hate it very much.

[BioReefed]

25 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Did you pick up ESV BIOINC as well as Tropic Marin AFR?  I'd consider trading the AFR for some more ESV.   You don't need "pro-biotic dosing".   I think I heard that Tropic Marin doesn't actually recommend that for tanks under 1 year old anyway.  I agree, although I don't see that caveat mentioned on their website.  

 

I did got some ESV and it is the only one I have used so far just to raise my calcium and alkalinity since I noticed that not even with water changes done biweekly seemed to raise them. I will hold on the AFR for now and let my tank mature more.The only thing I have not test for ever because I have not gotten a test for that, is Magnesium.  I just realized that 4 months is not that long, but it seems to me that a whole year has passed. 

[BioReefed]

32 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Make sure you are using RODI that's 0 TDS as your base water.  If your filters are old, replace them.  (If your water is from the LFS, question them on these things.)

 

Are you feeding or dosing anything for the gorgonians?

I'm using RODI water from my LFS just to top off and to clean my tank utensils etc. I started to use nutri seawater for the water changes which I do every two weeks.

I do feed all my soft corals, gorgonians, leather coral, GSP, and even the ricordeas once a week. I target feed with a mixture of coral food in powder, some phyto, frozen coral food, and some drops of aminos. They seemed to like it, and my peppermint shrimp gets fed mysis 

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, BioReefed said:

I target feed with a mixture of coral food in powder, some phyto, frozen coral food, and some drops of aminos. They seemed to like it, and my peppermint shrimp gets fed mysis 

I have never seen amino acids NOT cause cyano.   Sorry we didn't ask about this first. 🤷‍♂️ Hind sight...20/20.

 

So at minimum leave that out of your cocktail.  But it could be that MOST of what you're adding becomes amino acids within short order.  That's what happens sooner or later to all the food added.

 

If you don't mind, I'd recommend dosing NONE of that regularly anymore.  (Once every few months TOPS....or even not at all.)

 

Certainly at least consider dosing nothing until after the cyano problem is long-gone.  Maybe when the tank is more mature and balanced it will handle the feeding better.

[Tired]

Ah, yeah, good idea. Any LPS you have can be target-fed pellets or pieces of mysis, which they'll be able to eat more easily. 

[MrP]

8 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Did you pick up ESV BIOINC as well as Tropic Marin AFR?  I'd consider trading the AFR for some more ESV.   You don't need "pro-biotic dosing".   I think I heard that Tropic Marin doesn't actually recommend that for tanks under 1 year old anyway.  I agree, although I don't see that caveat mentioned on their website.  

 

In any event, Tropic Marin (and others) makes other "all in one" dosing solutions, if that's the main aspect of AFR you were after.  

 

For example, Tropic Marin Bio Calcium, which is neat since it is dosed in powder form.  Also, TM has Carbo Calcium if you prefer to have a liquid product.  The main difference between those two and AFR is the lack of Mg.  Mg gets used at a VERY low rate though, so really not a big deal...not an issue at all on a new tank.  But this is also why TM sells Bio-Magnesium (which also supplies potassium).  All are super-easy to use.  I've used Bio-calcium personally...in my case, water changes with Reef Crystals was enough to maintain magnesium levels.   I switched to ESV and other systems due to expense once demand got higher though.

I always research, to the best of my ability, prior to using a product, and not once have I ever seen the 1-year recommendation for AFR. If this were true, it may or may not be, then Carbo Calcium would have the same 12-month recommendation as Carbo Calcium is the main ingredient in AFR. They are both calcium formate. AFR is also not probiotic dosing. Maybe you meant carbon dosing, which yes, technically it is. It is best to keep an eye on your nitrate if dosing AFR. 

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, MrP said:

Carbo Calcium is the main ingredient in AFR. They are both calcium formate.

Tropic Marin's pages on these products are vague on the ingredients....I take your word for it that "organic calcium salts" means calcium formate.

 

But now I fail to see why all the fanfare over AFR if all they did was add magnesium to Carbo Calcium (which nobody seems to care about)?  🤷‍♂️

 

2 hours ago, MrP said:

AFR is also not probiotic dosing. Maybe you meant carbon dosing

Many companies use the two terms interchangeably in marketing like this...I kinda have been too.   You might see "pre-biotic" in the marketing mix as well.  

 

The "problem" is the extra biochemical steps it requires to achieve your primary goal – which is dosing Ca and carbonates into the tank to promote coral skeletal growth (etc).

 

Formic acid...

It supposedly digests into methanol on its way to becoming alkalinity....so YAY carbon dosing and two-part dosing, all in one part.  

 

Almost sounds too good to be true.  😈

 

Jargon aside, the main point about AFR is that (like nitrate in the denitrification phase of the nitrogen cycle) the alkalinity component has to be processed bacterially before the alkalinity becomes available to the system.

 

There are other all in one dosing products on the market that do NOT work like this, BTW.  But we seem focused on TM....so that's what I've been focusing on so far too.

 

But I also spent time using Brightwell's Liquid Reef and Elemental products when I started out.  Very effective.  More direct than these "pro biotic" products.  So the BW options would be "better" in the current scenario, if a comparison like that is helpful.  (BW makes interesting use of powdered aragonite too, IMO...more of an indirect agent in the product, but for the corals rather than being for bacteria.  Not something that most folks consider under the circumstances, but has benefits.)

