Quarantining roughhead blennies and eliminating possibility of Ich. Wild idea: copper straws?

[Tired]

I want to get some roughhead blennies from KP Aquatics as soon as they have any. Think barnacle blenny, but even smaller. Lil critters that hide in tubes, bopping out to grab food. 

 

I want to not get Ich from KP Aquatics. Or any other disease, but I think ich is the big concern, since it could sneak past an observational-only QT. Really is a shame we have no viable way to scan all the QT tank water and check for the presence of pathogens. 

 

When I tried doing a hyposalinity treatment on my previous roughhead blenny, she died. I don't know if I did something wrong, or if roughhead blennies just do badly with hypo. I'm also wary of using any sort of medications, since these are tiny fish with very little information about them. Additionally, they may not take frozen foods, which would mean I'd need to feed live BBS. Live BBS will be killed by, I'd imagine, just about any medication I might want to use in the tank. 

 

And there's another possible concern. I've read people saying that, if a fish with Ich is hiding in a small space, Ich may encyst onto the insides of that hiding place. If it does, when it hatches/emerges/explodes, all the new little ich might get to the fish so quickly that the medication in the water can't kill them off. Now, I am not going to QT roughhead blennies without hiding places, so I need to figure out a solution to that. 

 

Copper kills bacteria, viruses, and parasites. It's incredibly effective at doing so. Some pathogens die in minutes, everything that's ever been tested dies within days, and hospital wards that coat high-touch surfaces in copper can see anywhere from a 60% to an 80% decrease in hospital-acquired infections. It's incredibly effective. I have to imagine that an ich cyst that forms on copper is a doomed cyst, since it's attached TO the copper. But copper leaches into water. I assume copper straws used as hiding places would leach enough copper that it would make them not viable for this purpose. 

 

So, that leaves me two options.

One: treat with the chloroquine phosphate I have, after getting the fish onto prepared foods, and swap out the hiding places every less-than-48-hours so any cysts on those places can't hatch and immediately glom onto the fish. Requires them to start eating frozen foods, which is... hopefully doable? But they'd probably have a better immune system with a constant supply of tasty live foods. How long will BBS live in chloroquine phosphate, and will they be suffering the entire time? 

Two: tank transfer method. More stressful, possible risk of individual little ich swimmers getting transferred over in traces of water, would involve pouring the poor lil things out of their hiding places every couple of days. On the upside, no medications, and I can keep live BBS constantly in the tank. 

 

If the fish react badly to chloroquine phosphate, how fast will I be able to tell that something is wrong and that they need to be removed? 

[seabass]

I believe the tank transfer method should work.

https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/tank-transfer-method-all-versions.6800/

 

[Tired]

I just hate to put the poor things through all that fuss. It'd involve dumping them out of their hidey-straws and everything for every transfer. Might still be the least stress, since it is the quickest way to get them into the display. 

 

Can I use stainless steel straws in a QT tank? I need a bunch of easily sterilized, sinking, straw-width objects, and chopping a few metal straws into 2" lengths would probably work. I know it'll rust eventually when exposed to saltwater, but will it rust in 2 weeks or less? 

[seabass]

Titanium shouldn't rust (but I don't know how easy it would be to cut).  I'd stay away from copper as controlling the amount of copper in the water would be problematic.  Stainless steel should be alright temporarily; but as you mentioned, it will still rust.

[Pjanssen]

personally, I'd use pvc which you can easily remove for cleaning. Are you planning to use your qt as your bbs hatchery? If you keep a separate small tank for the hatchery then you won't have to worry about medication issues. Also, I didn't realize roughed blennies were big carriers of ich. KP Aquatics is a top notch company, you should reach out and ask them for advise.

[Tired]

Do they make PVC pipes where the hole inside is only a quarter-inch or so across? Roughhead blennies like tiny tubes. 

 

I'm hatching the BBS in an actual hatchery, but if I put them in the tank and they keel over dead in half an hour, that's just going to pollute the water. 

 

I don't think there's enough info out there on roughhead blennies to know if they're big carriers of anything, but I really want to avoid ich, and I'm assuming any wild-caught fish can have it. Even if it is less likely with them not having been through a wholesaler's pathogen soup. 

 

I'll send them an email, though I'm not sure if they get these fish in often enough to know much about them besides "well, it's very small". 

 

[seabass]

17 minutes ago, Tired said:

Do they make PVC pipes where the hole inside is only a quarter-inch or so across?

https://pvcpipesupplies.com/1-4-pipe-p0025wf.html?msclkid=95ff68e093f618d905ba0a3885f27634

 

However, 1/4" RO tubing is commonly available, in several colors.

