Cyano in new tank

[BioReefed]

I started my new Biocube 16 gallon tank a month and a half ago. I cycled it with live bacteria, ammonia, live rock and live sand. after 2 weeks or so I tested my tank and it seemed it was already cycled, all the parameters looked great and my tank was ready. I added my cleaning crew first, then a couple of clown fish. The tank Still was looking great after each test. Two weeks after it was cycled I added Purigen and Chemi-pure for filtration, then I added my first set of corals, three Ricordea mushrooms, one gorgonian, and a leather coral. They seemed to be doing good and I kept testing the water. But something I didn't know until now was that the Nitrates and Phosphates shouldn't be at zero every time.

This is when I started to see the problems. My tank started to grow some dinos 😑. It wasn't that bad at first, but I can see it is growing more and more. So I decided to investigate to see if I can do something quick before it gets out of hand, and this is where I'm a little confused, since I see different comments about this topic.

I'm not sure if the cause was because the Purigen and Chemi-pure are keeping my N and P constantly at zero.

I learned that a way to eliminate this problem was to dose the tank with NeoNitro and Neo Phos to keep levels in a normal parameter for my tank and corals to survive (by the way, my corals are looking pale and my leather won't open). But I don't want to dose yet until I figure out if I have to remove the Purigen and Chemi-pure first before dosing.

What should I do? any advice will be appreciate it.

[Tired]

Yes, you do need to remove the nutrient-erasing filter media before dosing nutrients, if you want it to work.

 

Chemical filter medias that remove nitrates and phosphates are only useful in tanks that have too much nitrate and/or phosphate. Otherwise, this can happen. Remove those, and stop doing water changes until your nutrients are at least approaching too-high. The dinos should sort themselves out.

[NanoGrant]

Agree with @Tired  

 

Remove the chemi-pure and purigen to allow nitrate and phosphate to increase on their own without having to turn to dosing. 
 

I’d also suggest working on the micro fauna in the tank. Add copepods, mysis shrimp and phytoplankton to increase your biodiversity and create a healthy system that will suppress dinos. 

[MrP]

.

[BioReefed]

Thank you, this is really helpful. I will remove those today and will try to remove dinos as much as I can. I also lost my Royal Gramma yesterday and my two clowns are coverd in a white fuzzy thing. Do you think this is due to the water quality and dinos? I wasn't expecting to go over this problems this early. My tank its only a month and a half old. Really frustrated.

 

[Tired]

That sounds like a bacterial infection, which is not caused by low nutrients and dinos. Go post in the disease forum, with pictures of the fish taken under white lights, for best advice. 

[mcarroll]

14 hours ago, BioReefed said:

I also lost my Royal Gramma yesterday and my two clowns are coverd in a white fuzzy thing. Do you think this is due to the water quality and dinos

In a round about way, yes.  But probably not cause/effect style, where your dino's caused sickness in your fish.  

 

Rather, both the dino's and fish disease have some shared roots in the basic instability of the tank...which is inherent to its newness and the startup method chosen.

 

Pest algae and fish disease are all opportunists that depend on the ecosystem they're invading being "disturbed" in some way.  

 

A new fish tank is all manner of disturbed – practically sterile compared to a functional reef.  

 

Opportunists are adapted to exploit these disturbed places.

 

To paint with a broad brush, your experience so far (which is fairly common, don't feel like you're alone!) illustrates why live rock starts are better than dead rock starts.  

 

Same reason we don't use UGF's or other inert bio-media like we used to.  

 

Remember, we've had Siporax, BioBeads, Matrix and many other porous alternatives to rocks and gravel....porosity wasn't what we were missing.  

 

Live Rock isn't bio-media – that's merely one function it provides, almost coincidentally to the stuff we're most interested in.  (The stuff that makes a reef a reef.)  👍

 

14 hours ago, BioReefed said:

I wasn't expecting to go over this problems this early. My tank its only a month and a half old. Really frustrated.

 

Well.   All the problems typically DO happen at the beginning....though that doesn't mean you go around expecting them to happen.  🤷‍♂️

 

You're basically into The Uglies right now...and you'll have to muscle your way out like everyone else does, more or less.

 

The good part is that it seems like you caught on to the situation and reacted quickly.  Dino's can self-resolve in as little as 24 hours if you're quick with the PO4 corrections, and other changes folks have recommended.  (Target 0.10 ppm PO4....keep it there just like you would for alkalinity dosing.)

