Phyace235 Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 Hello all! I'm new to the site and I was hoping to get a little advice. I'm re- designing my current 4 gallon system with HOB filtration into an identical tank with drilled drain and return and a 5 gallon sump in my dresser converted to cabinet. Now here's my vision; I like a minimalist design so I didn't want to go with another HOB overflow so I'm installing two bulkheads, one direct drain with a slip screen and and the other being the return. On the drain side I plan on having T Capped off and drilled to break syphon and a gate valve about half way down for precise flow control. On the return side I'll be using sicce syncra 0.5 or 1.0 seeing as anything over 100gph in this tank turns it Into a vortex. Head height on both sides would be no more than 1.5 ft. God forbid anything happens that the drain is clogged I'll have a tunze osmolator to kill the return pump. NOW...my question is with me finely tuning the input and output so much, would I really Need anything bigger than 1/2" bulkhead for either being such a low volume and not a ton of flow? I want the drain screen below water line and I'm just going to take half a day matching input and output equally. Thoughts? Advice? Am I crazy for doing this all for a 4 gallon? Thank you! ^^ Quote Link to comment
Reefkid88 Posted February 14, 2023 Share Posted February 14, 2023 I believe that gravity fed drains can handle 200gph. Being that your drain will travel less than 2 feet,I don't think ½" will be a problem. I would definitely suggest a Sicce 1.0 though,or even a Innovative Marine new mini DC pump that pushes 266gph for $100. 1 Quote Link to comment
Phyace235 Posted February 14, 2023 Author Share Posted February 14, 2023 So I may have underestimated the pipe length it's looking a little over two feet...about 2.5'. At that height I could probably upgrade the pump to Innovative Marine desktop pump rated for 326gph. And I'm assuming the strainers affect flow rate so would drilling for a 3/4" drain and keeping the gate valve be a smarter idea? While still keeping the return at 1/2"? Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 On 2/13/2023 at 7:18 PM, Phyace235 said: On the drain side I plan on having T Capped off and drilled to break syphon... Installing the Tee isn't necessary – what you need to be sure is that the drain works like a standpipe so it can only drain water down to a fixed (safe) level. On 2/13/2023 at 7:18 PM, Phyace235 said: ...and a gate valve about half way down for precise flow control. Installing any kind of restriction on a drain line (like a valve) is a no-no. (And not necessary.) On 2/13/2023 at 7:18 PM, Phyace235 said: God forbid anything happens that the drain is clogged I'll have a tunze osmolator to kill the return pump. You shouldn't have to invoke Him in order to prevent a clog. Or....He helps those who help themselves. 🙂 Your drain intake needs to be adequately protected – usually the weir or intake screen that comes with the drain is sufficient. But you do need to consider and plan for any peculiarities of the animals you plan to be keeping. Fixing a sponge or screening material over the intake helps in some oddball cases. The Osmolator can't shut off a pump other than the top-off pump. (With some add-ons and adjustments it probably can...but....) Tunze does make a more general purpose level controller that might do that out of the box. On 2/13/2023 at 7:18 PM, Phyace235 said: Need anything bigger than 1/2" bulkhead for either being such a low volume and not a ton of flow? In general you want to run a gravity drain at no more than 50% of its potential – that would be about 100 GPH for a 1/2" bulkhead. Past 50% and thee drain will become noisy. Under that and it will be totally silent. ...rounding up to 5 gallons for your system so the math is easy and the pump estimate is conservative. 5 gallons by 4X flow = 20 GPH 25 GPH if you want to go up to 5X flow to allow for wear and tear, etc, slowing the flow over time. 25 GPH...or about 95 liters per hour. According to Since.... ...even the Silent 0.5 will hit about 150-200 GPH at only 1.5' of head. Consider the Syncra Nano instead, IMO. On 2/13/2023 at 7:18 PM, Phyace235 said: I want the drain screen below water line and I'm just going to take half a day matching input and output equally. You are setting up a gravity drain. The bulkhead will end up right at the water line. Gravity drains require no such "balancing" like you describe since the drain simply handles the amount of water the pump is adding to the tank. 2 Quote Link to comment
Phyace235 Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 3:28 PM, mcarroll said: Installing the Tee isn't necessary – what you need to be sure is that the drain works like a standpipe so it can only drain water down to a fixed (safe) level So my idea of the drain was essentially going to be a durso standpipe from inside to outside the tank Forgive the crude drawing but this was my initial idea and I wasn't sure if the 90 degree inside the tank was essential to proper flow or noise reduction, I'm assuming yes since the intake stays below the waterline while the actual drain is at water level, right? On 2/19/2023 at 3:28 PM, mcarroll said: 5 gallons by 4X flow = 20 GPH 25 GPH if you want to go up to 5X flow to allow for wear and tear, etc, slowing the flow over time. Oddly enough I have a biocompact 25 filter running at its max of 60gph and it doesn't seem to be enough for some coral - I think somewhere between 90-100 gph is the sweetspot to keep everyone happy in different parts. I DID miscalculate the height and its closer to 2.5'...That being said should i stick with a sicce 0.5 or 1 0 and dial it down? Maybe it would conserve motor function running at 1/2 power as opposed to a smaller pump running full bore? Amd with me pushing close to the 50% drain capacity should I oversize the drain to 3/4" just as noise reduction measure? On 2/19/2023 at 3:28 PM, mcarroll said: The Osmolator can't shut off a pump other than the top-off pump. (With some add-ons and adjustments it probably can...but....) I did realize that after ready that it has a 5 min auto shut off and specialized power inputs and what-not. So I do have a relay and float switch setup that I've spliced into previous pumps that I intend on using just because I'm prone to Murphys law haha Thank you for all of the input, I've never had a drain that wasn't in an overflow box so this is very new territory 1 Quote Link to comment
