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Recent issues with constantly dirty sand bed - what type of pest and requesting help with curbing it's growth please!


Butchy21

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46 minutes ago, seabass said:

I just looked it up and edited my post.  Thanks for getting back to me!

If you want to raise nitrates without raising alk, it'd probably better to dose ammonia since that wouldn't effect the net change of alk. but i can't find anyone doing that when you could just feed more.

 

50 ppm of nitrate consumed gives 2.3 dKH of alk.

 

the effect is minimal, but if you have little to no alk consumption, it'll climb.

 

edit: found the equations:

4NO3- + 5/6 C6H12O6 (glucose) + 4H2O + 2 N2 + 7H2O + 4HCO3- + CO2

uptake by macroalgae:
122 CO2 + 122 H2O + 16 NO3- -->C106H260O106N16 + 138 O2 + 16 HCO3-

conversion to ammonia:
NO3- + H+ + H2O --> NH3 + 2O2

 

 

I will admit I don't quite understand this, but it was the next post following RHF's initial reply.

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I see the point about the initial depletion, which is then balanced out by the later increase.  Makes sense.  I've seen some people try to dose ammonia.  I think partially because it might be more bio-available in that form (and maybe also to prevent an alkalinity gain).  With stony corals, I'm a bit surprised that it's an issue, but I suppose it depends on how much nitrate you dose and how much alk is being consumed.  In small amounts (and keeping ammonia levels within a safe range), dosing ammonia might not be as bad as it sounds.

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On 2/3/2023 at 11:51 AM, TheKleinReef said:

If you want to raise nitrates without raising alk, it'd probably better to dose ammonia since that wouldn't effect the net change of alk. but i can't find anyone doing that when you could just feed more.

If your tank is underfed, I agree.  However, overfeeding to adds nutrients add organics and phosphate.  Excess organics can cause other issues like cyano.

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2 minutes ago, seabass said:

it depends on how much nitrate you dose and how much alk is consumed. 

If you have a steady amount of alk depletion, this is a non issue. But say there is an issue where normal alk consumption stopped, this gradual increase can be a problem.

This is what happened in my tank. TM Pro stressed everything out, alk consumption stopped, i was still dosing nitrates and alk kept climbing.

2 minutes ago, seabass said:

If your tank is underfed, I agree.  However, overfeeding to add nutrients add organics and phosphate.  Excess organics can cause other issues like cyano.

yeah that's the other side of the coin.

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Ah interesting - with all of the corals (good mix of LPS / SPS) showing good growth, I do have a good alkalinity usage.  However, I'd rather not dose anything to start.

 

I'll take most of the filtration off-line, maybe feed slightly higher and keep checking nitrate to see if it can stabilize above zero.  If there is no improvement in the next couple weeks I can reach out and do some additional research on dosing to stabilize nitrate/phosphate ratios.

 

 

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I have straight dosed nitrate on several tanks.. while it can raise alk... it isn't a 'spike' or such.. I didn't find it to be a problem. Especially if you do water changes because even though you dose the water change water.. it still would bring it down more then up as long as your salt isn't high to begin with. I never ended up with super high alk or anything before the problem corrected. On one tank I had to dose 2 part anyways so I just set the dosers to dose let and the nitrate dosing made up for the lower dose. 

 

It is basically a slowww increase. 

 

I do think you put basically almost every form of filtration on your tank which is a mistake commonly made.

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50 ppm of nitrate consumed gives 2.3 dKH of alk
 

which isn’t a lot no, but when consumption of alk is 0, the alk will climb. I just watched it happen with dosing phyto. Steady 0.1dkh increase every 6 hours as the nitrate was consumed. 

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31 minutes ago, brandon429 said:

I somehow missed that along the way about nitrate additions raising alk, nice reading pointed out. I would have lost money on that bet. 

A lot of the time if is hidden in the normal alk consumption, even Randy Holmes Farley said the nitrate additive producers should have a warning on the bottles. 

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1 hour ago, TheKleinReef said:

 

 

50 ppm of nitrate consumed gives 2.3 dKH of alk
 

which isn’t a lot no, but when consumption of alk is 0, the alk will climb. I just watched it happen with dosing phyto. Steady 0.1dkh increase every 6 hours as the nitrate was consumed. 