[Tired]

Ah, that might be the best option. The trouble with the RO tubing is that I'm not sure whether it would sink. I don't think blennies like to hide in boats, yanno? 

[Humblefish]

@Tired I think this is (basically) what you might have in mind: https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/aem.01982-18?permanently=true&

 

I've never tried that method myself. However, I feel the entire inside of the QT would need to be covered with sheets of copper alloy. To account for the possibility of protomonts getting blown around and possibly encysting on the sides of an aquarium as well as the bottom. And what to do about pumps, air stones or a heater where tomonts could encyst? 🤔

[Pjanssen]

54 minutes ago, Tired said:

I'm hatching the BBS in an actual hatchery, but if I put them in the tank and they keel over dead in half an hour, that's just going to pollute the water. 

maybe only feed as much as the fish will eat in a few minutes.

[Pjanssen]

46 minutes ago, Tired said:

The trouble with the RO tubing is that I'm not sure whether it would sink

be easy enough to weigh down with a little piece of rock rubble at one end. a plastic drinking straw could also work-the reusable non pfop kind

[Tired]

4 hours ago, Humblefish said:

@Tired I think this is (basically) what you might have in mind: https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/aem.01982-18?permanently=true&

 

I've never tried that method myself. However, I feel the entire inside of the QT would need to be covered with sheets of copper alloy. To account for the possibility of protomonts getting blown around and possibly encysting on the sides of an aquarium as well as the bottom. And what to do about pumps, air stones or a heater where tomonts could encyst? 🤔

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of trying to eliminate the ich entirely by only having copper for it to encyst on. I was just wondering if copper straws would prevent the ich encysting on, specifically, the straws, and then getting back onto the fish without being killed by the medication. It's too bad there's no plausible way to line every surface with copper, because that would quite handily deal with the little buggers! If not for the whole "might kill your fish from copper levels" thing. 

 

I might have to use a teeny-tiny bit of my chloroquine phosphate to test how long BBS will live in it, and if they seem to be in distress when added to it. If the chloroquine phosphate will make them feel like they're on fire the entire time, I don't want to do that. Feeders or no, I don't want them suffering for hours, particularly not if I have other options. 

 

Might have to make the decision once I actually have the blennies. It's entirely possible I'll be able to get them eating frozen cyclops pretty quickly, in which case I won't have to worry about the BBS thing. 

 

Probably going to grab some PVC pipe for the hides. No need for anything porous to weigh it down, and I know it'll sink. I don't know if the reusable plastic straws will sink. Anyone happen to know of a straw brand that does? 

[Tired]

Reusable silicone straws, the soft kind, will sink. In case that's useful information for anyone. These wide straws made for boba tea would probably be good for a lot of gobies, blennies, and other little hole-sitting fish.

 

(I got the blennies.)

[mcarroll]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:14 AM, Tired said:

I think ich is the big concern, since it could sneak past an observational-only QT.

On 7/19/2022 at 11:14 AM, Tired said:

I've read people saying that, if a fish with Ich is hiding in a small space, Ich may encyst onto the insides of that hiding place.

On 7/19/2022 at 11:14 AM, Tired said:

So, that leaves me two options.

There are lots of shaky ideas and assumptions like these swirling around this subject.  

 

Ich and Velvet have sadly evolved from earnest, legitimate concerns to Boogeymen that hold onto every myth and story, every magic bullet and tank wipeout story all at once.  

 

Nowadays we collectively take a fear based approach to them FAR more often than we take a scientific one.

 

Boo!  👻

 

"Observational QT" is what "QT" really, actually means when you get beyond all that hobby rhetoric.  

 

And there is nothing that's more scientific than observation combined with iteration.  (By which I mean that the scientific method is based exactly upon observation.)

 

Just to state it for the record (as if that mattered) your observations on a well-setup QT system absolutely matter MORE than the internet ravings of any person or group of persons.  Not saying you have to discount me/us completely.....only that you err gravely to completely discount your own ability to perceive things around you in favor of the ideas quoted at the top.  YOU ARE THE MAN NOW, DOG.   QT those fish if must.  But trust your observations about what happens there, and trust your gut about what to believe needs to happen "next".   You've been around the block, so I know you already know all this – I'm only being a reminder.  😇

 

FYI, there is at least one excellent book on fish disease... "Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment" by Ed Noga.  It treats all the related topics very dispassionately as one would hope....only focused on describing treatments and their pro's and con's academically.....not being a fan of one vs another.  Especially not advocating magic bullet type solutions.   QT is discussed in earnest starting on p.71, but is mentioned many times, in context, thoughout the book.  This is the only part I'll quote here:  

Quote

The advantage of using prophylactic drug treatments during quarantine is not clear-cut because objective, scientific data demonstrating its efficacy is lacking.