 

If they progress past this point (ie they're still around 24 hours after you correct everything) then you're more likely looking at a turnaround in the scope of "weeks".  Still with an excellent prognosis since it sounds like you caught it before the tank was taken over.

 

So don't be too frustrated – try to consider it part of the adventure!   You just got a little more adventure than you bargained for! 😉 

[BioReefed]

Thank you @mcarroll I think I caught the problem before it got worse. I added some microbacter7 and noticed a reduction on the dinos, they go away at night but they  comeback when the lights are on. So I added another dose of microbacter 7 and blacked out my tank for a whole day. I have not added any nitrates nor phosphates yet since the microbacter reduces them. I will check my tank today  and see if the dinos are gone, test the parameters and depending on that I will add the NeoPhos and NeoNitro.

I also order a Biocube mini uv sterilizer. I heard they help with dinos and also for whatever bacteria my fish were having.

Since I started my tank back in Dec 10th , I only performed one water change right when the tank was a month old, I thought it was a mistake because even the water parameters were good, I did it anyways, I kept hearing from different sources that I had to do it. Someone at my LFS told me I shouldn't have done it. I noticed after that water change my tank started to get that brown algae again, like it started to cycle again. So I have not change any water since, and I was wondering if I need to do one now at this point, or just keep waiting. 

 

[mcarroll]

Hopefully things will still go your way, but bacterial dosing and blackouts aren't really recommended.  

 

Dino's have a tendency to eat bacteria when they're blooming, so it's not really what we want to encourage....plus there's probably no shortage of bacteria in your tank in the first place.

 

Blackouts are unhelpful in most cases because they hurt/slow down most of the things you'd like to have growing in place of the dino's.

 

Most importantly, dino's aren't phased much by blackouts.  In fact, a bloom can come back worse after a blackout.

 

For one thing dino's are usually in a heterotrophic phase when they are blooming – almost non-photosynthetic since conditions aren't making photosynthesis safe.  

 

(The reason you need to fix nutrients first.)  

 

But mainly, dino's only group into snotty masses (ie what we see visually as "dino's") for protection from light and other things.  So your dino's are still there when the lights are out – they just aren't grouping together so you can see them with your naked eye.  Instead they're swimming/creeping around independently.

 

Correcting nutrient levels is always the #1 main priority. (But definitely not the only one.  ⬅The only dino resource I'd recommend.)

 

Virtually all other filtration or additives get put on pause or eliminated completely while you rectify the tank's situation....usually even water changes.  Protein skimming is the only "filter" that goes on uninterrupted.

 

[BioReefed]

I added the Neonitro and NeoPhos for about three days, I didn't see any change until yesterday. I tested the water and Nitrates are at around 10 ppm 😬 even though I was dosing to keep it at 3 ppm. Phosphates went up too, they are at around 0.25. I removed as much dino as I could since it is mostly in the sand. I checked today and they are coming back again 🙄, Nitrates are still at 10 ppm and Phospates 0.25. I noticed my Ricordeas are loving the high nitrates, and also the gorgonian.

I'm really hoping the dinos will start to disappear, but it actually looks like they are coming back. Late in the day a lot of bubbles start to showing in the sand and they go everywhere.

My tank will be 2 months old in a few days, and I have only change the water once a month ago. Should I wait longer until the parameters settle? or do you think it is time to do a water change now that the nitrates and phosphates are up.

 

[Tired]

You should only do a water change if nutrients are too high, trace elements need to be replaced, or something else (gunk, toxins, etc) needs to be removed. In a tank with dinos, you want high nutrients. So, no, no water change needed, you'll only remove those nutrients that you just got up. 10ppm nitrates is fine for a lot of tanks. 

[BioReefed]

Thank you @Tired  I will keep an eye on the parameters hopefully the nitrates and phosphates won't keep rising, and crossing my fingers that dino goes away soon now that the nitrates and phosphates are not at zero.

 

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, BioReefed said:

I added the Neonitro and NeoPhos for about three days, I didn't see any change until yesterday. I tested the water and Nitrates are at around 10 ppm 😬 even though I was dosing to keep it at 3 ppm. Phosphates went up too, they are at around 0.25.

That's perfect!

 

No water changes UNLESS you dose the water change water with N and P so it matches the levels in the tank.  

 

The water change should NOT affect nutrient levels in the tank.

 

2 hours ago, BioReefed said:

I'm really hoping the dinos will start to disappear, but it actually looks like they are coming back. Late in the day a lot of bubbles start to showing in the sand and they go everywhere.

