5 gallon cylinder pico

[mxpro32]

I put together this pico from equipment I had lying around and live rock from the sump of my larger tank.  the tank is a 12x12 glass cylinder candle holder.  for filtration I'm just using a small hob filter.  the light is a kessil a160 from a nano I had years ago.  I added an azure damsel cause I think they are really cool, but I don't want one in my community tank.   

[Tired]

It's a really cool little setup, but that is not nearly enough space for the damselfish, particularly not as it grows. 

[mxpro32]

I've been gone a while.  we used to have tang police.  now we have damsel police?  a 5 gallon nano isn't big enough for a damsel?

[Tired]

The problem with cylinder tanks is that they have very little horizontal space. Most fish primarily use horizontal space, barring things like seahorses. A rectangular 5-gallon would be pretty heavily pushing it for a damsel (2-3", reasonably active), so a vertical tank is just too small. Even damsels deserve a good quality of life, yanno? A vertical pico is fine for perching and hole-dwelling fish, like pico gobies and barnacle blennies. 

 

Besides, I'm pretty sure azure damsels are in the springeri damsel group, and those are semi-aggressive at worst. They do fine in most communities.

[debbeach13]

The recommended tank size for azure damsel is 20 gallons especially if you have a pair. Which you do not. There have been 3-gallon Pico tanks homing a single yellow tail damsel for a couple years. Personally, a nice clown goby would be a better fit in your tank. But it is your tank. Since you mention having a community tank I am going to hope when the fish gets a little larger you seriously consider moving it to that tank. 

[mxpro32]

40 minutes ago, Tired said:

The problem with cylinder tanks is that they have very little horizontal space. Most fish primarily use horizontal space, barring things like seahorses. A rectangular 5-gallon would be pretty heavily pushing it for a damsel (2-3", reasonably active), so a vertical tank is just too small. Even damsels deserve a good quality of life, yanno? A vertical pico is fine for perching and hole-dwelling fish, like pico gobies and barnacle blennies. 

 

Besides, I'm pretty sure azure damsels are in the springeri damsel group, and those are semi-aggressive at worst. They do fine in most communities.

I'm thinking maybe the picture is throwing you off. It's not a "vertical" tank.  It's 12x12.  The tank magnifies the fish and makes it look larger by comparison.  If anything, a round tank makes it easier to swim around.  Damsels typically pick a spot and defend it anyway.  

[Tired]

Azure damselfish grow to 2-3 inches regardless of tank magnification, and a tank that's taller than it is wide is a vertical tank. A one-foot-square space isn't much room for a damsel, and they have more bioload than a pico really needs anyway. 

 

Why not try him out in your community?

[mxpro32]

I've been nano reef member for over twenty years and had many different nano reefs and reef aquariums.  when we started nano reefs everyone said you couldn't keep any marine life in a nano at all.  the idea that I'm being criticized for putting a 1" damsel in a 5 gallon nano is amusing.   we didn't even call 5 gallons a "pico" back then.  it was a nano, and you should have seen some of the setups and the bioload they handled just fine.  I understand your point of view, but you really don't need to talk to me like a newbie and get me to do what you want with my fish.

[Tired]

A 1" damsel is probably fine, yeah. A 3" damsel? Not so much, and therein lies the problem. Fish grow, and putting a fish in a tank that won't be adequate for its adult size only leads to stress down the road. A tank with a footprint that small is only appropriate long-term housing for perching fish, not active swimming fish, and an active swimming fish should not be put in a tank whose footprint in either direction is only four times its maximum length.

 

We owe it to these animals under our care to give them good lives. Not just lives that won't kill them early. We also owe it to new members to try and set good examples about things like what fish are and aren't appropriate for a tank half the size of a basic 10gal. Just because a tank can support a fish doesn't mean it should, like how bettas don't belong in vases even if the vase might not necessarily kill them.

 

I apologize if I've sounded rude, but I have no idea who you are. I have no way of knowing how experienced you are, or if your experience is in something other than small tanks. I tend to operate under the assumption that it's better to tell somebody something that they already know, than to assume they know something and wind up not giving them information that might be useful. 

