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PJPS

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Looks really nice but I think coco worms and shrimp can be more sensitive and my understanding is that it’s usually better to wait a while longer before adding them to a new tank.


Hopefully yours will do fine with your close monitoring of your tanks, but I just wanted to mention it for any new hobbyists following your build. I believe feather dusters are considered easy, but coco worms are considered expert level.

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20 minutes ago, banasophia said:

Looks really nice but I think coco worms and shrimp can be more sensitive and my understanding is that it’s usually better to wait a while longer before adding them to a new tank.


Hopefully yours will do fine with your close monitoring of your tanks, but I just wanted to mention it for any new hobbyists following your build. I believe feather dusters are considered easy, but coco worms are considered expert level.

Very good point!  You need to keep food in the water.  In more mature tanks, this just kinda happens (little bits of stuff in the water). I dose live phyto daily, that’s their natural diet.  So if you’re keeping filter feeders, phyto should be fed. This is not “I’ve heard about phyto magic”, this is marine biology.  It’s all built on a phytoplankton base. Given it’s the base food in marine ecosystems, a little should go into any marine tank.  Always feed an appropriate diet to your pets.  It’s vital to know how to care for an animal BEFORE you bring it home.

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I would like to open a discussion on "tank maturity" in regard to non chemistry issues.  I'll open it with this controversial statement to kick things off.  Tank maturity is often a stand in for proper care.  If I told you that a dog needed a well lived in home so it can hunt crumbs when you don't feed it, I hope you'd be horrified.

 

*Know the needs of your pets and provide them.*  I think there's an overall lack of responsible pet ownership among hobbyists.  It's right in the label, are cat or dog owners hobbyists or pet owners?  If you want a hobby, leave pets out of it, try literally anything else.

 

Your aquarium is an ecosystem, you are a deity to anything in an aquarium. EDUCATION is key.  This is not a simple hobby.  Robots are simpler, biology is unpredictable, unless you guide it.  And even then it can get away from you.

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13 hours ago, PJPS said:

Let’s see if things open up tomorrow.  But you gotta admit, it’s pretty decent for 8 days, no?

 

61091B88-28E0-4434-B1E6-689DC12C2304.thumb.jpeg.95036d61ac2a091083cfca1ae26ab4ca.jpegE817F0DA-5F3C-4237-9CCE-3CF02E87F549.thumb.jpeg.7d85a7eefc3d3290c73de278c25d85c7.jpeg81375F60-2ED7-4B9D-8939-D688515F7CA7.thumb.jpeg.4d765f6915032511cdf62224289ca863.jpeg5429BF6B-9251-429D-86B1-EEFC495F3563.thumb.jpeg.7d480d036d3a5476c807fd8ffd36e604.jpeg

Very nice looking! 

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1 hour ago, PJPS said:

I would like to open a discussion on "tank maturity" in regard to non chemistry issues.  I'll open it with this controversial statement to kick things off.  Tank maturity is often a stand in for proper care.  If I told you that a dog needed a well lived in home so it can hunt crumbs when you don't feed it, I hope you'd be horrified.

 

*Know the needs of your pets and provide them.*  I think there's an overall lack of responsible pet ownership among hobbyists.  It's right in the label, are cat or dog owners hobbyists or pet owners?  If you want a hobby, leave pets out of it, try literally anything else.

 

Your aquarium is an ecosystem, you are a deity to anything in an aquarium. EDUCATION is key.  This is not a simple hobby.  Robots are simpler, biology is unpredictable, unless you guide it.  And even then it can get away from you.

 

This is kinda an expert level question/discussion. For any newbies looking. Please dont do this (insta stock a tank). I know he did and i did it. But just dont until you're far into this hobby or until some idiot like either of us writes an insta stock guide. 

 

So here's my take. There are 4 factors that id break this into...

 

Water Chemistry 

I believe you're right when it comes to water chemistry. If you can maintain good water chemistry and quality, thats half the battle of "tank maturity". Stable parameters are needed.

 

Algae Control 

The other half the battle is algae control. Unfortunately, as know, algae's have the ability to make corals suffer and compete for resources (nutrients, rock space, etc). A mature tank will have past the wost outbreaks of all common algaes. And the subsequent outbreaks will never be as bad. The concept being microbacterias which fight off these algaes are now in the tank. 

 

Overstocked CUC

And of course as ive seen you use here and myself as well - is to overstock the CUC to lower the chance of large algae blooms really gaining significant ground. This is balancing act as well. Overstocking upfront means some my starve in the long run. 