They are probably already starting to disappear, but it can be a long process if you don't keep helping it along.  Siphoning is one good thing, but can be a lot of work.  Using a UV and/or micron filter is also very helpful for your situation.   UV kills swimming dino cells...micron filters them out of the display mechanically.  They make a good combination!

 

If they keep coming back in spite of the corrected nutrient levels, consider adding one or both.  (Don't wait too long to decide.)  👍

 

 

[BioReefed]

At first it seemed like they were going away. Today after the first day of having the uv on, they came back and a lot faster. Those dinos are really annoying, not sure what to do now. N and P are stable at 10 and 0.2, the UV is on, and I added another dose of microbacter7 just in case. I will check tomorrow to see if day 2 with the uv did something. Luckily they are mostly in the sand, but they are covering my GSP rock that's on the sand too.

[mcarroll]

Usually identifying which type of dino you have is the next part of the process after fixing your tank problems.  If you have Amphdinium, they tend not to swim so they are somewhat "immune" to water filters (eg UV and micron).

 

If you don't have a microscope, now might be the time to get one.   Literally any scope will work.  I started with an $11 toy scope (a bit more expensive these days)....totally functional, but not very nice because it's wobbly plastic.   Fine if this will be your only real use for it.  If you think you'll use it a lot, then spend at least $50-100 for a real lab scope made out of metal....a fine focus knob would be a nice basic feature to have.

[BioReefed]

Thanks again @mcarroll I was checking in the app Offerup and I saw one for $25 and its a metal one. I will get that and try to find out what kind of dinos I have. I'm not adding anything else to my tank for now, all my fish died from brooklynella, hopefully the uv helps treating the water for that too. My ricordias almost double their size just in two days of having some nitrates and phosphates, also my gorgonian is looking better. I'm trying to keep the dinos off my GSP rock. At this point I will identify the type of dino in my tank and hopefully find a solution to get rid of those.

[BioReefed]

Well, what I saw in the microscope does not match what I've seen in pictures, I don't think my tank has dinoflagellates. Can someone help me identify what this is? I'm assuming it is cyanobacteria.

 

[mcarroll]

Post a pic through your microscope if you can.

 

But if you have ruled out dino's then you probable have some things that are VERY geometrically shapes (diatoms) and some cyano, which may look red and stringy.  All good....just make sure you're keeping the tank in balance and they should pass.

[PJPS]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:42 PM, mcarroll said:

Hopefully things will still go your way, but bacterial dosing and blackouts aren't really recommended.  

 

Dino's have a tendency to eat bacteria when they're blooming, so it's not really what we want to encourage....plus there's probably no shortage of bacteria in your tank in the first place.

 

Blackouts are unhelpful in most cases because they hurt/slow down most of the things you'd like to have growing in place of the dino's.

 

Most importantly, dino's aren't phased much by blackouts.  In fact, a bloom can come back worse after a blackout.

 

For one thing dino's are usually in a heterotrophic phase when they are blooming – almost non-photosynthetic since conditions aren't making photosynthesis safe.  

 

(The reason you need to fix nutrients first.)  

 

But mainly, dino's only group into snotty masses (ie what we see visually as "dino's") for protection from light and other things.  So your dino's are still there when the lights are out – they just aren't grouping together so you can see them with your naked eye.  Instead they're swimming/creeping around independently.

 

Correcting nutrient levels is always the #1 main priority. (But definitely not the only one.  ⬅The only dino resource I'd recommend.)

 

Virtually all other filtration or additives get put on pause or eliminated completely while you rectify the tank's situation....usually even water changes.  Protein skimming is the only "filter" that goes on uninterrupted.

 

I’ve rarely seen this advice promoted, but if followed to the letter, will lead you out of that most depressing of battles.  100/100, quality info.

[PJPS]

7 hours ago, BioReefed said:

Well, what I saw in the microscope does not match what I've seen in pictures, I don't think my tank has dinoflagellates. Can someone help me identify what this is? I'm assuming it is cyanobacteria.

 

Without a scope photo , I’d guess diatoms and cyano.  Both easy rides compared to dinos.  Keep the tank off zero, add some snails as GHA comes in over thee next weeks.  Pods will eat the diatoms if you’re at your wits end. The cyano will pass, just keep siphoning it out if it bugs you.  No nuking from space until it’s way worse.  Nuking from space usually invites other issues, so holster the chemiclean for now.