 

I only really dose enough to keep nitrate detectable but I think all my tanks have had alk consumption I suppose, from coralline algae if nothing else. 

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17 hours ago, Butchy21 said:

Ran first measurements last night - Phosphate 0.03, Nitrate = 0

In a normal, healthy tank that would be a nice set of readings.

 

In a new tank, however, you want BOTH numbers higher than that.  

 

Until your dino's and cyano clear up I'd consider keeping PO4 ≥ 0.10 ppm and NO3 ≥ 5 ppm.  

 

Remove filter media, stop doing water changes, etc to encourage this.   After all that, if levels are still down in the dirt, you can also dose N and P directly in liquid form.  Seachem Flourish Phosphate and Nitrate or Brightwell NeoPhos and NeoNitro seem to be the most popular...but any similar products will work.

 

Do not slouch on handling this since you already have a presence of dino's and a weird cyano.   The algae (dino's especially) can get way worse if you let it.

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On 2/4/2023 at 5:27 AM, mcarroll said:

In a normal, healthy tank that would be a nice set of readings.

 

In a new tank, however, you want BOTH numbers higher than that.  

 

Until your dino's and cyano clear up I'd consider keeping PO4 ≥ 0.10 ppm and NO3 ≥ 5 ppm.  

 

Remove filter media, stop doing water changes, etc to encourage this.   After all that, if levels are still down in the dirt, you can also dose N and P directly in liquid form.  Seachem Flourish Phosphate and Nitrate or Brightwell NeoPhos and NeoNitro seem to be the most popular...but any similar products will work.

 

Do not slouch on handling this since you already have a presence of dino's and a weird cyano.   The algae (dino's especially) can get way worse if you let it.

I appreciate the targeted numbers especially - it's always difficult to have discussions and several people can suggest to raise nitrates / phosphates but what numbers are we really trying to target!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Current status of battling the Cyano / Dinos - most of my equipment has been turned down or off for >3 weeks, slightly heavier feeding for my fish and I have not performed a water change since 1/29 (25% volume). 

 

Have not seen any detectable Nitrate yet for any measurements over 3 weeks - which is frustrating because due to not performing any water changes in 3-4 weeks, the tank is definitely getting a bunch of hair algae that is irritating some of the corals.   In addition, the large mats of cyano remain on the sand bed so it looks like any available Nitrates are spurring GHA growth and not getting any closer to balancing NO3/PO4.

 

Nitrate and phosphate measurements:

 2/2: Nitrate 0, Phosphate 0.03

2/6: Nitrate 0, Phosphate 0.03

2/12: Nitrate 0, Phosphate 0.03

2/19: Nitrate 0, Phosphate 0.03

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2 hours ago, Butchy21 said:

the tank is definitely getting a bunch of hair algae that is irritating some of the corals.

Hopefully it hasn't gotten out of hand – you should be pulling out by hand any that gets too long/long enough for your fingertips to grab.

 

This probably also indicates you have room for more CUC.  

 

Remember they are slow AND tiny and they have to cover every cm² of bare, well-lit rock if it's gonna stay algae free.  

 

At the same time, the existing algae are sending out zillions of spores that circulate and land on the rock, sprouting quickly and easily under such ideal conditions.

 

 

2 hours ago, Butchy21 said:

In addition, the large mats of cyano remain on the sand bed so it looks like any available Nitrates are spurring GHA growth and not getting any closer to balancing NO3/PO4.

Corals may not be hurting too much because of this because there are many forms of N available to them other than NO3.  

 

But the algae's rapid spread and growth ARE keeping available levels of N really low for everything else you want to be growing.

 

So keep on top of algae removal so the effect doesn't become more intense.  And add more CUC so you aren't doing most of the work anymore.  🙂 👍

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3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Hopefully it hasn't gotten out of hand – you should be pulling out by hand any that gets too long/long enough for your fingertips to grab.

 

This probably also indicates you have room for more CUC.  

 

Remember they are slow AND tiny and they have to cover every cm² of bare, well-lit rock if it's gonna stay algae free.  

 

At the same time, the existing algae are sending out zillions of spores that circulate and land on the rock, sprouting quickly and easily under such ideal conditions.