 

Additives at the right time

These days theres an additive for everything. Right tool for the job is key.

In addition if your quick enough on the draw, some microbacterias or additives or CUC or other adjustments at the right time can really curb problems at their first sign.

 

Then of course we have the question of..does this actually work? 

 

My last reef had automation problems (leading to water chemistry fluxes), GHA problems even with a reasonably cuc ..

which lead to coral deaths.

 

So there's questions of both viablility and long term success in my mind. Are there examples of people doing this successfully? Not commonly. So its kinda new ground.

 

Thats my take. 

 

 

Great looking tank dude. Im looking forward to seeing how it develops! 

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This is definitely not for beginners.  This is for those who know the processes at work, how to encourage them in an aquarium environment, and how to execute on that knowledge.  I thought I was being clear on this with the constant admonitions about knowing what you're doing.  IF YOU ARE A BEGINNER, DON'T TRY THIS.

 

Also please note, no fish, not one.

 

I don't agree about overstocking CUC.  In wouldn't consider it overstocked.I invite you to look into biomass comparisons in marine ecosystems.  CUC member are found in the primary consumers group. The only group with more biomass is primary producers (bacteria/algae/etc).  There is very detailed research on all of this.  Doing it in aquarium is different, but not drastically so.

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24 minutes ago, geekreef_05 said:

This is kinda an expert level question/discussion. For any newbies looking. Please dont do this (insta stock a tank). I know he did and i did it. But just dont until you're far into this hobby or until some idiot like either of us writes an insta stock guide. 

This 😉

 

Even with experience, when your tank is a week old, you really don’t know yet the trajectory it will take to become a mature ecosystem so it’s really best to take it a little more slowly in my opinion. 


I think you could have added a fish more safely than a coco worm and shrimp as long as you don’t have ammonia or nitrite and you’ve added beneficial bacteria. I’m pretty sure coco worms aren’t just considered expert level because they need phyto… feather dusters need phyto too and they are considered easy.

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OK, please explain, what a coco worm needs and why a 1week old tank, properly fed, can't live quite happily?  It's tube is calcium carbonate, but I can't imagine 1 CC based animal will outpace water changes.  Even better, explain how shrimp are sensitive.

 

I'm hearing a lot of hearsay, not particularly backed by any reliably sourced info.  Just looking for us all to progress our husbandry  ❤️.  Mature Tank means nothing unless you can tell me what it does specifically.

 

The goal here is to show, this doesn't have to be an unpredictable period in a tank's life.  It is unstable in a whole variety of ways.  I hypothesize this instability can be managed by stocking choices and thoughtfull planning.  I'll give an example.

 

I wanted a bunch of filter feeders (gorgs/worms), this means food availability in the water.  So crabs and snails will be well fed too.  Something needs to consume all the excess food.

 

That's an example of planning your ecosystem

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2 hours ago, PJPS said:

I don't agree about overstocking CUC.  In wouldn't consider it overstocked.I invite you to look into biomass comparisons in marine ecosystems.  CUC member are found in the primary consumers group. The only group with more biomass is primary producers (bacteria/algae/etc).  There is very detailed research on all of this.  Doing it in aquarium is different, but not drastically so.

 

A home aquarium will definately go through more vigorous algae explosions in the first year, compared to the rest of its life.

 

And within the first year there is often wild algae phases. 

 

So with a CUC capacity would have to heavier in the first year to combat the algae. But after that a much smaller CUC is typically needed. 

 

This is also because there is less open space for algae's to grow as coralline coverage should be taking hold and corals growning out.

 

That said...and im bracing for this in my reef...is curbing the initial GHA explosion. At that time it would be very useful to have an "overstocked" cuc. 

 

Once GHA is under control, the chances are that some CUC wont survive. But a reefer can always trade some into an lfs or give to someone at that time. 

 

In summary what im saying is that home reefs in their 1st year have ever changing algae fluxes. 

 

Ideally the CUC could expand and contract to match that flux.

 

So id say this is a very different situation than looking at ocean biomass because the ocean isnt in that kinda drastic algae flux. 

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1 hour ago, geekreef_05 said:

 

A home aquarium will definately go through more vigorous algae explosions in the first year, compared to the rest of its life.

 

And within the first year there is often wild algae phases. 

 

So with a CUC capacity would have to heavier in the first year to combat the algae. But after that a much smaller CUC is typically needed. 

 

This is also because there is less open space for algae's to grow as coralline coverage should be taking hold and corals growning out.