 

Remember, herbivores for algae, no magic in a bottle, no nutrient based control.  So in a nano, that’s more snails than you’d think, and maybe an urchin as the tank matures.  Manually remove anything longer than film with a toothbrush, or preferably pick it out bit by bit but this gets tedious quickly.

[Koleswrath]

I have some identical looking strands in my two month setup. Here’s a scope pic at 400x.

 

[PJPS]

It's been a while so I'll lok it up, but the round gold ones look like LCA.  Their movement helps too.  Join Mack's dino group on facebook, download the latest dealing with dinos pdf from the files section, Identify the strain, then we can help you through it.  That groups knowledge base has good info, but there's too many newbie voices clamouring to be massively usefull.  But that PDF is The Joy of Cooking for dinos in the right hands.

 

I can't attach a PDFor I'd just put it here.  You're after Dealing With Dinos Rev G Feb 2022

[BioReefed]

9 hours ago, PJPS said:

Without a scope photo , I’d guess diatoms and cyano.  Both easy rides compared to dinos.  Keep the tank off zero, add some snails as GHA comes in over thee next weeks.  Pods will eat the diatoms if you’re at your wits end. The cyano will pass, just keep siphoning it out if it bugs you.  No nuking from space until it’s way worse.  Nuking from space usually invites other issues, so holster the chemiclean for now.

 

Remember, herbivores for algae, no magic in a bottle, no nutrient based control.  So in a nano, that’s more snails than you’d think, and maybe an urchin as the tank matures.  Manually remove anything longer than film with a toothbrush, or preferably pick it out bit by bit but this gets tedious quickly.

Can't take a picture of that, that microscope was not the best one. Even though the algae looks red by the naked eye in the microscope looks green, and looks like needles kind of like hay or straw. I didn't see any little individual circles or cells like typicall dino. So that makes me assume it is cyano. But I'm not sure if cyano goes away at night and comes back when the lights are on, that's what happens to mine.

so if it happens to be cyano, is it time for a water change? My tank is exactly two months today and I only did one small water change a month ago.

I heard if it is dino then no water change, but with cyano you should do a water change and syphon the sand. Not sure what to do

[BioReefed]

10 hours ago, PJPS said:

Without a scope photo , I’d guess diatoms and cyano.  Both easy rides compared to dinos.  Keep the tank off zero, add some snails as GHA comes in over thee next weeks.  Pods will eat the diatoms if you’re at your wits end. The cyano will pass, just keep siphoning it out if it bugs you.  No nuking from space until it’s way worse.  Nuking from space usually invites other issues, so holster the chemiclean for now.

 

Remember, herbivores for algae, no magic in a bottle, no nutrient based control.  So in a nano, that’s more snails than you’d think, and maybe an urchin as the tank matures.  Manually remove anything longer than film with a toothbrush, or preferably pick it out bit by bit but this gets tedious quickly.

So, no water change yet? my tank is 2 moths old and I only did one water change a month ago. Like I said to Mcaroll I'm not sure it is dino, according to what I saw, but again, that microscope was not the best. It looks like cyano and diatoms. And I know if it is dino I need to saty away from water changes. But how about with cyano, maybe that's why I have it? maybe my tank needs to be clean?

[brandon429]

Since this invasion is being coached to be handled hands off vs hands on, within a month there's a 90% chance your tank will be nearly taken over

 

I hope the 10% likelihood happens so you can proceed reefing vs altering water parameters around invasion control, this is very hard on corals. If the hands off mode works, you're saving intervention work by being able to just do things through the water

 

However, if you notice in the coming days a worsening, a pending loss,  I can fix that nano with a rip clean and we can engineer a hands on fix to compare results with these so far. Don't lose your tank experimenting with hands off methods, just try it until you can see it's time to not try it and use the method that comes with fifty pages of after pics that are clean. 

 

Right when you see losses happening, invasion taking ground and are considering a start over, lemme remotely work it right then as last chance. Up until then, continue with altering nitrate and phosphate + status update pics/ the system might get lucky and self correct

 

Your senses will tell you when that's failing

 

Using dry rock to start reefs comes at a great cost to the keeper...tank fixers like to vy for best methods among that group of reefers. There's big $ in honing skills that prevent new cyclers from losing their investments

 

This is the exact method we'll use, tracked after completion now in seven reefs:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/algae-identification.707457/

 

 

We can do your job planning here on nano-reef.com so I can use the example work in my cycle control thread here. You can see in the after pics and recency of each job what your likely outcome is