 

 

Corals may not be hurting too much because of this because there are many forms of N available to them other than NO3.  

 

But the algae's rapid spread and growth ARE keeping available levels of N really low for everything else you want to be growing.

 

So keep on top of algae removal so the effect doesn't become more intense.  And add more CUC so you aren't doing most of the work anymore.  🙂 👍

Oh I will definitely be persistent - planning to scoop up all of the cyano from the sandbed and rip out any GHA later tonight.

 

I can definitely grab some more snails the next time I hit up the local reef shop, although I'm surprised because I thought I had a pretty rampant CUC currently.  I suppose trying to get the nitrate levels up will test their capacity...

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

So it took 6 full weeks of pulling most filtration offline with minimal water changes to get detectable nitrates.  Cyano seems to have fully dissipated - now there is some Dinos but the tank seems to be improving. 

Doing 5 gallon water changes every 3 weeks so I can clean off the rocks and vacuum sandbed. 

Reading at 6 weeks: 

PO4 = 0.02

Nitrate = 0.1

 

 

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With dinos still in your tank, your nutrient levels are still quite low.  Consider dosing nutrients to get them up as suggested above.  Brightwell's NeoNitro and NeoPhos are popular choices.

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I agree....it's good that you took some of the pressure off your the tank's nutrient supply, but you still want your target levels higher than this.  Shoot for....

 

≥ 0.10 ppm PO4

≥ 5 ppm NO3

 

Like seabass said, dosing some liquid nutrients is generally the quickest/best way to make the correction.  Keep doing this as-needed – but sooner or later it shouldn't be needed anymore.  

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/22/2023 at 6:15 PM, mcarroll said:

I agree....it's good that you took some of the pressure off your the tank's nutrient supply, but you still want your target levels higher than this.  Shoot for....

 

≥ 0.10 ppm PO4

≥ 5 ppm NO3

 

Like seabass said, dosing some liquid nutrients is generally the quickest/best way to make the correction.  Keep doing this as-needed – but sooner or later it shouldn't be needed anymore.  

Ordered some Neophos/NeoNitro as suggested since my phosphate is now even dropping (It went from 0.03 to 0.01) and nitrate is back to 0.

 

Any recommendations on dosing nitrates/phosphates?  I imagine start low - test after 24hr, dose again, test after 24hr - then ramp up volumes if needed?  Just worried to overdose and hurt my SPS corals!

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The only damage you can do is from keeping things too low or at "zero".  There don't appear to be any dangerous upper limits as long as you're keeping things (mostly n+p) in balance.  Bad things CAN happen when N and P get out of balance.  (So don't cause the tank to be elevated in just one nutrient.  Especially don't dose nitrates when phosphates are zero.)

 

The bottom line is that you aren't going to dose enough to cause a problem, not even if you calculate something wrong.

 

≥0.10 ppm PO4 and ≥ 5ppm NO3 seems to be enough to satisfy demand, and usually enough to create a comfortably-small excess to help things stabilize.  In most cases you'd want to start with those numbers and go from there.

 

If there is significant pent-up demand (eg during a large pest algae bloom or after long periods at 0.00 ppm), it's possible for levels to return to zero quickly, so consider re-testing .5-1 hour after you dose.  Dose a second time if anything is near-zero again.

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9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

The only damage you can do is from keeping things too low or at "zero".  There don't appear to be any dangerous upper limits as long as you're keeping things (mostly n+p) in balance.  Bad things CAN happen when N and P get out of balance.  (So don't cause the tank to be elevated in just one nutrient.  Especially don't dose nitrates when phosphates are zero.)

 

The bottom line is that you aren't going to dose enough to cause a problem, not even if you calculate something wrong.

 

≥0.10 ppm PO4 and ≥ 5ppm NO3 seems to be enough to satisfy demand, and usually enough to create a comfortably-small excess to help things stabilize.  In most cases you'd want to start with those numbers and go from there.

 

If there is significant pent-up demand (eg during a large pest algae bloom or after long periods at 0.00 ppm), it's possible for levels to return to zero quickly, so consider re-testing .5-1 hour after you dose.  Dose a second time if anything is near-zero again.

I really appreciate all of your help getting through this !  Almost 10 years into the hobby and still learning a ton...

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