High PO4 (.4 ppm) in fresh salt water?

[nocd]

Hi All,

 

This is driving me nuts.

 

My current tank, a 10g Fusion, has been up for a couple years now. Nothing too crazy, few coral and a clown. For a long time, the tank has been great. No algae issues, completely under control. The tank itself was as automated as far as I could with the space available:

 

• Auto water changes via Neptune Dos
• Auto top off
• Three chambered acrylic container, waste waster, fresh saltwater, rodi top off
• Neptune Trident
• Testing Nitrate and Phosphate ~weekly to ~monthly

 

Recently, I had a giant breakout of hair algae. I pulled the rocks, scrubbed what I could, and the tank was near spotless when I was done. I got to searching for the source of the PO4 that I assume is causing the outbreak. I tested all my water sources going into the tank:

 

• 30g Brute I keep in the garage of constantly mixing salt water - .38 ppm PO4
• I mixed a fresh bucket of saltwater separately to eliminate the Brute from the equation - .29 ppm PO4
• I tested my RO/DI - BRS 4 stage + 2 stage addon - 0 PPM

 

I currently mix Tropic Marin Classic. My undertank reservoir has algae in the fresh saltwater reserve (I noticed this the other day).

 

Is it possible this salt is reading this high accurately on a Hanna Phosphate checker? The hair algae killed coral before I got time to do a proper full scrub? What am I missing here? My Neptune is showing my currently readings:

 

ALK - 9

CA - 609 (yes this is high)

MG - 1279

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, nocd said:

My current tank, a 10g Fusion, has been up for a couple years now. [....]. The tank itself was as automated as far as I could

If you're new, and the tank is new, and automation is the double edged sword that it is, you can see the potential for something like this to crop up right?

 

1 hour ago, nocd said:

Recently, I had a giant breakout of hair algae. I pulled the rocks, scrubbed what I could, and the tank was near spotless when I was done.

This reaction to the algae bloom, while understandable, is an extreme reaction that can actually cause more problems in some circumstances.

 

1 hour ago, nocd said:

I got to searching for the source of the PO4 that I assume is causing the outbreak.

It's not PO4 that causes an algae outbreak.  It's a big change in the water quality that does it.  To wit, my system still maxes out the PO4 meter (and NO3 meter), but supports almost ZERO ALGAE GROWTH.

 

1 hour ago, nocd said:

The hair algae killed coral before I got time to do a proper full scrub? What am I missing here? My Neptune is showing my currently readings:

 

ALK - 9

CA - 609 (yes this is high)

MG - 1279

It sounds like things had a lot of time to get out of control.  Is this tank normally supervised, or is it (e.g.) and office tank that people aren't around a lot?

 

1 hour ago, nocd said:

30g Brute I keep in the garage of constantly mixing salt water - .38 ppm PO4

If you constantly stir your saltwater, you're wasting energy and causing unwanted precipitation of alkalinity out of solution.  Once the salt is dissolved, it is dissolved – you can safely stop mixing then.  

 

Heating your saltwater can cause the same precipitation effect.  Unless you are doing VERY LARGE water changes on VERY SENSITIVE species or your saltwater in the garage is REALLY REALLY COLD, you don't need to heat it.  So don't!  🙂 👍

 

1 hour ago, nocd said:

• I mixed a fresh bucket of saltwater separately to eliminate the Brute from the equation - .29 ppm PO4
• I tested my RO/DI - BRS 4 stage + 2 stage addon - 0 PPM

As long as you trust your testing, it sounds like it's time to bring in the folks from Tropic Marin and ask them if this makes any sense.   Manufacturing problems DO happen.

[Lou Ekus]

Hi @nocd, First, as always, I'm sorry you are dealing with this issue. I will try to help you figure out what is going on. The first thing to do would be to check your PO4 testing values. I am a big fan of the Hanna checkers, as they get so many people testing their tanks so much more than they would have otherwise. That being said, I have seen many times when they have been giving results that turned out to be different than the actual values, due to one factor or another. So the first thing would be to get a good, high quality PO4 reagent test kit, and verify those results you are seeing. 

If it turns out that the values are accurate, then cleaning your rock like that can only contribute to the issue. Although I think that is somewhat unlikely if the Hanna checker is giving you a PO4 concentration of 0.29 ppm in a freshly mixed batch of TM Pro-Reef salt done in clean RO/DI water. I will help you figure out a course of action, one way or the other. You can email me at office@tropicmarin-usa.com with results and I will help you there. I don't always see follow up posts on this site. So email is most effective. Good luck and let me know how you make out.

[nocd]

Quote

If you're new, and the tank is new, and automation is the double edged sword that it is, you can see the potential for something like this to crop up right?

I've been keeping tanks for ~7 years now. Someone is near the tank often. The build up was gradual, so I think I didn't notice it as abruptly as I would have otherwise.