 

It's expensive, but I think if you can settle for a PDF copy that Google might help you find one.   (I didn't tell you that if anyone asks!  And if the cost makes sense to you, you should probably buy a copy.  I think anyone spending significant amounts of time or money on fish ought to have a copy....and the cost of the book relative to a tank full of fish is minimal.)

[Tired]

I'll have to remember to look into that, sounds like an interesting read. And I do appreciate the reminders, it's always good to remember that this is just a disease. If a sneaky, stubborn disease. 

 

It really is a shame there's no reasonably viable way for hobbyists to test fish for disease. Imagine if we had little Star Trek tricorders that we could dip in the water and get a readout of all the microorganisms inside. Healthy fish? No need for QT. Fish carrying something? Now you know exactly what they have, and can treat appropriately, before it starts to get to them.

 

I'm definitely going to quarantine these little guys, partly to make sure they haven't brought in anything really unpleasant. If they turn out to have something that's going to start killing them, it's far easier to treat them in a QT than if I have to catch them out of a display tank. It also lets me make sure they're all getting enough to eat, which is a concern, since this is half a dozen cryptic little fish. And it lets me try to teach them that the pipette is a good thing, before I let them loose in a tank full of places to hide.

 

I've decided against the chloroquine phosphate. Partly because I don't know how they'll react, partly because it would mean I can't keep the tank stocked with BBS for them to eat. I am going to use the tank transfer method to hopefully remove any ich they have, as them living in little tubes means I can fairly easily catch them without having to chase them all over the tank. I'd like to try to remove the additional factor of ich potentially being present in the display, to pop up if something gives it an advantage. Especially since the tank transfer method is, all things considered, pretty low-stakes. 

 

(The curious wormfish I got at my LFS is definitely getting chloroquine phosphate, though, it's been in a LFS display tank. And it's way too fast to catch and transfer multiple times without a huge amount of mutual stress.)

[mcarroll]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:21 PM, Tired said:

It really is a shame there's no reasonably viable way for hobbyists to test fish for disease. Imagine if we had little Star Trek tricorders that we could dip in the water and get a readout of all the microorganisms inside. Healthy fish? No need for QT. Fish carrying something? Now you know exactly what they have, and can treat appropriately, before it starts to get to them.

When you see how quickly (a relative term, I know) they came out with those disposable antigen COVID tests, what you're describing seems very possible.   (Ok...  Doing it cheap might be impossible....LOL.  But then, "cheap" is also relative!)

 

On 10/6/2022 at 2:21 PM, Tired said:

I am going to use the tank transfer method to hopefully remove any ich they have

This is the best approach if you aren't going to use (the preferred) laissez-faire approach of just watch and wait.

 

the main gotcha is that all the handling the fish are subject to can be highly stressful, potentially creating a problem rather than allowing recovery and healing to begin.  I admit it's a judgement call – but for you, not me.  🙂   I would suggest making the decision after you get them.  For example, if they got into QT and are acting great, eating with gusto....IMO you may as well let it ride and see if anything happens to call for intervention.  As long as you can be around for observation, this should be a bankable strategy.  👍 And of course, you're already ready if the sh** does go down. 😉 

 

Tip For TTM (if you go there):  Avoid using nets; avoid removing the fish from the water when you transfer them. (Ie transfer enough water with them so they don't leave the water...such as in a cup)

 

This can virtually eliminate capture stress vs the regular method of netting between tanks.  Clear specimen containers work well, but use your imagination and be creative.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 2:21 PM, Tired said:

The curious wormfish I got at my LFS is definitely getting chloroquine phosphate, though, it's been in a LFS display tank.

Long distance transport is one of the biggest risks/stresses on fish.  These stresses are mainly what necessitates QT.  This fish is local, so at least no long distance transport!  👍

 

If your curious fish has already been living successfully for some time (MONTHS at least) in that display tank...

...and ASSUMING that tank is a nice tank with other healthy, longterm fish residents...

...then IMO the fish is past the stages of any real risk.

 

If any of that doesn't hold true (ie he's. new addition OR the tank is a problem OR etc), then IMO avoid the fish rather than attempting a QP treatment.

 

In good over all conditions, living with other healthy fish is actually a natural boost to his immune system, so this is actually relatively ideal circumstance to acquire fish from.  "Least risky" in my estimation.  Should be relatively easy to know in advance if there's going to be a problem.  👍

 

Plus, he's only got a cushy local ride home in your car vs a run-in with UPS to get from the store to you.  