[mxpro32]

9 minutes ago, Tired said:

A 1" damsel is probably fine, yeah. A 3" damsel? Not so much, and therein lies the problem. Fish grow, and putting a fish in a tank that won't be adequate for its adult size only leads to stress down the road. A tank with a footprint that small is only appropriate long-term housing for perching fish, not active swimming fish, and an active swimming fish should not be put in a tank whose footprint in either direction is only four times its maximum length.

 

We owe it to these animals under our care to give them good lives. Not just lives that won't kill them early. We also owe it to new members to try and set good examples about things like what fish are and aren't appropriate for a tank half the size of a basic 10gal. Just because a tank can support a fish doesn't mean it should, like how bettas don't belong in vases even if the vase might not necessarily kill them.

 

I apologize if I've sounded rude, but I have no idea who you are. I have no way of knowing how experienced you are, or if your experience is in something other than small tanks. I tend to operate under the assumption that it's better to tell somebody something that they already know, than to assume they know something and wind up not giving them information that might be useful. 

you are very persistent.  thats the issue.  you can't accept that I don't agree with you.  you have made your "opinion"  very clear by stating it as fact.  did someone appoint you the expert in fish psychology?  or are you anthropomorphizing and speculating the fishes psychological state?   rest assured you did your job:  you made your judgement clear.  you'll have to excuse me if I don't accept your opinion as my own.

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

sorry but "this is how it's been done for years" isn't actually a justification for continuing to do something; happily for the animals in our care, knowledge isn't a static thing and the growth of information available on appropriate captive conditions for marine organisms particularly has been exponential recently. Damsels are WAY too active and fast for such a small space. It's really not fair on the fish. Five gallons, regardless of the shape of the tank, is too small for one (and I'm assuming that measurement of 5g is before putting in rock/sand etc...)

 

I love this setup as a concept, but the stocking choices need to be reconsidered IMO - sorry. It's really not meant unkindly, and this could be a totally awesome little tank in time. But it needs to be awesome for the things IN it as well as those looking in from outside.

[mxpro32]

38 minutes ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

sorry but "this is how it's been done for years" isn't actually a justification for continuing to do something; happily for the animals in our care, knowledge isn't a static thing and the growth of information available on appropriate captive conditions for marine organisms particularly has been exponential recently. Damsels are WAY too active and fast for such a small space. It's really not fair on the fish. Five gallons, regardless of the shape of the tank, is too small for one (and I'm assuming that measurement of 5g is before putting in rock/sand etc...)

 

I love this setup as a concept, but the stocking choices need to be reconsidered IMO - sorry. It's really not meant unkindly, and this could be a totally awesome little tank in time. But it needs to be awesome for the things IN it as well as those looking in from outside.

go to liveaquaria.com and look in the nano fish section.  there are almost no fish with a recommended tank size smaller than 30 gallons. official recommendations will always be conservative.  do you guys have any fish in a tank smaller than 30 gallons?

 

 

[mxpro32]

anyway.  I have reef tanks to have fun and relax, not to argue with people and be judged.  there's enough of that in life.  I'm going to go enjoy my tanks and life.  I hope you do the same.  

[The Rainy Day Aquarium]

[thrillreefer]

Good start! “Damsel in distress” notwithstanding… sounds like you have a bigger home for it if/when the time comes. Good enough for me
 

What’s the plan for coral here? I hope you don’t plan on keeping any hard corals… they can grow to be several *feet* across and may shatter your tank as they do! Teehee

Kessil should let you grow almost anything if you can keep params stable. What you thinking? 

 

[yondermountain91]

Since you disagree with 'his' fish choice, do you disagree with keeping any beautiful sea creature locked up in any tank not the ocean? Asking for a friend...

 

@mxpro32 Cool little tank man, I'm super new so can't wait to see how this little thing comes along. I think I'm gonna go with a 15 gallon for my first tank. And twenty years in the hobby, safe to say you know what you're doing. Don't feed the haters ya know, they gonna hate, let them, you just do you.