 

That said...and im bracing for this in my reef...is curbing the initial GHA explosion. At that time it would be very useful to have an "overstocked" cuc. 

 

Once GHA is under control, the chances are that some CUC wont survive. But a reefer can always trade some into an lfs or give to someone at that time. 

 

In summary what im saying is that home reefs in their 1st year have ever changing algae fluxes. 

 

Ideally the CUC could expand and contract to match that flux.

 

So id say this is a very different situation than looking at ocean biomass because the ocean isnt in that kinda drastic algae flux. 

yes BUT :).  You only limit algae growth if you don't scale your feeding with your tanks stocking.  If you have more/bigger mouths, you should feed them, not hope that you've balanced things perfectly.  Your tank has mouths ranging from microscopic to fish sized.  Your primary job is to get them all fed.  Way, WAY down the list are tank aesthetics.  Tank health is paramount, it's looks aren't.  And no, one isn't a particularly great measure of the other (within reason).

 

Here is the process you're describing, it occurs in the wild too.  It should start at 1:40, that section describes in detail that process of dwindling resouces for increasing community numbers.  I say in an aquarium you're in charge of the resources, you can engineer stability.

 

E: sorry, carrying capacity is 3:40(ish)

 

There's literally a formula

ScreenShot2023-02-23at2_45_17PM.thumb.png.0ce5d30f0a4bfd4afab31144f4219b11.png

 

I really believe if this were the information that was adopted and synthesized for aquariums, we'd all be much more successful, and $pend less trying to solve long-ago solved "mysteries".  I think much of it stems from a lack of engaging/entertaining presentation.  If it feels like school, it's not relaxing, and often even mildly traumatic.

 

Clearly I'm not the person who would be good at, nor wishes to do this.  But if any influencer is seeking a niche, there you go 🙂

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1 hour ago, PJPS said:

yes BUT :).  You only limit algae growth if you don't scale your feeding with your tanks stocking.  If you have more/bigger mouths, you should feed them, not hope that you've balanced things perfectly.  Your tank has mouths ranging from microscopic to fish sized.  Your primary job is to get them all fed.  Way, WAY down the list are tank aesthetics.  Tank health is paramount, it's looks aren't.  And no, one isn't a particularly great measure of the other (within reason).

 

Here is the process you're describing, it occurs in the wild too.  It should start at 1:40, that section describes in detail that process of dwindling resouces for increasing community numbers.  I say in an aquarium you're in charge of the resources, you can engineer stability.

 

E: sorry, carrying capacity is 3:40(ish)

 

There's literally a formula

ScreenShot2023-02-23at2_45_17PM.thumb.png.0ce5d30f0a4bfd4afab31144f4219b11.png

 

I really believe if this were the information that was adopted and synthesized for aquariums, we'd all be much more successful, and $pend less trying to solve long-ago solved "mysteries".  I think much of it stems from a lack of engaging/entertaining presentation.  If it feels like school, it's not relaxing, and often even mildly traumatic.

 

Clearly I'm not the person who would be good at, nor wishes to do this.  But if any influencer is seeking a niche, there you go 🙂

At 3:40 he is taking about carrying capacity. What ive been saying is that carrying capacity is in flux over the first year of a home reef. 

 

And once GHA hits, that really up's the carrying capacity. But when it subsides, then your carry capacity also lowers. 

 

Given that flux there's often either too many or too little CUC in a home aquarium, before it reaches stability. 

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21 minutes ago, geekreef_05 said:

At 3:40 he is taking about carrying capacity. What ive been saying is that carrying capacity is in flux over the first year of a home reef. 

 

And once GHA hits, that really up's the carrying capacity. But when it subsides, then your carry capacity also lowers. 

 

Given that flux there's often either too many or too little CUC in a home aquarium, before it reaches stability. 

the carrying capacity doesn't change, the organisms consuming the resources do, so you manage stocking. And as described earlier, you define the carrying capacity in an aquarium.   I'm not saying you're wrong, just incomplete.  You just shift resource delivery.  That mouth needs algae, whether I grow it in tank, or supplement it, the snail cares not 🙂

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Id say that concept works when you have too little food. 

 

Im interested to hear your plan for when the tank goes into a strong GHA phase and suddenly there's way too much food?

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18 hours ago, banasophia said:

Looks really nice but I think coco worms and shrimp can be more sensitive and my understanding is that it’s usually better to wait a while longer before adding them to a new tank.