 

I admit I don't know specifics about the curious wormfish, but again I'd suggest observational QT at most...at least to start with.

 

On 10/6/2022 at 2:21 PM, Tired said:

And it's way too fast to catch and transfer multiple times without a huge amount of mutual stress.

Still wouldn't med. or TTM first before observational QT...but TTM would still be preferable if you go that route anyway.  To make TTM possible for these little guys, you'd "just" have to arrange for their hiding spot to BE the transfer medium.   E.g. Move their little hiding rock with them in it into a specimen cup and move that from tank to tank with just enough water.  Might even be easier than net-catching other fish.  It would be way less stress than being net caught.

 

 

[Tired]

The blennies actually make handling and catching really easy, in this context. They stay inside their little pieces of straw when they feel uneasy, so all I have to do is pick the pieces up and move them. Which of course has the potential to transfer ich cysts on the straws, but I figure I can gently dump them out of one straw, directly on top of another, clean one that they can then hide in. 

The difficulty with letting the blennies into a display tank is that they could very well decide that a hole in a big piece of base rock is where they want to hide. I've kept these before- they WILL NOT come out of that rock hole for anything short of me picking up the rock and tapping it with something metal. Getting one out of a tank is a whole ordeal if it hides somewhere you can't readily move. They also hide up to their gills most of the time, so it's hard to watch them for disease and body condition. 

 

The wormfish is trickier to transfer, because he doesn't put himself in nice little carrying tubes. He kinda hides alongside things, so I can't pick up his house with him in it. He also has a patch of sand to hide in, as he's a burrowing fish, so I've seen a few white spots on him that I can't identify for sure. From what I've read, CP treatment should be fairly mild, and I can always take him out if he at any point stops eating with quite as much vigor. 

I think these are related to dart gobies? I don't know much about them either, except that he should stay fairly small, he easily eats frozen food, he shouldn't be aggressive to other species, and he looks really interesting. 

 

I appreciate your experience and the non-fearmongering-based input, but I think I'm going with a somewhat more proactive (or perhaps 'prophylactic' is a better word?) approach to QT and disease prevention than it seems like you prefer. I certainly see the merits of your version, with how low-stress that can be, but I think a little stress might be preferable if it can remove disease and help prevent future problems. 

Though I'm definitely staying away from the "100% bare tank, no hiding places, bomb the fish with every treatment that won't immediately kill it and try to nuke the pathogens off" approach. That works fine for dry rock, and is iffy at best on everything else.

[mcarroll]

On 10/8/2022 at 11:16 AM, Tired said:

Which of course has the potential

That's one of those statistical statements....

 

With the same probability levels in mind we could say: "Going outside has the potential to get me struck by lightning."

 

Yes, there's a potential.  But it is low enough that we go outside all the time without thoughts of lightning – even on cloudy days.

 

On 10/8/2022 at 11:16 AM, Tired said:

, as he's a burrowing fish,

In general these kinds of fish (bottom dwellers/cryptics) have a SERIOUS slime coat that should make them pretty disease resistant, relatively speaking.

 

Not saying that should sway your opinion of how to act, but it's worth considering with the rest of your info!  🙂 

 

On 10/8/2022 at 11:16 AM, Tired said:

I appreciate your experience and the non-fearmongering-based input, but I think I'm going with a somewhat more proactive (or perhaps 'prophylactic' is a better word?) approach to QT and disease prevention than it seems like you prefer.

I even do it differently than I prefer sometimes – the situation dictates what is best, IME. 😉

 

That's why I try not to pre-dictate how any one fish is going to be handled – at least until I see them, all are destined for observational QT. (Which is where I can see 'em best!)

 

In my experience (including a pretty large all-saltwater retail shop) very, very few fish should require any kind of medical intervention.  Some do.  But very, very few on average.  Even fish that show signs of Ich or Velvet can, in most cases, recover on their own if overall conditions can be made favorable.  (Which takes a level of expertise.....not saying all of this is a foregone conclusion.)

 

There is one line of thinking that goes:  If there's nothing apparently wrong with the fish in the bag when you get it, put it in the display.   Simple as that.  It is best for the fish as it minimizes added stress from all the handling that's normally associated with getting a new fish.  We usually underestimate the impact of all the extra handling.  We also underestimate the contribution we make toward bringing home a healthy fish by simply being "choosey" about what you bring home.  "Choosey Mothers Choose Jif" ya know!!

https://youtu.be/6LOT78zhA5w (<-- fun link)

 

If you had a bad feeling about zero intervention (so-called "dump and pray"....not a name I'd use....just need to be a bit informed), then perform a freshwater dip on the fish for 5-15 minutes before adding to the display, if it is convenient for you AND the fish to do one.