 

Quote

This reaction to the algae bloom, while understandable, is an extreme reaction that can actually cause more problems in some circumstances.

I've always seen scrubbing rock (avoiding coral) as a more extreme solution to algae issues. What is the alternative?

 

Quote

It's not PO4 that causes an algae outbreak.  It's a big change in the water quality that does it.  To wit, my system still maxes out the PO4 meter (and NO3 meter), but supports almost ZERO ALGAE GROWTH.

My system doesn't currently have enough in it to consume that level of PO4, unfortunately. On top of that, my readings were near zero, which meant the algae was consuming it. Nothing changed in my water methods, I test TDS every time I pull RO/DI and would replace filters as soon as it registered a 1. The only thing I can think of is this bucket of salt mix is the culprit, but I wouldn't point fingers without knowing for sure.

 

Quote

If you constantly stir your saltwater, you're wasting energy and causing unwanted precipitation of alkalinity out of solution.  Once the salt is dissolved, it is dissolved – you can safely stop mixing then.  

 

Heating your saltwater can cause the same precipitation effect.  Unless you are doing VERY LARGE water changes on VERY SENSITIVE species or your saltwater in the garage is REALLY REALLY COLD, you don't need to heat it.  So don't!  🙂 👍

Should I just mix overnight in the Brute can then kill the pumps? I'm also running a heater in the trash can to keep it close to temp. I should be avoiding that as well?

 

Quote

As long as you trust your testing, it sounds like it's time to bring in the folks from Tropic Marin and ask them if this makes any sense.   Manufacturing problems DO happen.

Looks like TM replied, so I'll talk further with them.  Appreciate the responses.

[nocd]

On 10/6/2022 at 6:25 AM, Lou Ekus said:

Hi @nocd, First, as always, I'm sorry you are dealing with this issue. I will try to help you figure out what is going on. The first thing to do would be to check your PO4 testing values. I am a big fan of the Hanna checkers, as they get so many people testing their tanks so much more than they would have otherwise. That being said, I have seen many times when they have been giving results that turned out to be different than the actual values, due to one factor or another. So the first thing would be to get a good, high quality PO4 reagent test kit, and verify those results you are seeing. 

If it turns out that the values are accurate, then cleaning your rock like that can only contribute to the issue. Although I think that is somewhat unlikely if the Hanna checker is giving you a PO4 concentration of 0.29 ppm in a freshly mixed batch of TM Pro-Reef salt done in clean RO/DI water. I will help you figure out a course of action, one way or the other. You can email me at office@tropicmarin-usa.com with results and I will help you there. I don't always see follow up posts on this site. So email is most effective. Good luck and let me know how you make out.

Thanks for the reply, I'll shoot you an email. For the benefit of others, if you see this, can you recommend a 2nd test kit to check against the Hanna checker?

[mcarroll]

On 10/8/2022 at 12:07 PM, nocd said:

I've been keeping tanks for ~7 years now. Someone is near the tank often. The build up was gradual, so I think I didn't notice it as abruptly as I would have otherwise.

Your experience is definitely a benefit then!  Automation is still always a double-edged sword.  "Wield it carefully!"  LOL

 

 

On 10/8/2022 at 12:07 PM, nocd said:

I've always seen scrubbing rock (avoiding coral) as a more extreme solution to algae issues. What is the alternative?

After it's outgrown the snails' ability to eat it, hand picking it is the answer.  (Then add more snails so you don't have to KEEP hand picking it.)

 

I've posted this vid probably more than the author has.  😂 Note his technique for removing algae AND his advice on snails.  (The rest isn't relevant to your situation.)

 

On 10/8/2022 at 12:07 PM, nocd said:

My system doesn't currently have enough in it to consume that level of PO4, unfortunately. On top of that, my readings were near zero, which meant the algae was consuming it.

That wasn't my point.  My point was just that the level of PO4 wasn't the cause.  (Algae will grow just fine in HIGH po4 and ZERO po4 conditions, in other words.)  It was the change in PO4 from whatever the levels were to current levels.  

 

Basically, a round about way of lending support to your idea that PO4 was coming into your system from a new, unexpected place.

 

On 10/8/2022 at 12:07 PM, nocd said:

Should I just mix overnight in the Brute can then kill the pumps? I'm also running a heater in the trash can to keep it close to temp. I should be avoiding that as well?

Yes, mix just as much as needed (until clear), and heat only as-needed (or not at all).  

 

I actually mix by hand – with a 3' HDPE paddle, but even your hand works 10x better than any pumps setup – so there's no danger of over-mixing....I run out of elbow grease well before any danger!! 😉  I store my water in the basement, so it gets pretty cool, but never cold.  I do not heat my saltwater.

 

If your saltwater is REALLY COLD from (eg) being in the garage in the winter, then consider heating just the water needed for a water change, just before the water change.  Even better, if possible, let the water change water sit inside the house by the tank overnight so it just absorbs heat from the house air.  Easy!