growsomething Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 This kind of creative project is fun to see constructed compared to another standard tank thread. If you start another build thread for it, link it up in this thread. Had a few unconventional failures and they were still enjoyable to create. I don't think you can go wrong with Mccarrols tank advise, but I don't think a return shutoff would be necessary for myself if I have an oversized drain. 1 Quote Link to comment
Reefkid88 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I'm a mechanical plumber by trade and honestly,if a valve COULD possibly save a piece of equipment down the road in case of a possible freak accident..we just usually install one lol. You just never know,it could save your rear. That being said,do you need it..no. does it hurt ? Absolutely not. Besides maybe losing a couple gph of flow phst,I see no nothing wround with it. If you do so,I woukd suggest a double sided union ball valve. That will make breaking the overflow apart to remove,clean,replace sump. 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 6 hours ago, Phyace235 said: Forgive the crude drawing but this was my initial idea and I wasn't sure if the 90 degree inside the tank was essential to proper flow or noise reduction, I'm assuming yes since the intake stays below the waterline while the actual drain is at water level, right? Very artistic!! 🙂 Those kinds of contraptions should only be needed if you're driving your drains >50% capacity. Like I said that's where they start getting noisy. If you keep your flow rate down in the 4X to 5X territory, your drain should be naturally silent. A simple drain with an elbow fitting is all you need. And an intake screen something like this: 6 hours ago, Phyace235 said: Oddly enough I have a biocompact 25 filter running at its max of 60gph and it doesn't seem to be enough for some coral Are you using the return pump for all your in-tank flow or will there also be a powerhead or two? We might tweak the plan a little if you aren't using powerheads. 7 hours ago, Phyace235 said: should I oversize the drain to 3/4" just as noise reduction measure? 1/2" drain plumbing should be right in the sweet spot of the capacity for you.....50% of 1/2" is still 100 GPH. Your sump will need WAY less flow than that.....like 1/4 that amount. 1 Quote Link to comment
Phyace235 Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 6 hours ago, mcarroll said: Are you using the return pump for all your in-tank flow or will there also be a powerhead or two? We might tweak the plan a little if you aren't using powerheads. You raise a really good point, I suppose if I can keep slower flow through the sump/fuge then the macros will have more time to pull nutrients from the water. I DO have a sicce mi mouse pump with an output of 90gph and can use that as my main circulation and just use the return for surface agitation Quote Link to comment
braaap Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Have you already drilled it? If not why not a Lily Pipe? Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 5 hours ago, Phyace235 said: You raise a really good point, I suppose if I can keep slower flow through the sump/fuge then the macros will have more time to pull nutrients from the water. I DO have a sicce mi mouse pump with an output of 90gph and can use that as my main circulation and just use the return for surface agitation It's more about not going to excess and keeping close to the system's requirements – balance. 🙂 Make sure you get the tank rolling before you add a macro algae – ideally, you want your corals to already be established. It's possible by that time you won't want to use macros, depending how the tank plays out. Macros will be competing with your corals, and you definitely want to avoid anything like that at the start. 👍 If growing macros is a priority, then treat them like your livestock and not as part of the cleanup crew. This means making sure you're familiar with their care, including feeding requirements. Macros need a LOT of nutrients to grow rapidly. Without an adequate supply, your corals may be affected and the macro algae will probably just dissolve into the tank, creating a nutrient supply for (e.g) cyano. Quote Link to comment
Phyace235 Posted February 22, 2023 Author Share Posted February 22, 2023 4 hours ago, braaap said: Have you already drilled it? If not why not a Lily Pipe? I actually was considering it because jardli makes a short tank version of their product - that was going to be my option if I decided to go canister filter, that way I don't have two variables to balance since Its a siphon and I'm using a sump/fuge. Though the existing tank everything is in I'm going to eventually convert into a planted freshwater and use that setup. 3 hours ago, mcarroll said: If growing macros is a priority, then treat them like your livestock and not as part of the cleanup crew Yeah there wouldn't be an absolute ton - I've had it in the past, but I only plan on using a small bit of chaeto and keeping it cut back. I've just been pleased in the past with a little boosts in filtration it gives. I still have 90% of the stuff when I had a pod focused fuge for my mandarin, so it shouldn't be too difficult to get it back up and running once it's time. So by this point I have the drain pretty much figured out. Now I'm just battling whether I want to use the return as the primary in-tank flow and put something like an IM-spin stream nozzle on there... 80-90gph isn't a huge amount running through a 5.5 gallon sump. Or use a separate small pump as a powerhead Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 4 hours ago, Phyace235 said: Or use a separate small pump as a powerhead The numbers will definitely be significantly different if you decide to go that way. 10-20X would be a better target multiplier, for example. Powerheds are usually a better option when they are an option.....not sure in the case of a 4 gallon tank. 😉 Tunze's 6040 is rated down to about 5 gallons...pretty sure that'd still be overkill for you tho. There are other options, but prolly not that many! Interesting tank you'll have once it's running. 👍 Quote Link to comment
Phyace235 Posted February 23, 2023 Author Share Posted February 23, 2023 10 hours ago, mcarroll said: Powerheds are usually a better option when they are an option That was honestly my thought too, and in that case I might not even need to drill a return hole. Instead I could use something like a CPR Aquatics return jet or even the glass jardli outflow pipe and just forgo the intake pipe it comes with I appreciate everyone's feedback! This is definitely going to be a fun one to construct 😁 1 Quote Link to comment
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