 

We did this routinely for pretty much every fish that came to the store where I worked.  I think it went a long way toward helping the overall low rate of disease and death we always seemed to have.  The osmotic shock to the parasite is enough to knock most of them off of a partially compromised fish.  Doesn't kill the parasites, but it's doesn't have to since you will mechanically separate the fish from them in a few min....parasites go down the drain; fish to the tank.  In some cases, you can see the parasites with your naked eye since they fall off in groups.  A dark background under a clear container will help you see them, if there are any.  If you're more serious, it would be trivial to filter ALL of the dip water and look at the material caught by the filter under a microscope.  Shouldn't be necessary.  But might be pretty interesting, especially if you do get a sick fish.

 

Assuming the display isn't brand new or already overstocked (or some other problem) this "direct addition" works well most of the time, even on a marginal (but OK looking) fish.  

 

But if you have REAL reason to worry about your tank or existing fish – say it's a new tank; they are always disease prone – such as contracting something from the new fish, or vis versa, then I would suggest running a strong UV filter (≥0.33 watts/gallon), perhaps along with a micron filter.  So if you were running a 10 Gallon tank, you'd want a 5 watt (or greater) UV, for example.  Run the filter(combo) until you're done stocking fish and feel that the tank has achieved a level of harmony where the fish aren't stressed routinely anymore.  UV bulbs are typically good for 6-12 months of runtime, check the bulb rating for the specific UV unit you're able to buy....just like T5 and halide bulbs, same limits.  FYI, micro filters are typically wash-and-reuse-many-times, so are cheap to operate.  They need to be cleaned periodically, but usually not that frequently.

 

Both of these kinds of filters kill (or remove) parasites VERY effectively...enough to allow fish immune systems to heal and kick back in, preventing the fish from becoming overwhelmed by any parasitic surge.  See "Velvet (Amyloodinium) infections in fish can easily be avoided." and be sure to read the original article linked there.

 

Using an anti-parasitic reef-safe med (eg Ruby Reef products) is a good tertiary treatment to make the risk for the fish as low as possible.  They add a few percentage points of effectiveness to UV+micron which are each close to 100% effective already.

 

Again, this applies to fish that are apparently fine.  

 

Hopefully you're making every effort to avoid fish that have obvious problems.  But let's say you're buying sick fish for some reason.  Fish that are obviously having a problem might get a different course of action.  

 

Still a fresh water dip to begin with.  But then some treatment based on observed symptoms and what actual fish you are talking about at the time.

 

This is when we would want to have that Ed Noga book that I referred to earlier.  If you saw "powdery skin" on your new fish, for example, you could refer to Problem 21: Cryptocaryon.  You'd be reassured by the SIX different treatment options that are discussed, as well as other good, related analysis (specific dosage info; dosing methods, cautions, et al.) to give you ideas on the best way to proceed WITH YOUR FISH.  Some of the ideas in this book never get suggested in forums...yet some others in there will look VERY familiar. 😉  Remove that bias.  All of those options should be familiar to you. 👍  You will be inspired and much more able to help your fish....even if it turns out to be Velvet (Problem 27) or something else that's probably also covered in the book.   It's a really, really good book.  I see a few older editions on Amazon for around $70....2nd Edition is better and worth getting if you can find it used, but $70 is still worth it for the older one.  A new 2nd Edition hardback goes for $133 on Amazon, FYI.  (Kindle Edition: same cost)  $172 from the publisher, Wiley. That's not the most expensive thing in the universe, and maybe not so expensive at all compared to the cost of marine fish, eh?  😉 

 

As a last thought on the prophylactic treatment with a medication (eg Chloroquine Phosphate), I would reiterate the quote from the book (and note that there are several occurrences where the idea of prophylactic treatment IS discussed as a good option.  But not without reference to this base info.):

 

"The advantage of using prophylactic drug treatments during quarantine is not clear-cut because objective, scientific data demonstrating its efficacy is lacking."

 

In other words, it seems like a good idea on the surface, but so far that hasn't shown to actually be the case.  This gets discussed in the book.

 

Like me, he says in the book that selection of treatment almost always comes down to the exact situation at the time.  There are really only some rarified circumstances (for us) where you'd want to consider pre-medicating your animals when they appear to be fine.  (Which get discussed in the book too.)

 

 

[Tired]

Unfortunately, fish are smart. 

 

After a couple of transfers, they seem to have stopped hiding in the easily transferred straws, instead hiding UNDER the straws. I think they've caught on.

 

At least this method is relatively quick, and then I can pop them into a nice 10gal with rocks and shells and things.