Hopefully yours will do fine with your close monitoring of your tanks, but I just wanted to mention it for any new hobbyists following your build. I believe feather dusters are considered easy, but coco worms are considered expert level.

I really looked into this, to try to figure out the distinction (beginner vs expert).  Here’s what I came up with: the coco consumes calcium for their tube, and it can’t clear an air bubble so always keep it submerged.  Both of those are mentioned in any coco worm write up.

 

Feather dusters are essentially the same animal but they don’t have a calcium tube, and can clear an air bubble.  Obviously there are other differences, but they eat the exact same diet 😊.

 

The only source for an expert only rating I can find is live aquaria.  My guess is a lot of them die because of the improper handling, and they prefer their livestock guarantee be nullified because of that transferring quirk.  Care wise, they are indistinguishable from each other.

 

It did make me do more research on it, which taught me they like to be fed from behind if you’re target feeding, as it doesn’t startle them.  So thank you 🙏🏻.  I’ll likely never target feed it, but it’s good to know!

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Right after a powder feeding.  Flow had just restarted.

DD3E4C16-40AA-4ABA-90D8-E0D54DBAAB36.thumb.jpeg.11449671278b26d6613dab3f6b276fe6.jpeg

That worm on the left has never even peeked out (in the bag or tank) so I’m not sure if it ever will.  The other 3 dusters are very comfy.  The coco is spooked when the flow both stops and starts.  It’s out more than it’s hidden, but I think the calcium tube makes it very sensitive to vibrations (haven’t read that anywhere though).  So I may go sicce just for less vibrations.

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11 hours ago, PJPS said:

Add 5 snails as soon as I see it accumulating, otherwise change nothing.  That’s the plan.

 

Im curious to take it one step further because GHA control is such a key for success in a nano. So lets say you add 5 snails at first sign of GHA. Either one of two things will happen. 

 

1) GHA never builds more than a light green fuzz or tinge on the rocks. Snails keep it tamed. 

 

2) GHA explodes and grows too quickly for the additional 5 snails to handle.

 

What are you next steps in scenario 2? 

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Manual removal and 5 more, this repeats until it stops regrowing,I really don’t envision the exploision you’re imagining.  This whole experiment is to minimize GHA growth by keeping the grazers near primary production limits.  But if that happens, that’s the plan.

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These peppermint shrimp are so tiny, they go through the weir comb.  It's fine, we just rescue them each morning, but fattening the shrimp is now on the agenda.  They go nuts for powder food, so probiotics may feed them and not push the nutrients too hard.  Just RR would outpace my snail load by a mile.

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Probably missed the mark on snails given how much phyto I'm adding 15ml/day.  The glass is dirty in 24h, so 10-15 snails going in soon.  I'll up the phyto if they outpace it.

 

Coco worm is now out 80%-90%.  Spooks easy at loud noises (car door slam down on the street etc) but otherwise a fascinating addition.  No signs of life from that one feather duster 🤞 they're just regrowing their crown

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Hmmm tanks looks decent debating adding mor snails before adding a fish... not sure... it'll handle more for sure... more a $krilla thing.  Gorg need more flow, but no return flow.  It's already too fast for proper contact time with the media.  What low cost low power powerheads do you guys use.  I have an unused nero 3 mixing salt at the moment.  I may just replace that with something cheap from amazon. 

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Nero 3 for mixing ! Well, La dee da. 

 

I really like that powerhead (nero 3). Moreso than the vortech mp10s on my office reef. 

 

I mainly use a maxi jet 1200 for mixing and water changes. I have for like 20 years cause they are super reliable simple, versitile (lots of parts and mods) powerful and a hose fits on the end. And cheap. A nero is too expensive to use for mixing. 

 

I also have an old hydor k, which has a nice wide flow pattern. That helps. But thats also a simple low cost option. 

 

I toss them both into a 35 gallon bin for WCs, that i fill to 15 gallon. 

 

Not sure how they stack up in power...

 

...but id say the biggest powr saving for me was switching salts. Instant ocean was like a 12hr mix time. I often let it mix overnight. The Red Sea stuff i use is more like 30mins. 

 

For 30mins of mixing, ive found my heater became the limiting factor. Too slow. Probably big power draw. 

 

Hope that helps. 

 

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My 18yo maxi started making a crazy racket, so I stuck my old nero 3 in there, it' definitely a waste.  My SO just found an old utility pump, so that'll br the salt mixer... we'll see if I can get the polyps to open back up on the gorgs with a wee bit better flow.

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  • PJPS changed the title to ❤️🏚️The Love Shack🏚️❤️

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