 

 

[braaap]

This is interesting. Personally I think it looks alittle empty. A yellow tang or a blue tang along with atleast 2 clownfish would be better than the damsel. If you must keep the damsel I suggest getting another so they can fight.

[mxpro32]

22 minutes ago, yondermountain91 said:

Since you disagree with 'his' fish choice, do you disagree with keeping any beautiful sea creature locked up in any tank not the ocean? Asking for a friend...

 

@mxpro32 Cool little tank man, I'm super new so can't wait to see how this little thing comes along. I think I'm gonna go with a 15 gallon for my first tank. And twenty years in the hobby, safe to say you know what you're doing. Don't feed the haters ya know, they gonna hate, let them, you just do you.

 

 

mostly softies and lps probably.  maybe a frag of montipora or other easy sps.  

8 minutes ago, braaap said:

This is interesting. Personally I think it looks alittle empty. A yellow tang or a blue tang along with atleast 2 clownfish would be better than the damsel. If you must keep the damsel I suggest getting another so they can fight.

yeah, he definitely seems lonely, and there is extra water in there to put more fish.  

[InAtTheDeepEnd]

what a pathetic world we live in for people stating scientific facts and sticking up for the welfare of sentient creatures (which corals are not just fwiw for anyone reading this....) to be branded 'haters'. 🙄 grow a pair and accept sometimes you get things wrong - everyone does - and there's nothing wrong with putting your hands up and saying, 'hey, I made a mistake, thanks for pointing it out to me'.

 I'll hate all day if it saves a voiceless creature from suffering tbh 👍

 

"Your pride is not more important than your animals." 

[mxpro32]

2 hours ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

what a pathetic world we live in for people stating scientific facts and sticking up for the welfare of sentient creatures (which corals are not just fwiw for anyone reading this....) to be branded 'haters'. 🙄 grow a pair and accept sometimes you get things wrong - everyone does - and there's nothing wrong with putting your hands up and saying, 'hey, I made a mistake, thanks for pointing it out to me'.

 I'll hate all day if it saves a voiceless creature from suffering tbh 👍

 

"Your pride is not more important than your animals." 

oh shut up.  could you be more self aggrandizing?  you're such a hero.  I don't give a rip about your "opinions" which is what they are.  you have provided no such "scientific facts".  kick rocks.  I'm done with you.  if you really cared so much for the fish, you would have kept him in the ocean, or not bread him into a life of captivity.  

 

[Tired]

Being captive isn't inherently bad for an animal, as long as all its needs are met. A captive animal in a proper environment is under much less stress than a wild animal, since it doesn't have to contend with predators, rivals, untreated disease, or trying to find food. Key words being "proper environment". Like how responsible zoos work, or how a toad in a nice terrarium is a very happy toad indeed. 

[mxpro32]

28 minutes ago, Tired said:

Being captive isn't inherently bad for an animal, as long as all its needs are met. A captive animal in a proper environment is under much less stress than a wild animal, since it doesn't have to contend with predators, rivals, untreated disease, or trying to find food. Key words being "proper environment". Like how responsible zoos work, or how a toad in a nice terrarium is a very happy toad indeed. 

I agree with you.  I just disagree with you on what the "proper environment" is for a 1" fish.  I really am done discussing my fish with you guys though.  

[thrillreefer]

8 hours ago, InAtTheDeepEnd said:

what a pathetic world we live in for people stating scientific facts and sticking up for the welfare of sentient creatures (which corals are not just fwiw for anyone reading this

Would LOVE to know how you’ve proven as a scientific fact that fish are sentient! Or that corals are not! 

[Tired]

"Sentient" is an extremely broad word that, by some definitions, includes plants. It just means "aware". A decent bit of sci-fi seems to think that it's what you call a person, but, no- a creature that's intelligent enough to be a person is "sapient".

 

And the problem here isn't what space is appropriate for a 1" damsel. The problem here is that the damselfish is not going to stay 1" long, unless something is badly wronm.

[wuzzo]

wow, what a read, will follow lol