 

2 hours ago, MrP said:

I always research, to the best of my ability, prior to using a product, and not once have I ever seen the 1-year recommendation for AFR. If this were true, it may or may not be, then Carbo Calcium would have the same 12-month recommendation[...]

It's still a pretty new product, so by default there isn't a lot out there other than new user experiences.  It's also possible that someone misspoke or just made it up.

 

This 1 year thing came up in another thread I was on the other day with someone using AFR.  I think they said they saw it on the label somewhere.  

 

I definitely don't know for sure and it doesn't really matter.....I just don't promote products like this for use on new tanks or by new reefers.   Not because they won't work per se, but because simpler is better in both cases for more than one reason.

 

2 hours ago, MrP said:

It is best to keep an eye on your nitrate if dosing AFR. 

Nobody needs gotchas like this hooked into their coral dosing system when they are starting out.

 

Also, phosphate would be more crucial to watch than nitrate...IMO it would be best to watch both.  (PO4 is crucial for corals, but both can seeming trigger dino outbreaks.)  That makes products like these even more bother to use vs regular two-part or other options though.

 

But....if you've got a mature system then runs closer to 2.0 ppm PO4 and 50 ppm NO3, then using AFR wouldn't be big deal at all to experiment with.

 

(On the side, I have to be honest that I think/hope we're pretty much collectively done with the carbon-dosing/ULNS idea though, at least outside of niche use.  ULNS seemed nice on paper, but practically speaking it appears to be useless-or-worse.  It's certainly not the best or only model for coral reef water...it's actually a better model of open-ocean water, where there are no reefs and no land around.   And it's definitely not something new reefers ought to be applying to new tanks.  The only carbon our tanks should be dosed with is the carbon contained within coral mucus that is being naturally "auto-dosed" at the correct rate by healthy corals.  See "coral microbialization" for reference.)

 

 

[mitten_reef]

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

But....if you've got a mature system then runs closer to 2.0 ppm PO4 and 50 ppm NO3, then using AFR wouldn't be big deal at all to experiment with.

speaking from experience or just made this up regarding nutrient levels, do you have a referenced tank(s) to prove that much nutrient is required?  seems a bit hyperbole....🤷‍♂️  And experimenting is what this hobby is all about at the grand scheme of thing - one giant experiment to keep living things alive. 

 

Yes, it's a niche product.  But seems like you're just talking down on a product you haven't personally used long-term, or at all for that matter - based on your own personal "science".  

 

I don't disagree that different dosing systems have their own place and time in the tank's maturity level (and hobbyist's experience level) ; AND that for a new-to-hobby person should try to stick with the tried-and-true of 2-part dosing because it gives you that cause-and-effect that you can see the results right the way.  I'd consider 2-part dosing among the basic fundamentals of reefkeeping, along with water change, understanding nitrogen cycle, and the effects (both + and -) of N&P levels in your system.   

 

@mcarroll I'd like to see you post updates on your tank more regularly and give us a run down on what supplements you're using, what your parameters are, how often you monitor them.  It'd be very helpful for everyone reading your recommendations/comments to see how you maintain your tank, including the op here and @Llorgon.   

 

[BioReefed]

16 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I have never seen amino acids NOT cause cyano.   Sorry we didn't ask about this first. 🤷‍♂️ Hind sight...20/20.

 

So at minimum leave that out of your cocktail.  But it could be that MOST of what you're adding becomes amino acids within short order.  That's what happens sooner or later to all the food added.

 

If you don't mind, I'd recommend dosing NONE of that regularly anymore.  (Once every few months TOPS....or even not at all.)

 

Certainly at least consider dosing nothing until after the cyano problem is long-gone.  Maybe when the tank is more mature and balanced it will handle the feeding better.

I guess I keep on learning new things. I knew I didn't have to feed those type of corals, but I thought I needed since I don't have any fish yet and my tank has been going fallow for 7 weeks.

Also on top of the feeding I mentioned, not sure if this will make a difference or not, but, I'm  also adding some phyto drops daily since one of my gorgonians is not photosynthetic and it needs to be fed. Should I stop that too?

I have my fish on a QT right now, and will be ready to be in my DT in a week. Hopefully that will help my tank.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

1 minute ago, BioReefed said:

I'm  also adding some phyto drops daily since one of my gorgonians is not photosynthetic and it needs to be fed. Should I stop that too?

That does complicate things a little.

 

If you keep doing any of them (an option I mentioned), stick with the phyto drops.  (It's whole, unprocessed phyto cells, right?)

 

You could also just do "none" for a week or some other finite amount of time just to see if it makes a difference vs the cyano.....and then re-start the phyto.  

 

As you've noticed in other ways, Cyano does tend to respond quickly.  So, if you did a good cleanup of existing cyano at the same time you stopped all the feedings, you should be able to tell whether it's "working" within the scope of days.  Try to make everything else "business as usual" during those days.

 

BTW, I wonder if the gorgonian would enjoy regular powerhead-sand bed blastings as a natural kind of feeding in place of the phyto/etc?  Does it tend to respond while you clean the tank?

[BioReefed]

6 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Does it tend to respond while you clean the tank?

Thank you,I will stop all of that and check what changes. I will do the basics.

And the gorgonian is a red finger gorgonian, I see it is opens mostly at night,so that's when I was adding some phyto drops (phyto feast I'm using)